Confidence

cantdecide

Apologies if this isn't the right place...

They say that condfidence is everything in life. From love to careers and everything in between, everyone talks about confidence. It jars me every time I hear the word. Personally, I think confidence is a hollow inter-personal sales technique and I don't put much mass at all in it. I think it's too easily faked. I think genuine, quiet excellence is far more difficult to achieve and it isn't even very hard to spot. That's what I try to focus on, in my life.

So why is there so much emphasis on confidence? Why should one's quality of life hinge on something as fleeting and insignificant as confidence?

liah

I believe you're confusing confidence with arrogance/acting civilly in interpersonal situations. Genuine confidence shouldn't be fleeting at all.

I'm a confident person, but it's nothing to do with being fake or having to put on a persona to react to people. I don't rub anything in anyone's face or feel superior to anyone. I don't think I'm perfect or anything like that. But I am confident.

What confidence is (to me, anyway), is being able to recognize yourself for what you are and, ultimately, be comfortable and happy with that. It's knowing what you're capable of, what you're good at, what you're bad at, where your values lie, what you believe in, what kind of person you are, what kind of person you want to be, recognizing how you come across to others, and not needing admiration or recognition from other people to be happy with yourself. And not needing to insult others to feel better about yourself.

Based on that I find it incredibly hard to say it's 'fleeting' - it's a way to see your entire life.

paky

confidence is created by external factors such as your place in society. to be honest i dont think the individual has any control over it imo

liah

paky wrote: »

confidence is created by external factors such as your place in society. to be honest i dont think the individual has any control over it imo

Hardly - some of the poorest people in the world can be the most confident and some of the richest in the world can be the most insecure.

Confidence (the genuine kind) can only come from at least some level of honesty with yourself.

paky

liah wrote: »

Hardly - some of the poorest people in the world can be the most confident and some of the richest in the world can be the most insecure.

that would depend on how you define rich and poor?

liah

paky wrote: »

that would depend on how you define rich and poor?

Any way, really.

Some people are genuinely content without another living soul around. Some are only content with a great wealth of friends. Some can only be happy with millions in their bank accounts, and others can be delighted without having even have heard of money. Some are content with remaining celibate for life while others, completely happy with harems. Some happy sleeping under the stars, others happy with castles.

How are you defining it, if it narrows it down?

People can be genuinely confident in any walk of life or any scenario, if they're the right sort of person for it.

paky

liah wrote: »

Any way, really.

Some people are genuinely content without another living soul around. Some are only content with a great wealth of friends. Some can only be happy with millions in their bank accounts, and others can be delighted without having even have heard of money. Some are content with remaining celibate for life while others, completely happy with harems. Some happy sleeping under the stars, others happy with castles.

How are you defining it, if it narrows it down?

People can be genuinely confident in any walk of life or any scenario, if they're the right sort of person for it.

the poor have a hierarchy aswel as the rich you know.

i think alot of it depends on human hierarchy. look at secondary school students for example. the hierarchy in schools is not driven by money, same maybe said for prisons.
different societies/cultures with different values. your place in those societies determines your value which in turn affects your confidence

liah

paky wrote: »

the poor have a hierarchy aswel as the rich you know.

i think alot of it depends on human hierarchy. look at secondary school students for example. the hierarchy in schools is not driven by money, same maybe said for prisons.
different societies/cultures with different values. your place in those societies determines your value which in turn affects your confidence

It can affect your confidence, if you let it. It doesn't have to. A there's a lot of people who don't value themselves on how society sees them and are confident as a result.

paky

liah wrote: »

It can affect your confidence, if you let it. It doesn't have to. A there's a lot of people who don't value themselves on how society sees them and are confident as a result.

theres tonnes of books written on how to develop confidence. knowing how to do something and actually doing it are very different things.
thats why alot of people who fail to develop confidence fail to make intiation at the right time

like i said before, confidence is pretty much out of the hands of the individual

liah

paky wrote: »

theres tonnes of books written on how to develop confidence. knowing how to do something and actually doing it are very different things.
thats why alot of people who fail to develop confidence fail to make intiation at the right time

like i said before, confidence is pretty much out of the hands of the individual

No it's not, it's entirely in the hands of the individual; to say otherwise is to completely throw the idea of personal responsibility, awareness and development out the window, which is a very unwise thing to do, imo. I've grown up poor and come from a broken family and had a damaging past. Hell, I'm still poor and barely own more than my clothes, but that doesn't stop me from being confident.

It's a state of mind that can only be acquired by yourself, you can tell anyone anything about how to get there but they're never going to 'get' it until they've done it on their own.

How are you even defining confidence?

paky

liah wrote: »

No it's not, it's entirely in the hands of the individual; to say otherwise is to completely throw the idea of personal responsibility, awareness and development out the window, which is a very unwise thing to do, imo. I've grown up poor and come from a broken family and had a damaging past. Hell, I'm still poor and barely own more than my clothes, but that doesn't stop me from being confident.

It's a state of mind that can only be acquired by yourself, you can tell anyone anything about how to get there but they're never going to 'get' it until they've done it on their own.

How are you even defining confidence?

what i mean is that confidence is not controlled by the indivdual. it is naturally aquired by the individual

kerryman12

paky wrote: »

what i mean is that confidence is not controlled by the indivdual. it is naturally aquired by the individual

so following this definition someone who has acquired confidence can have it taken from them?

paky

kerryman12 wrote: »

so follow this definition someone who has acquired confidence can have it taken from them?

absolutely, athletes, especially boxers are good example of this

kerryman12

paky wrote: »

absolutely, athletes, especially boxers are good example of this

I am not sure I would agree, lets take rory mcilroy as an example at the masters. Surely he lost confidence in himself as opposed to someone taking it from him?

paky

kerryman12 wrote: »

I am not sure I would agree, lets take rory mcilroy as an example at the masters. Surely he lost confidence in himself as opposed to someone taking it from him?

i wouldnt say someone took it from him, but someone did gain some at his expense

kerryman12

i wouldnt say someone took it from him

but then surely it was within his control?

paky wrote: »

but someone did gain some at his expense

is that not a separate debate?

paky

kerryman12 wrote: »

but then surely it was within his control?

winning was within his control. confidence would of been a result of that success.

kerryman12

paky wrote: »

winning was within his control. confidence would of been a result of that success.

But surely he would have needed a certain amount of confidence in his ability in the first instance? I agreed his confidence would have increased if he had won.

nyarlothothep

Interesting thread, I agree that its used so much as to become a buzzword and something of a nebulous term. Its difficult to define what confidence is...people may be confident or unconfident in different areas. In addition if they are unconfident about something that isn't necessarily something which is a terrible thing to be condemned, in fact it can make people more human, I've found the most boring characters in fiction, for example, to be the ones who are the most confident. I wouldn't use confidence or charisma for that matter to determine my level of respect for a person like some people do.

SugarHigh

I disagree that confidence has anything to do with knowing your true self
worth it also doesn't have anything to do with honesty.
Someone can gain confidence in a subject by not knowing enough to realise they know very little.

Confidence through ignorance.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that

Just look at how some people with no Scientific qualifications act as if they are experts just because they have read a few articles which really aren't educational.

The dunning Kruger effect
http://www.chacocanyon.com/pointlookout/090107.shtml

Bloody Nipples

SugarHigh wrote: »

I disagree that confidence has anything to do with knowing your true self
worth it also doesn't have anything to do with honesty.
Someone can gain confidence in a subject by not knowing enough to realise they know very little.

But surely knowing your limitations is being honest with yourself about your capablities? Personally I know I'm one for falling into the pit of just looking at something and saying "Oh yeah I could handle that no problem" without really analysing my own ability to complete the task.

On the other hand, I'm about to graduate this year and all my degree has really shown me is the absolutely miniscule amount I know about my particular field.



I like looking at this picture, because it allows me to put everything into perspective, that I'm not even a blip in the existence of the universe. It actually gives me self-confidence to know that even my most monumental failures and triumphs ultimately don't matter, which fits in with the wikipedia definition of self confidence:

Self-confidence does not necessarily imply 'self-belief' or a belief in one's ability to succeed. For instance, one may be inept at a particular sport or activity, but remain 'confident' in one's demeanor, simply because one does not place a great deal of emphasis on the outcome of the activity. The key element to self-confidence is, therefore, an acceptance of the myriad consequences of a particular situation, whether they are good or bad. When one does not dwell on negative consequences one can be more 'self-confident' because one is worrying far less about failure or (more accurately) the disapproval of others following potential failure. One is then more likely to focus on the actual situation which means that enjoyment and success in that situation is also more probable. If there is any 'self-belief' component it is simply a belief in one's ability to tolerate whatever outcome may arise; a certainty that one will cope irrespective of what happens.

Professor Raj Persaud posits that true self confidence comes from an attitude where you:
"Promise yourself, no matter how difficult the problem life throws at you, that you will try as hard as you can to help yourself. You acknowledge that sometimes your efforts to help yourself may not result in success, as often being properly rewarded is not in your control."

cantdecide

liah wrote: »

...I believe you're confusing confidence with arrogance/acting civilly in interpersonal situations...

I suppose there's confidence, which I would regard myself as having loads of, too. Then's there's projecting confidence. This is what I have a problem with.

I think all forms overzealously projecting your confidence level, whether genuine or not, is arrogance. I see it as a pointless exercise. This appears to be at odds with the norm. I think if I put more mass in projecting confidence, maybe job interviews would have been different. Maybe I'd have some tender goddess hanging from my arm. Yet, I think that projecting more confidence into the world tells no one about my true character.

liah wrote: »

...Genuine confidence shouldn't be fleeting at all......Based on that I find it incredibly hard to say it's 'fleeting' - it's a way to see your entire life...

IMO, "genuine" confidence and 'projected' confidence does vary for most people. Often greatly. If a person put a lot of weight on, often, it affects their confidence. If they lose it, if often returns. If someone has gone through a personal tragedy, like a bad breakup, confidence can be lost. I think this is true of most people. It tells you nothing about a person. Their character and talents remain the same whether 'confidence' is high or low. The point is that confidence is seen as some kind of currency. In a nutshell, I think this is wrong. I think a huge emphasis is been put on it, when in reality, it gives you no sense of a person. Again, it is far too easily faked.

The question, really, is 'how did we arrive at a situation where so much emphasis has been put on confidence levels in our daily lives'?

liah

I suppose it's because confident people don't need to lean on others, and a lot of people don't have the energy to be leaned on all the time?

A simplistic answer, granted, but self-sufficiency is prized because it allows everyone else to do their own thing without having to worry about someone else all the time, meaning more in general gets done. Since confident people are generally pretty self-sufficient, it's only natural that it holds true that confident people are therefore prized more than insecure people who may need more attending and time invested in them and weigh other people down leading to lack of productivity/development/whatever else.

I'm not saying that insecure people shouldn't be valued, or that this is how it should be, but I think the way it is forces those who are insecure to develop themselves, rather than wallow in their own securities forever because they're being constantly enabled by their peers. Which I, personally, see as beneficial, after having been on both sides of the self-esteem fence.

Kind of hard to explain how I feel about the whole topic of confidence and what it means for society in general, and I'm still developing my opinion on it anyway so I should probably digress at this point.

Bloody Nipples

cantdecide wrote: »

IMO, "genuine" confidence and 'projected' confidence does vary for most people. Often greatly. If a person put a lot of weight on, often, it affects their confidence. If they lose it, if often returns. If someone has gone through a personal tragedy, like a bad breakup, confidence can be lost. I think this is true of most people. It tells you nothing about a person. Their character and talents remain the same whether 'confidence' is high or low. The point is that confidence is seen as some kind of currency. In a nutshell, I think this is wrong. I think a huge emphasis is been put on it, when in reality, it gives you no sense of a person. Again, it is far too easily faked.

I disagree with this part in bold. Confidence has a massive effect on what a person will do in a given situation based on what they have the confidence to do. It's not the character of someone or their talents that define them but their deeds and what they do with those talents (to paraphrase the Dark Knight :P). Like get an unconfident guy to go chat up a beautiful girl.

If you can browbeat him enough to actually go up to the girl and talk to her, chances are he'll make a mess of it because of worrying about what could happen if he fúcks it up.
Realistically if he gets shot down that's it. There's no lifelong mark of shame hanging over his head but you try telling him that at that exact moment in time.

Go look at the Personal Issues forum, you'll find numerous threads on "What do I do in X situation with this girl?".

As a guy with plenty of confidence, I'd just ask a girl out, ask her for her number etc. etc. but getting people with low self-confidence to stop worrying about the consequences of a negative reaction (to anything) is a massive block to them being able to achieve their goals.

Ickle Magoo

cantdecide wrote: »

The question, really, is 'how did we arrive at a situation where so much emphasis has been put on confidence levels in our daily lives'?

Because we value confidence as a trait...at least in so far as giving us some assurance that the person we are entrusting our lives or outcome to have a notion that they are capable of doing their job. I mean, would you like to be in an aeroplane with a pilot that lacks confidence? Perhaps driven on a motorway by someone who lacks confidence? Would you like a surgeon operating on you that lacked confidence? Or perhaps a defence lawyer that lacked confidence?

Overall we see confident people as more attractive because their opposite number; nervous, sweaty, anxious, panicky people are not good people to be around or rely on in a crises and we [generally] like having people we can rely on around us.

SugarHigh

I agree that people find confidence in others reassuring but I don't think they are right to feel this way as confidence doesn't tell younanything about someones ability because they might not be a good judge of their own skill level.

Which goes back to what I said in my last post about confidence being gained through ignorance. People aren't good at rating themselves because they are going to be biased. Confidence is just a self rating that really doesn't have any credibility.

Someone can easily overate their own intelligence and consider themselves an expert in something they are completely ignorant. Someone who actually understands the*Complexity of the subject may be less confident in their opinion*even though they are more informed. The outside
observer can be fooled by confidence.

Ickle Magoo

Which would be true if we only take confidence in isolation - but barring fairly innocuous interactions such as in a pub or on an internet forum, I can't think of a situation when qualifications, past experience and so on aren't also taken into account and confidence is judged as part of an overall package.

cantdecide

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

...barring fairly innocuous interactions such as in a pub or on an internet forum...

Dismiss it if you will but huge emphasis is put on confidence. I didn't start it and I don't understand it. It is repeated time and time again that all traits from confidence through to outright arrogance and everything in between is generally perceived to be an advantage to an individual. 'If you're confident, your life will improve'. We, as a society, have learned that the confidence levels of our peers is a critical factor in determining usefulness, for want of a better word. I think one's usefulness and one's 'confidence' are usually divorced, yet we continue to use it as, at least in part, in our decision making processes in determining the usefulness of individuals. It just seems as irrelevent as their height, weight, ethnicity etc etc

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

...Go look at the Personal Issues forum, you'll find numerous threads on "What do I do in X situation with this girl?"...

Part of my opinions of confidence would have been garnered from PI, actually. A typical answer to such a question would be '....and if you're confident, she'll like you...'. To me, that seems absurd. I would have thought it was obvious to try to avoid sounding gormless if possible.

Ickle Magoo

cantdecide wrote: »

Dismiss it if you will but huge emphasis is put on confidence. I didn't start it and I don't understand it. It is repeated time and time again that all traits from confidence through to outright arrogance and everything in between is generally perceived to be an advantage to an individual. 'If you're confident, your life will improve'. We, as a society, have learned that the confidence levels of our peers is a critical factor in determining usefulness, for want of a better word. I think one's usefulness and one's 'confidence' are usually divorced, yet we continue to use it as, at least in part, in our decision making processes in determining the usefulness of individuals. It just seems as irrelevent as their height, weight, ethnicity etc etc

Only if height, weight, ethnicity, etc, affects ability to function in society. Confidence, or more particularly, lack there of can affect basic ability to function, social interaction, sexual prowess, etc, etc. Dismiss it if you will but confidence is relevant, sometimes even vital, to many facets of life.

If you live in a world where interaction with other people face to face, handling social situations and convincing public speaking are not considered important or valued traits then fair enough - but realistically, that just isn't the case.

Scanlas The 2nd

SugarHigh wrote: »

I agree that people find confidence in others reassuring but I don't think they are right to feel this way as confidence doesn't tell younanything about someones ability because they might not be a good judge of their own skill level.

Which goes back to what I said in my last post about confidence being gained through ignorance. People aren't good at rating themselves because they are going to be biased. Confidence is just a self rating that really doesn't have any credibility.

Someone can easily overate their own intelligence and consider themselves an expert in something they are completely ignorant. Someone who actually understands the*Complexity of the subject may be less confident in their opinion*even though they are more informed. The outside
observer can be fooled by confidence.

Confidence is about your internal state. If you feel relaxed and free of anxiety in most situations then you are confident. Some people are have circumstancial confidence whereby they need specific things to be in place to feel relaxed. Confidence allows you to feel unstifled. Sing happy birthday in you own home and you can belt it out full blast without a thougth. Sing happy birthday in an office with lots of people you don't know around and you might feel stifled. Your brain won't allow you to sing it full blast, your inner dialogue turns on and you feel anxious. Core confidence in someone allows them to feel confident most of the time without any crutches of a nice haircut, nice clothes, friends with you, being in a position of power or being showered etc..

It wasn't me!

Everything you achieve, everything you do is a product of your imagining of yourself, your confidence. To do something, you must first believe that you can do it, that you have the capacity. Two-time Olympic medallist and several time world champion Lanny Bassham developed a lot around the theory of mental management and performance from the mid 70s on. His books and CDs are of tremendous use for sports training, but it's a system that can be used in every facet of life. Check out this anecdote of the system being used to deal with a tremendous injury for example. Confidence is a decision, a projection of your imagining of yourself in a positive manner. Bassham described three aspects which are required for performance. These are the self-image (Your belief in your capabilities), the conscious mind (That most immediate thing you're thinking of which directs your process) and the subconsicous mind (The source of your capability). When these were in balance, performance was inevitable. The link is worth a read anyway for an example of how deciding to do something is the single most important step to accomplishing it (Which sounds kinda redundantly obvious until you examine it more closely).