Cheap target ammo

fish slapped

On Friday I met up with John Kavanagh of Fingal Sports to purchase some MillSurp. ammo to feed my AI.

I purchased 100 rounds of German MEN black spot sniper ammo. here's how I got on with it:

Rifle: Accuracy International - AE. 1 in 12" twist
Scope: Edgar Brothers fixed 20X42.
Front rest: Harris BRS bipod.
NO rear rest. Firing from a bench.

Conditions: wind of 15 to 20 mph from 1 o'clock, gusting to 30+. Dust swirlling in front of target boards.

For the test I shot at 100 meters and 200 meters I didn't go any further as the wind would not allow the ammo to show it's best in my hands and there was an important rugby match (Com'n Leinster!!). I'll try it at 300 at a further date.

148gr men 7.62X51mm mill. surp. The first thing that struck me was these rounds are coated in a nickel wash!! I hadn't seen this before and was curious on how the would suit my barrel .





Some of the brass had reacted to the cardboard :



But the cases seemed to have held their integrity. They are of 1992 vintage. I have used South African R1M1 milsurp from 1981 and had not seen this type of reaction, so I think it must be down to long term storage conditions.

100 Meters:

At this range the men held steadily under 1/2 inch at around .4". Point of impact was approx 2" higher than the SA R1M1 which had it in line with HPS 155gr target ammo. So similar velocities.






I must note on some cases some force was needed to open the bolt but nothing to sever, stock hold and cheek hold need not be broken to do so. Perhaps some one with more knowledge could explain this.

200 Meters

At 200 the wind conditions were much the same with constant wind and gusts up to 30+ mph.



5 shot group at 200 was a little over 1.1"



3 shot group at 200 was 0.85" with 2 through one hole and third to the right.

So at a price, that would bring a smile to your face, of 100 for €70, would I recommend this ammo yes definitely if your comfortable shooting 7.62 in your .308, which is another argument I'm not getting in to.

Milsurp and cleaning!!

I know most would say mill surp is only dirty old cack and they would not put it through their barrel, but upon cleaning after the MEN I was surprised at how clean the barrel was after 34 rounds.



Hope this might be of some use to someone.

Fish

Cass

Thats some good shooting with, and excuse what may seem like an insult, some less than great ammo.

I notice you said about hard extractions. I immediately think of over charged loads however with the ammo being mil-surp i would say its the brass. Either way its something to watch, and if i can be fairly blunt, keep the hell away from that ammo.

No offence to John, i've bought from him myself, but the rifle is an expensive precision tool, and will not only work better with better quality ammo, but deserves it.

On a lighter note its good that she groups even that well with the ammo and i'd love to see her on some Lapua Scenars or Bergers.

Congrats.

leupold90

I've tried Mil Surp ammo from an Accuracy Int AE rifle before, groups were poor but it was only standard ball ammo in fairness.

Noticed some rounds were difficult to extract but like your experience nothing too severe.

Is your barrel stamped 7.62x51? If so shouldn't be any bother with 7.62 rounds.

€70 / 100 is a good price. The ball ammo I bought was €100 / 100 and that was about 3 years ago!

gunhappy_ie

Ezridax wrote: »

Thats some good shooting with, and excuse what may seem like an insult, some less than great ammo.

I notice you said about hard extractions. I immediately think of over charged loads however with the ammo being mil-surp i would say its the brass. Either way its something to watch, and if i can be fairly blunt, keep the hell away from that ammo.

No offence to John, i've bought from him myself, but the rifle is an expensive precision tool, and will not only work better with better quality ammo, but deserves it.

On a lighter note its good that she groups even that well with the ammo and i'd love to see her on some Lapua Scenars or Bergers.

Congrats.

Relax, The AIs are a great platform for 90% of ammo thats out there. Remember there designed with ruggedness in mind.

While its all well and good to be feeding your rifle lapua or 24k gold plated ammo the reality is that its getting very expensive to feed our habbits. What I think Fish has done is preformed a great service to anyone curious about the ammo. From what I can make out, as Fish has said its shooting in line with HPS, the MEN ammo would make a great training round without the need to rezero for the more expensive HPS.


Fish... Whats the price comparison for 100 rounds of 155grn HPS VS 100 rounds of MEM ??

Thanks for the great review, more of these are needed Did John not have any of the Match 168 grn Privi Partizan in stock ? (last time I called up I took what he had left)

If you havent put any through your rifle and are willing to post up another review ill send you on a box or 2

GH

leupold90

Tackle shop has (had ?) HPS 155g at €54 / 50.

Seems to be as good as any other factory match ammo out there but at about half the price.

fish slapped

Hi Leupold, yes my barrel is stamped 7.62X51mm and so is designed to take mill surp. I contacted Sporting services in the UK about this and he replied with a chuckle that she'd take any 7.62mill surp or .308 I cared to chuck at it.

Hi Gunhappy, I didn't ask about the match ammo (didn't know), I might try and get some to try and I'd be happy to do another write up.

Hi Ezridax, My rule of thumb is to try as many different types of ammo as I can and as it's designed to shoot this stuff ... well why not...

The MEN black spot works out at €40 per hundred cheaper than the HPS which is another 60 rounds...

Each man works to his own budget, I would love to shoot lapua as I found them excellent in my 6.5 before but I can no longer afford to feed my guns such expensive ammo.

The write up was merely ment as a guide for anyone in the same boat...


Fish

Cass

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

Relax, The AIs are a great platform for 90% of ammo thats out there. Remember there designed with ruggedness in mind.

fish slapped wrote: »

Hi Ezridax, My rule of thumb is to try as many different types of ammo as I can and as it's designed to shoot this stuff ... well why not..

Lads, i'm not being a dick or trying to be either. I wished fishslapped the best and congratulated him on fine shooting and a fine rifle.

My reasons for recommending the better ammo is while the stuff you are using works well at 100yds i doubt it would have the ability to shoot as well at distances. I could be wrong and if i am then i'm happy to be corrected.

Also the comment on the hard extraction. I've seen it before where a lad was experiencing "hard extractions" with ammo, and continued to shoot it. It took a hammer, bit of timber and a broken bolt handle to open the bolt after one too many. It was simply a pre-cautionary note not a condescending one.

At 100yds i can shoot, hunting ammo, HPS, Lapua, and various other bullets/rounds of various grainages and all within an inch or so. When you move out to 300 they start to spread and when you are at 600yds the ones that worked well at 100 start to fall away while the truely good rounds continue to group out further.

Again lads not a criticism, merely a point of note.

fish slapped

EZ, no offence taken and as I haven't the AI long I'm simply using it between 100 and 300 to train myself, I know the rifle can shoot well and some types of ammo can shoot well in it, but until I can be consistent and shoot it well at 300 I'll keep using "practice ammo" and this is the use I see for this ammo - simple trigger time.

The hard extractions I referred to were by no means a wrestle with the gun but just a little more effort, as I said there was no need to break my cheek weld to open the bolt.

Fish

gunhappy_ie

fish slapped wrote: »

Hi Leupold, yes my barrel is stamped 7.62X51mm and so is designed to take mill surp. I contacted Sporting services in the UK about this and he replied with a chuckle that she'd take any 7.62mill surp or .308 I cared to chuck at it.

I thought as much, Ive seen those rifles take some amount of abuse over the years and still shoot.

Hi Gunhappy, I didn't ask about the match ammo (didn't know), I might try and get some to try and I'd be happy to do another write up.

John had 550 last time I was up there and I took it all. Are you a midlands member and ill meet up with you some day with a box for you to try out ???

The MEN black spot works out at €40 per hundred cheaper than the HPS which is another 60 rounds...

Nice, as stated, thats a great price for a round that you can zero with, get some trigger time and get used to the feel of the gun without feeling it so bad in your wallet.

Each man works to his own budget, I would love to shoot lapua as I found them excellent in my 6.5 before but I can no longer afford to feed my guns such expensive ammo.

I think that rings a bell with alot of us...

The write up was merely ment as a guide for anyone in the same boat...

Are you on any other forums that you could post up your findings ??


Fish

Ezridax wrote: »

Lads, i'm not being a dick or trying to be either. I wished fishslapped the best and congratulated him on fine shooting and a fine rifle.

I just think that (while you were trying to get a point across) there was alot more bad points than good points for a guy who went so far out of his way to post up his findings.

My reasons for recommending the better ammo is while the stuff you are using works well at 100yds i doubt it would have the ability to shoot as well at distances. I could be wrong and if i am then i'm happy to be corrected.

At 100yds i can shoot, hunting ammo, HPS, Lapua, and various other bullets/rounds of various grainages and all within an inch or so. When you move out to 300 they start to spread and when you are at 600yds the ones that worked well at 100 start to fall away while the truely good rounds continue to group out further.

Of course you pay for quality and at greater distances the milsurp ammo wont be a patch on a quality brand but were not living in the celitc tiger era and any cheaper round that holds the same zero @ 100 as a more expensive brand IMO is a round worth buying.


Also the comment on the hard extraction. I've seen it before where a lad was experiencing "hard extractions" with ammo, and continued to shoot it. It took a hammer, bit of timber and a broken bolt handle to open the bolt after one too many. It was simply a pre-cautionary note not a condescending one.

Ive also got stories about @ an F class shoot with 3 AIs on the firing line, A blaser, a custom build and 1-2 others i cant remember off the top of my head. Anyway the first AI shooter pulls the trigger "Bang", same with the second and the third.... as the custom rifle shooter pulls the trigger there is only a click as the firing pin is broken....


The AIs are far too rugged to worry about any over-pressure rounds (perhaps very hot handlands would be the answer to that) or abuse that they will see in civilian use.


Again lads not a criticism, merely a point of note.

GH

fish slapped

GH, I am indeed a member of Midlands, but don't think I'll make it this weekend due to a communion and the wife and two of the kids playing music in the Offaly fleadh. I'd love to buy a box of match ammo from you and try it out. I'll PM you about a date (:o...;):D) for a meet.

Fish