Implications of Bin Laden's death?

nacho libre

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No photos and an unconfirmed statement.......I'm convinced!

Ah yes clearly the CIA planted these stories! Osama is holed up in Langley, awaiting to undergo plastic surgery, and is set for a sedentary life of retirement somewhere exotic! He's probably laughing his head with his handlers at the whole thing as he's reading about himself.

Liam Byrne

nacho libre wrote: »

Ah yes clearly the CIA planted these stories!

It's not that long ago that they planted stories about WMDs, so the rest of your post is waffle aimed at pretending that it's a natural extension of what I said.

You claimed that people who wanted photographic proof would be satisfied, and I merely quoted an exact paragraph from the link you provided......why did you start writing irrelevant fiction in an attempt to discredit that ?

"posted on sites used by the group" is like something Sky News would make a day-long special out of.....it's not proof or backed up by any means, and doesn't even try to claim that it was "possibly posted by the group".

wes

Hmm if he was still actively planning attacks, that pretty much clears up any legal arguement from what I understand, as that would make him an active leader of Al Qaeda, and as such a valid military target.

nacho libre

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It's not that long ago that they planted stories about WMDs, so the rest of your post is waffle aimed at pretending that it's a natural extension of what I said.

You claimed that people who wanted photographic proof would be satisfied, and I merely quoted an exact paragraph from the link you provided......why did you start writing waffle in an attempt to discredit that ?

I never said they would be satisfied with photos. You maybe satisfied, some people however will still claim that the photos are doctored and that he's not dead. I'm poking fun because i believe the idea that it's a conspiracy isnt plausible. If this statement is authentic, then Al Qaeda believing he's dead should be proof enough of his demise. As obviously it would be in their interest to deny he was dead.

whatstherush

Al-Qaida just confirmed he's dead or at least that he was holed up in Abbotabad and is not there anymore.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/06/osama-bin-laden-dead-al-qaeda_n_858440.html

Liam Byrne

nacho libre wrote: »

I never said they would be satisfied with photos. You maybe satisfied, some people however will still claim that the photos are doctored and that he's not dead.

Which I said myself. Hell, if they were as blurry and unconvincing as the "plane hitting the Pentagon" footage, then they'd be useless.

Then again, some people believed the lies about WMDs with zero proof, so you can never underestimate the gullibility of some folk.

nacho libre wrote: »

I'm poking fun because i believe the idea that it's a conspiracy isnt plausible.

Again, agreed and stated.

nacho libre wrote: »

If this statement is authentic, then Al Qaeda believing he's dead should be proof enough of his demise.

Agreed. However my point was that the link isn't confirmed as being from them.

nacho libre wrote: »

As obviously it would be in their interest to deny he was dead.

You sure about that ? The most wanted man in the world with everyone looking for him ? A shave and a haircut and he could work away with his sickening plots to kill innocents.

Mr.Micro

wes wrote: »

Hmm if he was still actively planning attacks, that pretty much clears up any legal arguement from what I understand, as that would make him an active leader of Al Qaeda, and as such a valid military target.

Them Americans think of everything

wes

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Them Americans think of everything

Well, in the case of Al Qaeda, they have made it clear they want to attack the US several times, so I would say the claim is true.

Now, if the US is lieing, it will eventually come out, one way or another.

Mr.Micro

wes wrote: »

Well, in the case of Al Qaeda, they have made it clear they want to attack the US several times, so I would say the claim is true.

Now, if the US is lieing, it will eventually come out, one way or another.

I really believe OBL is dead but as to when he was killed it is speculative IMO. I tend to take a lot of things that the US say with a large pinch of salt. Indeed I doubted there was a firefight at the time, and I was castigated by some posters on here who believe every word without question, turns out I was right.....no firefight at all. I think that there was a lot of staging in the announcement and bigger things going on elsewhere?

We have had a complete flip side of the event , well almost OBL is killed in all versions. It makes one think that the outfit sent in to kill him were lucky to do so, as they appear to have been incompetent in everything else, mostly their recall of the event, lucky they did not shoot each other.

wes

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I really believe OBL is dead but as to when he was killed it is speculative IMO. I tend to take a lot of things that the US say with a large pinch of salt. Indeed I doubted there was a firefight at the time, and I was castigated by some posters on here who believe every word without question, turns out I was right.....no firefight at all. I think that there was a lot of staging in the announcement and bigger things going on elsewhere?

Well, again I would not be surprised if the US lied about things, but as it stands, we know he was killed as per US claims, as it was confirmed by Bin Laden's daughter via the Pakistani's.

Jonny7

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I really believe OBL is dead but as to when he was killed it is speculative IMO. I tend to take a lot of things that the US say with a large pinch of salt. Indeed I doubted there was a firefight at the time, and I was castigated by some posters on here who believe every word without question, turns out I was right.....no firefight at all. I think that there was a lot of staging in the announcement and bigger things going on elsewhere?

We have had a complete flip side of the event , well almost OBL is killed in all versions. It makes one think that the outfit sent in to kill him were lucky to do so, as they appear to have been incompetent in everything else, mostly their recall of the event, lucky they did not shoot each other.

Because of paranoia of the US constantly lying, putting our propaganda, etc (which is more than true) then any US event/situation is generally analysed so much more than 'other' events/situations

When the Madrid attacks happened, I watched it (as I watch many events) unfold live on several TV channels.. the rumours, stories, evidence, etc, etc all changed dynamically - as they do in any story, any event, any situation - its a natural thing

Yet it was Madrid, Spain, people just accepted these descrepencies

But if that had been in the US - then, obvious results..

The white house spokesman said there was a 7th bomb! but oh my god there wasn't.. look.. you see.. its a lie.. its alll a giant lie! (sorry I've been reading the conspiracy theory forums again.. jesus christ)

Any situation, where anything happens, there is so much initial misinformation, specualation, rumours, etc, etc, etc, etc

Ever since 911/Iraq 03 - people are EXTRA ULTRA skeptical and cynical about anything the US puts out - fair enough - but **** me its so painful at this stage

The white house should know this by now

They should have released the photos/videos/DNA test/facial recognition/Everything the day they got him - or maybe they have just a fetish for propagating the conspiracy theories though I don't know

Al Qaeda admitted the guy died in that attack - but so what, people still not gonna believe it. Pics released now? they were doctored. Video? doctored, blah etc and so on.

People who are cynical of the US (myself included to a certain degree) are becoming worse than religious nuts at this stage.

Liam Byrne

On mobile so can't quote the immediately-preceding post, but there's truth in there.

There's also the fact that yes, it DOES suit the US to drip-feed stuff so that the constant questioning and revelations become tiresome; it allows them to write off the muddied valid stuff as conspiracy theories.

FF did the same since Sept 2008 and even I'm sick of watching and hearing weekly depressing revelations. It's also done every budget here - press release ("leak") a massive cut/tax, gauge the response, and then let people go "phew!" when the eventual (but still dire) truth comes out, making them "un-realise" how badly they've acted.


So I believe it's a deliberate and measured tactic.

walrusgumble

nacho libre wrote: »

Ah yes clearly the CIA planted these stories! Osama is holed up in Langley, awaiting to undergo plastic surgery, and is set for a sedentary life of retirement somewhere exotic! He's probably laughing his head with his handlers at the whole thing as he's reading about himself.

Ah so that is the next episode of South Park? Good stuff. Hope they bring out a new Film like the one with Saddam

walrusgumble

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Alternatively, join the US forces and travel the world and kill/maim/destroy and do not even tally the kills as they are the enemy.

As a westerner, who would you prefer to see, America World Police or those lads in tea towels?

Mr.Micro

Jonny7 wrote: »

People who are cynical of the US (myself included to a certain degree) are becoming worse than religious nuts at this stage.

Absolute rubbish. We are not all lemmings. Some of us think outside the box on occasion and the US is no saint or a benign nation that is incapable of lies, deceit, atrocity just as it is capable of good, virtue and freedom. It does all equally well.

Mr.Micro

walrusgumble wrote: »

As a westerner, who would you prefer to see, America World Police or those lads in tea towels?

Neither, both are bias and act out of pure self righteousness and belief in what they do is always right....for all. Your very reference to tea towels shows your bias.

Medu

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I really believe OBL is dead but as to when he was killed it is speculative IMO. I tend to take a lot of things that the US say with a large pinch of salt. Indeed I doubted there was a firefight at the time, and I was castigated by some posters on here who believe every word without question, turns out I was right.....no firefight at all. I think that there was a lot of staging in the announcement and bigger things going on elsewhere?

We have had a complete flip side of the event , well almost OBL is killed in all versions. It makes one think that the outfit sent in to kill him were lucky to do so, as they appear to have been incompetent in everything else, mostly their recall of the event, lucky they did not shoot each other.

So what you do think happened? Maybe Bush's admin killed OBL years ago but felt that his presidency was such a success that he would let the next president, whom was almost certainly going to be a democrat, take the 'glory'? And of course on top of that Obama's admin felt that they needed to make it believable so they went and raided a complex in a sovereign state, without their permission, and risk been intercepted instead of bombing the crap out of some cave in Afghanistan that would upset nobody. And finally- they had to hope that AQ would play along and not give the game away...

OR
maybe, just maybe, they killed him last weekend.

walrusgumble

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Neither, both are bias and act out of pure self righteousness and belief in what they do is always right....for all. Your very reference to tea towels shows your bias.

My reference to tea towels was tongue in cheek, not a nice one mind, and for those who wear these items of clothing as a symbol of their time honoured tradition, I say sorry. (I was watching a few clips of that film Team America earlier, yes a bit childish)

Did I really make a biased reference in my last post?. I referred to America as "World Police", and I assure you, I did so sarcastically. I take it you did see that film Team Amercia? Hardly that flattering to America, was it? They are as bad as each other.

I never want want to live on the moon, we would wreck it.

Mr.Micro

walrusgumble wrote: »

My reference to tea towels was tongue in cheek, not a nice one mind, and for those who wear these items of clothing as a symbol of their time honoured tradition, I say sorry. (I was watching a few clips of that film Team America earlier, yes a bit childish)

Did I really make a biased reference in my last post?. I referred to America as "World Police", and I assure you, I did so sarcastically. I take it you did see that film Team Amercia? Hardly that flattering to America, was it? They are as bad as each other.

I never want want to live on the moon, we would wreck it.

My apologies then if I misinterpreted your post.

Jonny7

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Absolute rubbish. We are not all lemmings. Some of us think outside the box on occasion and the US is no saint or a benign nation that is incapable of lies, deceit, atrocity just as it is capable of good, virtue and freedom. It does all equally well.

No its not equal anymore, certainly not on the internet - I don't see 65 pages of threads on France in Ivory Coast, or Russia in Georgia.. instead of rational intelligent debate, its turned in rabid fanatical ranting along the lines of -

"Wake up sheeple, can't you see what the US is doing, its not the eternal beacon of truth, hope and justice, its all a trick, expand your mind man, the lies, the White House, the CIA, Rumsfeld, blah, blah, blah, etc, etc, etc, etc"

Okay! we get it

This isn't 2003

There was a normal intelligent debate on Libya, a thread, normal.. typical.. informative.. remember those?

Then the US/UK/UN/NATO get involved - and in come all the freaking post911, post Iraq, documentary watching newly enlighted ones screeching on about how evil the US is - yes.. ok... we get it -

Its the same people, over and over, gigantic axe to grind with the US/UK/whoever - okay.. we... get... it... the USA is evil...

But so are other countries, they act in something called 'self-interest' ... "but, but, splutter.. the US, monte santo, blackwater, Rove.. rant.. splutter...."

yes.. we get it.. other countries do it to, you know.. "other countries".. as in not the US/UK/Israel .. every single time

People religiously focused on the 'evil' of 3 or 4 select countries

Doesn't help the debate on anything, they are getting worse than the rightwing hardline flagf*ckers at this stage

jesus christ what happened to objectivity

metrovelvet

People get sucked into symapthising with the underdog.

Foolish move. Sometimes the underdog is an asshole.

Nodin

True.

Nobody seems to tackle the issue of what to do when his followers/the odd nut start beheading hostages and conducting suicidal beslan style sieges either.

nacho libre

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You sure about that ? The most wanted man in the world with everyone looking for him ? A shave and a haircut and he could work away with his sickening plots to kill innocents.

I think he is of more use to them as a symbolic figure at this stage, so to admit he's dead is a psychological blow. Al Zawaqri(?), and the guy in Yemen, are reputed to be the chief military planners of Al Qaeda

gandalf

metrovelvet wrote: »

People get sucked into symapthising with the underdog.

Foolish move. Sometimes the underdog is an asshole.

Nothing to do with that at all in this case from my opinion. OBL deserved to be punished. My issue here is the worlds policeman has lowered themselves to his level by not following due process and putting him through a trial first and showing this man for the coward that he was.

The US authorities by their actions have basically said that the rule of law can be set aside if the goal is right. Surely this is playing into the hands of every terrorist in the world because they of course will see their aims as being worth putting aside all the rules for and even more dangerously give that message to the general public in the areas where these terrorists are active.

No point in preaching regime change and the rule of law when you are fully prepared to put aside your ideals and laws when what you consider an exception occurs. The question is how long before the scope of exceptions is widened in this so-called "War on Terror".

I like America and Americans, I have been there five times and I do plan on visiting again with my family but I worry their leaders are selling them short in the long term and also have eroded the freedoms that they proclaim they are protecting by their actions. Do you reckon the Patriot Act will be rescinded now that "public enemy no.1" is gone? Somehow I doubt it, another bogeyman will be found in due course!

Mr.Micro

Jonny7 wrote: »

No its not equal anymore, certainly not on the internet - I don't see 65 pages of threads on France in Ivory Coast, or Russia in Georgia.. instead of rational intelligent debate, its turned in rabid fanatical ranting along the lines of -

"Wake up sheeple, can't you see what the US is doing, its not the eternal beacon of truth, hope and justice, its all a trick, expand your mind man, the lies, the White House, the CIA, Rumsfeld, blah, blah, blah, etc, etc, etc, etc"

Okay! we get it

This isn't 2003

There was a normal intelligent debate on Libya, a thread, normal.. typical.. informative.. remember those?

Then the US/UK/UN/NATO get involved - and in come all the freaking post911, post Iraq, documentary watching newly enlighted ones screeching on about how evil the US is - yes.. ok... we get it -

Its the same people, over and over, gigantic axe to grind with the US/UK/whoever - okay.. we... get... it... the USA is evil...

But so are other countries, they act in something called 'self-interest' ... "but, but, splutter.. the US, monte santo, blackwater, Rove.. rant.. splutter...."

yes.. we get it.. other countries do it to, you know.. "other countries".. as in not the US/UK/Israel .. every single time

People religiously focused on the 'evil' of 3 or 4 select countries

Doesn't help the debate on anything, they are getting worse than the rightwing hardline flagf*ckers at this stage

jesus christ what happened to objectivity

Hello, who is not being objective??? Its you in this case and your one sidedness. I cited the good and the bad of the US, but you see only good on the part of the US. Criticism can be launched at all others except the US and that is what you mean by being objective? You need to check your understanding of what subjectivity and objectivity mean? I get it do not debate when its the US involved just roll with it Uncle Sam knows best.....?

nacho libre

Jonny7 wrote: »

jesus christ what happened to objectivity

should we have open prisons then? i don't see how trying to hold people to account for their crimes, whether they be russian, American, or the burmese junta is lacking objectivity?

metrovelvet

gandalf wrote: »

Nothing to do with that at all in this case from my opinion. OBL deserved to be punished. My issue here is the worlds policeman has lowered themselves to his level by not following due process and putting him through a trial first and showing this man for the coward that he was.

The US authorities by their actions have basically said that the rule of law can be set aside if the goal is right. Surely this is playing into the hands of every terrorist in the world because they of course will see their aims as being worth putting aside all the rules for and even more dangerously give that message to the general public in the areas where these terrorists are active.

No point in preaching regime change and the rule of law when you are fully prepared to put aside your ideals and laws when what you consider an exception occurs. The question is how long before the scope of exceptions is widened in this so-called "War on Terror".

I like America and Americans, I have been there five times and I do plan on visiting again with my family but I worry their leaders are selling them short in the long term and also have eroded the freedoms that they proclaim they are protecting by their actions. Do you reckon the Patriot Act will be rescinded now that "public enemy no.1" is gone? Somehow I doubt it, another bogeyman will be found in due course!

Due process? Trial?

He was a combatant who declared war on the US, not a civilian. Different rules apply. Manic Moran more up on this than I am but he has explained this a couple of times already.

The patriot act has some good things it in and some pretty crappy things got tagged along in it.

They wont rescind it as long as Al Q is still in operation. If Al Q has all the hallmarks of an institution, then it can outlive the people who occupy its seats, that is the nature of insitution. The question is does it qualify as one?

I still hold my opinion that a lot of youngish lefties sympathise with underdogs, still in the throes of teenage rebellion and want to see the perceived authorities lose their authority, without thinking the underdog can sometimes be the badguy.

To follow Al Q's law, Bin Laden would have been beheaded live on the internet.

gandalf

metrovelvet wrote: »

Due process? Trial?

Yes it is the way civilised nations normally deal with criminals which is what I would classify OBL and his lackeys as.

He was a combatant who declared war on the US, not a civilian. Different rules apply. Manic Moran more up on this than I am but he has explained this a couple of times already.

And who labelled him as a combatant? The US authorities, they have used that term to carry out an awful lot of human rights abuse since September 11 including acts against a number of people who after the fact turned out to have nothing to do with the crimes they were accused of. In fact most of these people have never been formally charged.

The patriot act has some good things it in and some pretty crappy things got tagged along in it.

Care to list the good things the act has brought in?

They wont rescind it as long as Al Q is still in operation. If Al Q has all the hallmarks of an institution, then it can outlive the people who occupy its seats, that is the nature of insitution. The question is does it qualify as one?

Again Al Q as you call it is over estimated in importance. All it is and was is a communications network between a whole group of disparate terrorist organisations whose only real link was being Islamic in some nature. It certainly is not the bogeyman that US have projected it to be.

I still hold my opinion that a lot of youngish lefties sympathise with underdogs, still in the throes of teenage rebellion and want to see the perceived authorities lose their authority, without thinking the underdog can sometimes be the badguy.

Fair enough that is a valid observation but I wouldn't even label them as lefties they are just rebelling for the sake of it.

To follow Al Q's law, Bin Laden would have been beheaded live on the internet.

So shooting an unarmed man in the face is a legitimate way for a country that preaches the rule of law to other countries to behave.

Personally I prefer someone to stand trial, be shown for the coward and criminal that they are and then to be punished based on the judgement of that court.

Personally I believe these actions have cheated the cause of justice and replaced it was the easy base act of vengeance. An act that is not becoming of a nation that believes it is a template of democracy for others to follow. I suppose I am in the minority that believes a civilised country should have standards that are higher than those of common criminals who masquerade as terrorist.

Jonny7

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Hello, who is not being objective??? Its you in this case and your one sidedness. I cited the good and the bad of the US, but you see only good on the part of the US. Criticism can be launched at all others except the US and that is what you mean by being objective? You need to check your understanding of what subjectivity and objectivity mean? I get it do not debate when its the US involved just roll with it Uncle Sam knows best.....?

If bias is objecting to assassination without a trial then I am bias and objecting to US foreign policy from a country that calls itself a democracy that practices rendition and torture, then I am bias again, and for wanting to respect human rights then I am bias again.

I don't believe everything the Americans say or simply believe that they are always the good guys. Its good to question things and not go along like all the other lemmings looking the other way. Bin Laden knew too much and it could have proven embarrassing for the US to allow him to talk. I suspect he may have been in custody since last year and tortured for that time, his body a mess so buried at sea. I will never support a nation that endorses torture and murder in the name of the phony war on terror.

You believe what you want. Who is the US to dish out justice around the world without a trial or any charges laid. Who should dish out justice to the US for all the atrocities it has perpetrated? That is what international law and courts are for not just summary execution to whoever the US decides is deserving. What a world to live in....it defies justice and logic.

If you look at my post you will see I am against releasing of such photos. It is not just the US troops who get killed its usually far more innocent people from bomb attacks... but hell they don't matter as they are not American?

What a crock of s*it. We all came down in the last shower of rain. Still it will keep the US public in fear and under the thumb, and the war mongers aroused. Any new military /defence budgets will be passed without question and Homeland security and the rest will be beefed up. Fortress USA will continue. What a way to live. Us here in the rest of the world live with the threat ( indeed have lived as well in the past IRA and the rest) of al-qaeda but do we go crazy about it, no. I am very disappointed with Obama and he has continued on where Bush left off, I really thought he was a better
person.

Alternatively, join the US forces and travel the world and kill/maim/destroy and do not even tally the kills as they are the enemy

and then finally..

Absolute rubbish. We are not all lemmings. Some of us think outside the box on occasion and the US is no saint or a benign nation that is incapable of lies, deceit, atrocity just as it is capable of good, virtue and freedom. It does all equally well

Well, when you say you "cited the good and the bad of the US", by good, I think you mean several words.. maybe I am missing something, but just doesn't seem very objective in the context of the whole thing

Look, none of us are totally unbiased, but jesus christ, as I said before, we get the whole 'US is evil' thing

My point is that its kinda hypocritical, I never see posters displaying the same "passion" against Russian, or French, or Congalese hypocrisy. Its got an almost fervant edge to it if you know what I mean.

Anyway, back on thread and on a more selfish note, I hope the full true story of the last 10 years of his life will emerge - very interested in that

Mr.Micro

Jonny7 wrote: »

and then finally..



Well, when you say you "cited the good and the bad of the US", by good, I think you mean several words.. maybe I am missing something, but just doesn't seem very objective in the context of the whole thing

Look, none of us are totally unbiased, but jesus christ, as I said before, we get the whole 'US is evil' thing

My point is that its kinda hypocritical, I never see posters displaying the same "passion" against Russian, or French, or Congalese hypocrisy. Its got an almost fervant edge to it if you know what I mean.

Anyway, back on thread and on a more selfish note, I hope the full true story of the last 10 years of his life will emerge - very interested in that

Hmmm ....I don't think I called the US evil anywhere in my posts. By referring to other countries I would condemn equally for their actions. I am not limited to the US, indeed if Ireland was conducting actions abroad I would be just as critical, just as I was very critical of Ireland in allowing rendition flights. Objective I try to be and I posted that the US does good as well as bad.