Landlord, Rent Allowance, Single Parent and Revenue

Cavehill Red

I have a query I was hoping someone in here could help me with. A friend of mine's a single parent who is renting a house in Dublin through a leasing agent. She never got a rent book or tenancy agreement, but has been there over two years now and pays rent to the landlord via direct debit.

The agent, like many, has ceased to trade because of the downturn. The tenant was made unemployed last Autumn and is now reliant on welfare payments. She is struggling with the rent and sought to apply for rent allowance. The agent refused to handle the application and claimed to pass it on to the landlord. The landlord is now also refusing to discuss the matter.

As a result, my friend has gone through her meagre savings and redundancy payment struggling to pay her rent without any assistance.

A quick search by me found that the tenancy is not registered with the PRTB. I have every reason to suspect that the Revenue are unaware of this tenancy either.

My advice to my friend has been to inform both the PRTB and the Revenue about the tenancy, since the landlord will not consider signing the rent allowance forms. After all, she cannot afford to continue paying the rent on her own any longer without either employment or rent allowance assistance.

That will mean that she will have to leave, which she accepts. But at least the landlord will be forced to pay tax to the Revenue and possibly a fine for failing to register with the PRTB.

My question is: is this good advice of mine? Am I missing anything here? I don't want to get her into trouble. Ideally, she would be able to obtain rent allowance wherever she lives. She has paid plenty of tax over the years, is seeking work, and is entitled to assistance with her rent wherever she may live. Presented with this scenario, what would you advise the tenant to do?

ricman

First a landlord has a right to refuse to take rent allowance ,the max ra limit in dublin for a single mother is 930 ,rent can not be more than 930 per month
.Theres loads of landlords that will be happy to take on single mothers on ra.there s alot of paperwork for ra for a landlord ,it maybe nothing to do with tax at all.My advice is look round for landlords that take ra,get advice from threshold ,or centrecare ,they give a list every day of houses for rent that take ra.I understand if you are living in area x you may need to move to another area ,or rent a 2bed apartment.
I can see no benefit in threatening the landlord with the prtb, youir income is such you will need to go on the rent allowance scheme ,to get ra you have to apply for housing from your local authority/council.
Theres a myth out there ,loads a landlords are evading tax ITs not true,many landlords pay little tax, cos mortgage,plus expenses leave little net profit thats taxable .

Cavehill Red

ricman wrote: »

First a landlord has a right to refuse to take rent allowance ,the max ra limit in dublin for a single mother is 930 ,rent can not be more than 930 per month
.Theres loads of landlords that will be happy to take on single mothers on ra.there s alot of paperwork for ra for a landlord ,it maybe nothing to do with tax at all.My advice is look round for landlords that take ra,get advice from threshold ,or centrecare ,they give a list every day of houses for rent that take ra.I understand if you are living in area x you may need to move to another area ,or rent a 2bed apartment.
I can see no benefit in threatening the landlord with the prtb, youir income is such you will need to go on the rent allowance scheme ,to get ra you have to apply for housing from your local authority/council.
Theres a myth out there ,loads a landlords are evading tax ITs not true,many landlords pay little tax, cos mortgage,plus expenses leave little net profit thats taxable .

Ric, I'm not sure you're right. I've reviewed the rent allowance paperwork myself. It doesn't seem to be overly onerous to me. You seem to concur with my understanding that it is not possible (nor ought it be) to force a landlord to accept rent allowance. So my friend will have to move, and she accepts that.

However, I don't understand why you see no benefit in her informing the PRTB about the tenancy. It is a legal obligation on landlords to register their tenancies with the board as I understand it. It may be of no direct benefit to her to do so, but it will function to keep the landlord honest in future.

As for Revenue, the combination of no rentbook or tenancy agreement (despite repeated requests over a two year period) and failure to register with the PRTB suggests to me that this is not likely to be a tenancy (and concomitant income stream) which the Revenue are aware of.

Whatever about prevailing myths, as a taxpayer I resent the evasion of tax by others in the current climate of austerity, be that by landlords or anyone else.

If my friend must move in order to receive the assistance with her rent that she is entitled to claim, then I see no downside in her reporting this tenancy to both the PRTB and the Revenue to ensure that the landlord is fulfilling all of his legal responsibilities.

ztoical

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Ric, I'm not sure you're right. I've reviewed the rent allowance paperwork myself. It doesn't seem to be overly onerous to me. You seem to concur with my understanding that it is not possible (nor ought it be) to force a landlord to accept rent allowance. So my friend will have to move, and she accepts that.

However, I don't understand why you see no benefit in her informing the PRTB about the tenancy. It is a legal obligation on landlords to register their tenancies with the board as I understand it. It may be of no direct benefit to her to do so, but it will function to keep the landlord honest in future.

As for Revenue, the combination of no rentbook or tenancy agreement (despite repeated requests over a two year period) and failure to register with the PRTB suggests to me that this is not likely to be a tenancy (and concomitant income stream) which the Revenue are aware of.

Whatever about prevailing myths, as a taxpayer I resent the evasion of tax by others in the current climate of austerity, be that by landlords or anyone else.

If my friend must move in order to receive the assistance with her rent that she is entitled to claim, then I see no downside in her reporting this tenancy to both the PRTB and the Revenue to ensure that the landlord is fulfilling all of his legal responsibilities.

While I'm all for reporting LL who are avoiding tax I wouldn't go assuming that the LL is avoiding tax just because you couldn't find a record of the tenancy with the PRTB. Their website is not the most well kept place so you'd or rather your friend would be better contacting them direct to confirm. As the LL has been paid by DD and not cash in hand it would cast doubt on wither they are avoiding tax or not.

Has she told the LL that she can't afford to stay without applying for rent allowance? The LL may change their mind rather then lose a good tenant. Also has your friend spoken to anyone at that SW to make sure she can get RA? Is she on the housing list? As she's no rent book and no lease she needs to make sure to have copies of her bank statements showing she's been paying rent for at least 6 months. They may also ask for something in writing from the LL to prove this.

As she never signed a lease she has a part 4 tenancy and as such needs to give 56 days notice that she is moving.

Ray Palmer

Cavehill Red wrote: »

If my friend must move in order to receive the assistance with her rent that she is entitled to claim, then I see no downside in her reporting this tenancy to both the PRTB and the Revenue to ensure that the landlord is fulfilling all of his legal responsibilities.

I don't see why you decide to police this issue. None of your business in any way and you may very likely be wrong when the matters is investigated. The revenue do not investigate everybody who is reported as avoiding tax.

You may be right on the PRTB but that is just a technicality if he has actually been acting as a good landlord abiding by the rules.

As can be seen here on boards, dealing with the HSE about rent allowance can be really unpleasant and many landlords don't want the hassle. Nothing to do with tax or not. Your friend can still claim tax allowance for rent. That is in effect reporting the house as a rental property and will be a better record to pursue the landlord than an actual reporting on what you suspect as tax fraud but have no proof of.

There is actually no upside to your suggestion but there is spite and vengeance suggested which does have a down side.

Cavehill Red

ztoical wrote: »

While I'm all for reporting LL who are avoiding tax I wouldn't go assuming that the LL is avoiding tax just because you couldn't find a record of the tenancy with the PRTB. Their website is not the most well kept place so you'd or rather your friend would be better contacting them direct to confirm. As the LL has been paid by DD and not cash in hand it would cast doubt on wither they are avoiding tax or not.

Has she told the LL that she can't afford to stay without applying for rent allowance? The LL may change their mind rather then lose a good tenant. Also has your friend spoken to anyone at that SW to make sure she can get RA? Is she on the housing list? As she's no rent book and no lease she needs to make sure to have copies of her bank statements showing she's been paying rent for at least 6 months. They may also ask for something in writing from the LL to prove this.

As she never signed a lease she has a part 4 tenancy and as such needs to give 56 days notice that she is moving.

Thanks for that. I'll advise her to call the PRTB about the tenancy to confirm whether it is registered with them or not. She has the bank statements and also a letter from the landlord (sent in relation to an issue of house maintenance) in which he acknowledges her tenancy, so it would not be problematic to demonstrate the tenancy.

I don't know if she has spoken with Social Welfare about her entitlement to rent allowance or if she is registered for social housing. She believes that, as a single parent dependent entirely upon benefits, that she would be eligible, but obviously she would presumably have to register for social housing with Dublin City Council first.

If she does have to move, would she be entitled to seek rent allowance immediately, or would she be required to build up six months of tenancy first in the new address?

Cavehill Red

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I don't see why you decide to police this issue. None of your business in any way and you may very likely be wrong when the matters is investigated. The revenue do not investigate everybody who is reported as avoiding tax.

I didn't decide to police anything. A friend asked me for my advice. I've offered it, and am now seeking the wisdom of others in here before offering further advice.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You may be right on the PRTB but that is just a technicality if he has actually been acting as a good landlord abiding by the rules.

I'm not sure that failing to provide a tenancy agreement or rentbook is abiding by the rules to be honest.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

As can be seen here on boards, dealing with the HSE about rent allowance can be really unpleasant and many landlords don't want the hassle. Nothing to do with tax or not. Your friend can still claim tax allowance for rent. That is in effect reporting the house as a rental property and will be a better record to pursue the landlord than an actual reporting on what you suspect as tax fraud but have no proof of.

There is actually no upside to your suggestion but there is spite and vengeance suggested which does have a down side.

Well, from my perspective, the upside is ensuring that, like me, those with a responsibility to pay tax are paying that tax. There is no upside for my friend whether he pays tax on this income or not, or whether he is investigated or not. That is true.

I reject your suggestion of spite and vengeance incidentally. It is hardly spiteful to seek to ensure that people obey the law of the land. I see no harm in ensuring that the Revenue are aware of this income stream. If they are already aware of it, then nothing changes. If they aren't, then there is a potential income due to the state at a time when our coffers badly need it.

ricman

i presume the tenant was working, and she claimed tax allowance for rent
as most people do.Unless you rent to a friend or relative i can see no way for a landlord to evade paying tax as most people claim tax credits as a tenant,if they are working even part time.
If the house is in a posh area ,easy to rent ,theres little incentive for a landlord to accept ra ,as ra rates may be under the average rent for that area.

tanyabond

ricman wrote: »

i presume the tenant was working, and she claimed tax allowance for rent
as most people do.Unless you rent to a friend or relative i can see no way for a landlord to evade paying tax as most people claim tax credits as a tenant,if they are working even part time.
If the house is in a posh area ,easy to rent ,theres little incentive for a landlord to accept ra ,as ra rates may be under the average rent for that area.

I could be wrong, but if she hasn't earned enough to pay tax, she wouldn't be claiming tax allowance as you can't redeem it against universal social charge...

Cavehill Red

The tenant was working until last Autumn. I'm unaware as to whether she was claiming the tax allowance on rent or not for last year or previous years. Of course, she can do so now retrospectively. Unfortunately, from her perspective, that sum is not going to be sufficient to sustain her in her current accommodation long-term. But every little helps, I guess. Certainly, she wouldn't be entitled to claim it for this year, as she has not been working this year.

The house is not by any means in a 'posh area', and the rent appears to me to be, if anything, a little above the going rent for the area.

odds_on

Your friend has a perfectly legal tenancy agreement - it is called a Periodic Agreement. Usually periodic tenancies are informal oral agreements. time. The period of the tenancy may be weekly or monthly depending on when you pay the rent.

If a periodic tenancy is oral, it is covered by the law appertaining to Part 4 tenancies plus any special conditions agreed upon, however, if it is oral this may be difficult to prove.
A written periodic agreement may have similar conditions to a fixed term agreement.

As regards a Rent Book, see post #13 below

Ray Palmer

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I didn't decide to police anything. A friend asked me for my advice. I've offered it, and am now seeking the wisdom of others in here before offering further advice.

You certainly are suggesting you are going to police this yourself and reinterated your point below. I highlighted it for you:rolleyes:

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'm not sure that failing to provide a tenancy agreement or rentbook is abiding by the rules to be honest.

Your friend should have ensured she got the agreement from the letting agent but it is only a technicality, rent book is not required. I am sure you always make sure everything you do is perfectly in order but others are just not that well organized.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Well, from my perspective, the upside is ensuring that, like me, those with a responsibility to pay tax are paying that tax. There is no upside for my friend whether he pays tax on this income or not, or whether he is investigated or not. That is true.

I reject your suggestion of spite and vengeance incidentally. It is hardly spiteful to seek to ensure that people obey the law of the land. I see no harm in ensuring that the Revenue are aware of this income stream. If they are already aware of it, then nothing changes. If they aren't, then there is a potential income due to the state at a time when our coffers badly need it.

This shows you seem to want to police the law and as there is no upside other than civic duty it comes across as quite spiteful.

So here is the advice mind your own business suggest your friend be a grown up and take care of her own affairs in prompt time such as getting an agreement when she should and claiming tax back that she is entitled to rather than waiting a year or so.
You should also realize that suggesting reporting anybody due to your suspicions that does not effect you in any direct manner can and will be seen as spite. I doubt you report people in every other walk of life when you seem them breaking "the law of the land". Spitefully petty actions do a person a lot of harm and it is mostly the person performing the act rather than anybody else.

odds_on

In my previous post (above) I was incorrect about rent books and the following is correct:
Every tenant is entitled to a Rent Bookor another appropriate document to comply with the Housing (Rent Books) Regulations 1993 which must be supplied by the landlord. Apart from having space to record rent payments, it must also provide many other details of the tenancy and the landlord.

When the rent is paid in cash, a rent book is vital for both the tenant and the landlord to show when and how much rent was paid. However, if the rent is paid through a bank (direct debit or standing order) there is a bank record of the payment and it is not necessary to complete a rent book. In this respect, many written lease agreements include a clause that the lease agreement also acts as the rent book.

Cavehill Red

Ray, I'll be ignoring your posts because you don't seem to have anything to contribute to the discussion.
Does anyone else have any information on whether my friend would be eligible to claim rent allowance in a new tenancy immediately, or whether she would have to be there for the six months period first?

edellc

regardless of whether or not the LL is registered your friend is entitled to RA if she has the following
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/rent_supplement.html

the most important are:
if her rent is equal to or below the level for the county she resides in
has bank statements for the last six months to show she has been paying rent

she needs to go to the community welfare officer get her to print off the forms on the link above fill them in and tell CWO that LL refuses to sign them after all thats not your friends fault

RA is an agreement between the applicant and the CWO and nothing to do with the LL it is paid to the applicant weekly or monthly through the post office the PPS number of LL is required for social welfare/tax purposes however they can track him with just a name/address but that is not for you friend to worry about

she is entitled to RA so go to the CWO asap

edellc

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Ray, I'll be ignoring your posts because you don't seem to have anything to contribute to the discussion.
Does anyone else have any information on whether my friend would be eligible to claim rent allowance in a new tenancy immediately, or whether she would have to be there for the six months period first?

sorry regarding new tenancy as long as she can prove she has been paying rent privately for 6 out of the last 12 months then there should be no problem regarding RA however if she cant do that then once in the new tenancy the six months start from there

however as she is on welfare and used her saving and redundancy paying rent so far i doubt she can continue on for another six months so as per my post above tell her to go to the CWO now

Cavehill Red

Thanks for the information. She first asked the letting agent in December about this. It's now May and she's gone through all her redundancy in the meanwhile paying rent.

ricman

She should go to the cwo as soon as possible, as far as i know they usually deal with rent allowance on mondays ,wednesdays depending on what area shes, in ,She,ll need help from the cwo with a deposit for her new residence.She should go to the local authority soon to apply to go on the housing list, eg the dublin housing dept is at wood quay office, ground floor, on the left of the council building theres an entrance at the left, rear of the building ,the housing dept, is just past reception,ground floor,they close at 4pm, last time i was there.
Certainly in dublin ,theres plenty of houses going for rent under the ra system.OR you can go for a 2bed apartment if thats her preference.
I can think of at least 5 reasons why landlords refuse rent allowance which have nothing to do with tax evasion.