Whats wrong with our legal system ?

PCPhoto

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/teen-girl-spared-jail-after-violent-robberies-and-assault-on-garda-sergeant-503203.html

Seriously !!

A 17-year-old girl has been spared a custodial sentence for two violent robberies, having a baseball bat as a weapon and assaulting a Garda sergeant.

The girl had been remanded in custody earlier this month after the Dublin Children's Court heard that six pre-sentence probation reports on her were negative and she had not fully engaged with supports to help her address her use of drugs and alcohol.

The court had also directed psychiatric and psychological assessments of her to be carried out there.

Today, the girl appeared again and Judge Eamon O'Brien agreed to follow a recommendation to place her on supervised probation for 12 months.

The south Dublin girl, who has been released from custody, has been ordered to follow the advice of her probation officer to divert her from re-offending.

Otherwise the case could be brought back to court and a custodial sentence imposed.

Earlier the court had heard that she was bright but she had been exposing herself to high risk situations through alcohol abuse and at one point her mother was “at the end of her tether” with her.

The defendant had pleaded guilty earlier to robbery of two teenage girls, one of whom was aged 14, in Ballybrack in south Co Dublin, on October 5, 2009.

During a hearing last July, Garda Georgina Reilly had told the court that a girl was being robbed of her iPod.

Another teen girl, stepped in to help her but was attacked by the defendant. “She grabbed her by her hair and punched her several times to the head,” Garda Reilly had said.

While the accused was arrested, she broke free and hit the girl again with handcuffs.

The victim “lost some of her hair from being pulled and had bruises to her face and torso when she was kicked.”

It was also discovered the accused had also set on another girl (aged 14) who had been also robbed and had her mobile phone taken.

The teen, who has no prior criminal convictions, has also admitted assaulting a sergeant at Shankill garda station and possessing the baseball bat at an offensive weapon at a house in south Dublin, on another date.

Ok...granted ... No Prior Convictions (does not mean she was not before the courts in the past)

- pleads guilty to possession of a baseball bat/offensive weapon at a house in south Dublin
- pleads guilty to assaulting a garda sergeant
- pleads guilty to robbery of a 14yr old (mobile phone)
- pleads guilty to robbery of another teenage girl (iPod)
- assault another teenage girl (who tried to assist the girl who had her ipod stolen) and returned to assault her again after she was in cuffs !!! (WTF)
- does not co-operate with social services/people trying to help her (six negative pre sentence reports)

and no custodial sentence !! no wonder criminals are more and more daring when the system fails to punish them..... are judges too out of touch with society ?

Did she deserve a custodial sentence?

Helix

it clearly wasnt her fault. society made her do it

landsleaving

Five crimes should equal five sentences. I'd usually be one to say at that young to try get her help, but she turned it down so she has no desire to be part of society. She belongs away from other people because she's a danger to them, simple as. So yes, our legal system is failing, not to punish criminals, but to maintain the safety of the private individual.

PCPhoto

ha ha ha ..... I'm sure she (or her legal aid solicitor) will blame anyone but herself

Oranage2

Yep - if you're female under 18 or have a kid you'd honestly need to murder someone to go to jail or not have a tv license.

PCPhoto

Oranage2 wrote: »

Yep - if you're female under 18 or have a kid you'd honestly need to murder someone to go to jail or not have a tv license.

dont you need to be over 18 for a TV licence ??

epgc3fyqirnbsx

Well I'm optimistic and I admire Shatter so I'm expecting to see some good reforms over the next few years.
Keep an eye out for a white paper on crime this year with recommendations from various groups about law enforcement, bail and the examination of minimum sentencing and concurrent sentencing.
It's not black and white but there are certainly areas that can be improved upon

starbelgrade

PCPhoto wrote: »

Did she deserve a custodial sentence?

No.

She's a teenager who nicked a few things and got in a few scraps. If they locked up every teenager who did this, half the kids in the country would be banged up.

Prison should be reserved for real criminals & not be a holding pen for slightly wayward adolescents.

Wolfe Tone

kick her in the gee I say

CreepingDeath

PCPhoto wrote: »

pleads guilty to possession of a baseball bat/offensive weapon at a house in south Dublin

It's not illegal to have a "weapon" in your own house.
Otherwise kitchen knives in your cutlery drawer would be illegal.

PCPhoto wrote: »

- assault another teenage girl (who tried to assist the girl who had her ipod stolen) and returned to assault her again after she was in cuffs !!! (WTF)

Assault charges tend to be dismissed if the damage isn't too serious, and they focus on the robbery charge.

This tolerance of low level crime at an early age just makes the problem worse later. If they had zero tolerance of crime, they'd cut down a lot more future issues.

PCPhoto

starbelgrade wrote: »

No.

She's a teenager who nicked a few things and got in a few scraps. If they locked up every teenager who did this, half the kids in the country would be banged up.

Prison should be reserved for real criminals & not be a holding pen for slightly wayward adolescents.

but but but .... if we let the kids get away with it when they are younger .... when does it stop !!

Did you read the article ?....even when in custody she ran back to one of the girls and hit her in the face with the cuffs .... scum of the highest order in my book (and not even going to point out the fact that the Gardai were not capable of properly restraining a 17yr old girl) ... multiple robberies !!

if we stop/discourage kids from breaking the law then theres hope when they become adults they will realise its wrong to break the law.....at the moment there are kids with in excess of 50 convictions - and still under the age of 18 !!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Not entirely sure what a custodial sentence would achieve...?

What has happened here is, she got a break. Whether she deserved it or not, doesn't matter. I would, however, like to know what sentence she DID (or will) get.

That said, if she does re-offend given the chance she just got, she should be locked up in some form. I still recommend the idea I put forward the last time this kind of thread came up, which was that a semi-school semi-military establishment be set up in a seriously remote place for teenagers like her.

PCPhoto

CreepingDeath wrote: »

It's not illegal to have a "weapon" in your own house.
Otherwise kitchen knives in your cutlery drawer would be illegal.



Assault charges tend to be dismissed if the damage isn't too serious, and they focus on the robbery charge.

This tolerance of low level crime at an early age just makes the problem worse later. If they had zero tolerance of crime, they'd cut down a lot more future issues.

article does not say if its her house or not ...but its possession of a baseball bat !! (not an everyday article)

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

PCPhoto wrote: »

if we stop/discourage kids from breaking the law then theres hope when they become adults they will realise its wrong to break the law.....at the moment there are kids with in excess of 50 convictions - and still under the age of 18 !!

but but but... jail does not achieve this.

landsleaving

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Not entirely sure what a custodial sentence would achieve...?

What has happened here is, she got a break. Whether she deserved it or not, doesn't matter. I would, however, like to know what sentence she DID (or will) get.

That said, if she does re-offend given the chance she just got, she should be locked up in some form. I still recommend the idea I put forward the last time this kind of thread came up, which was that a semi-school semi-military establishment be set up in a seriously remote place for teenagers like her.

Semi-military? Kind of a boot camp? I think you're on to something, but I'd add some form of therapy for them to deal with their aggression - it stems from something. They certainly need to be prevented from harming others so isolation might be better than incarceration.

On the other hand, if you mean train them as soldiers, well I can't say giving young, aggressive criminals the means to inflict more damage through physical or weapons training is in anyone's interest.

Aoifey!

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Not entirely sure what a custodial sentence would achieve...?

What has happened here is, she got a break. Whether she deserved it or not, doesn't matter. I would, however, like to know what sentence she DID (or will) get.

That said, if she does re-offend given the chance she just got, she should be locked up in some form. I still recommend the idea I put forward the last time this kind of thread came up, which was that a semi-school semi-military establishment be set up in a seriously remote place for teenagers like her.

This is the sort of thing needed in cases like this. Just throwing her in jail will solve very little. If a system like this was well implemented it could do great things in reforming teenagers like this.

PCPhoto

it will keep her out of society and make it a safer place for the rest of us !! ...so we can happily walk around without the fear of some scumbag attacking and robbing us.

landsleaving

Is an AH thread achieving consensus?

starbelgrade

PCPhoto wrote: »

but but but .... if we let the kids get away with it when they are younger .... when does it stop !!

Did you read the article ?....even when in custody she ran back to one of the girls and hit her in the face with the cuffs .... scum of the highest order in my book (and not even going to point out the fact that the Gardai were not capable of properly restraining a 17yr old girl) ... multiple robberies !!

if we stop/discourage kids from breaking the law then theres hope when they become adults they will realise its wrong to break the law.....at the moment there are kids with in excess of 50 convictions - and still under the age of 18 !!

Meh.

Some kids are wild. Most of them grow out of it. Banging them up in jail isn't gonna do them any favours - all it really does is sate the appetite of the Joe Duffy crowd.

PCPhoto

landsleaving wrote: »

Is an AH thread achieving consensus?

nearly - there was a comment saying something like she was only doing a couple of robberies and assaults, nearly all kids do that !!!

PCPhoto

starbelgrade wrote: »

Meh.

Some kids are wild. Most of them grow out of it. Banging them up in jail isn't gonna do them any favours - all it really does is sate the appetite of the Joe Duffy crowd.

what kind of punishment would you suggest in this case ....she clearly does not want the "system" to help her and is out of control !!!

Oranage2

landsleaving wrote: »

Is an AH thread achieving consensus?

NO - it's just that damn Starbelgrade with his rational logical thinking -

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

landsleaving wrote: »

Semi-military? Kind of a boot camp? I think you're on to something, but I'd add some form of therapy for them to deal with their aggression - it stems from something. They certainly need to be prevented from harming others so isolation might be better than incarceration.

On the other hand, if you mean train them as soldiers, well I can't say giving young, aggressive criminals the means to inflict more damage through physical or weapons training is in anyone's interest.

Not quiet as far as boot camp, and certainly not soldiers.

I worked in one of these in Denmark. It was on an island in the North Sea, connected to the mainland by a five mile bridge. They could run away, but where would they go?

Each year had two mentors: a teacher and a disciplinarian, usually someone with either milirary experience or a ****er you did not want to mess with. And he had full authority to use force to restrain (obviosuly not to hit). And it worked: once they realised that there was no way out and **** all to do, they started to actually reflect on what brought them there. And the reuslts? In four years they were passing state exams and saying things like "I can't beleive what a wanker I was when I was 14".

We have enough islands in this country, or barren areas of landscape where this is feasible, and no one's yet come up with a decent arguement against it.

starbelgrade

PCPhoto wrote: »

what kind of punishment would you suggest in this case ....she clearly does not want the "system" to help her and is out of control !!!

That's the key to this really. Punishment. It's far too often seen as the way to deal with crime. Far too often, this isn't the case. All it does is remove people from the system without doing anything to address the problem.

In some cases, there's not much else you can do, but I don't think it's the case here.

It sounds to me like the kid needs a bit of help, not incarceration. How that's achieved is not really anything I'd know much about, but she's hardly a major enough threat to society to be thrown in the slammer.

Helix

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

but but but... jail does not achieve this.

yeah, lets keep her on the streets. thatll show her

Helix

starbelgrade wrote: »

That's the key to this really. Punishment. It's far too often seen as the way to deal with crime. Far too often, this isn't the case. All it does is remove people from the system without doing anything to address the problem.

In some cases, there's not much else you can do, but I don't think it's the case here.

It sounds to me like the kid needs a bit of help, not incarceration. How that's achieved is not really anything I'd know much about, but she's hardly a major enough threat to society to be thrown in the slammer.

the problem is that some people are scum. some people have always been scum, some people will always be scum. keeping them away from non scum sounds fine to me

starbelgrade

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Not quiet as far as boot camp, and certainly not soldiers.

I worked in one of these in Denmark. It was on an island in the North Sea, connected to the mainland by a five mile bridge. They could run away, but where would they go?

Each year had two mentors: a teacher and a disciplinarian, usually someone with either milirary experience or a ****er you did not want to mess with. And he had full authority to use force to restrain (obviosuly not to hit). And it worked: once they realised that there was no way out and **** all to do, they started to actually reflect on what brought them there. And the reuslts? In four years they were passing state exams and saying things like "I can't beleive what a wanker I was when I was 14".

We have enough islands in this country, or barren areas of landscape where this is feasible, and no one's yet come up with a decent arguement against it.

So, you take a load of wild teenagers, put them somewhere they can't escape from & force disciplinary measures on them. Sounds pretty much like a prison to me.

And what's the result? They end up thinking, "I can't believe what a wanker I was when I was 14" & pass some state exams.

I'd say that happens to millions of teenagers every year as they grow up, without the 'being forced to live on an island' bit.

Aoifey!

Helix wrote: »

the problem is that some people are scum. some people have always been scum, some people will always be scum. keeping them away from non scum sounds fine to me

Children are not born "scum". People are a product of their environment, where they grew up, how they grew up, parents, peers, etc. Therefore, they can change by realising this and taking themselves out of that environment.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

starbelgrade wrote: »

So, you take a load of wild teenagers, put them somewhere they can't escape from & force disciplinary measures on them. Sounds pretty much like a prison to me.

And what's the result? They end up thinking, "I can't believe what a wanker I was when I was 14" & pass some state exams.

I'd say that happens to millions of teenagers every year as they grow up, without the 'being forced to live on an island' bit.

That's just Ireland (sorry!)

Seriosuy, though, they had a lot more freedom than a prison. And they were never locked in their rooms.

My point being that, it gave them discipline without resorting to a prison setting (where, let's face it, they learn **** all). The isolation of the place and the removal from their current environment played a key part as well. I'd also like to point out that this was for serial offenders, not for one-off occasional cases.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

Helix wrote: »

the problem is that some people are scum. some people have always been scum, some people will always be scum. keeping them away from non scum sounds fine to me

It's unfair to label a kid 'scum', a lot of them haven't had the good fortune as the rest of us. Maybe indeed they are scum but you can't tell at that age, as star said they usually grow out of it
Happens all the time, if you completely ostracise them there is less of a chance of this happening and more hassle and cost to society as a result

starbelgrade

Helix wrote: »

the problem is that some people are scum. some people have always been scum, some people will always be scum. keeping them away from non scum sounds fine to me

They used to say the same about "thick" kids. They are thick, they always were thick & they'll always be thick, so it's better to keep them away from the brighter kids.

School classes in large schools used to be separated by levels of perceived intelligence.

Things have progressed a lot since then as we began to realise that integration had many benefits for everyone.

But, sure it's easier to spout out the "scum" argument & find a lazy solution to a complex problem.

Oranage2

I've seen this time and time again so need to worry - young scummer leaves school, rakes up a few convictions, has kid , sits all day on her arse watching Jeremy Kyle and no longer offends!!!!

Helix

starbelgrade wrote: »

They used to say the same about "thick" kids. They are thick, they always were thick & they'll always be thick, so it's better to keep them away from the brighter kids.

School classes in large schools used to be separated by levels of perceived intelligence.

Things have progressed a lot since then as we began to realise that integration had many benefits for everyone.

But, sure it's easier to spout out the "scum" argument & find a lazy solution to a complex problem.

thick kids are ever so slightly different to scumbags making everyone elses lives miserable

they know what theyre doing, they know its not right, yet they still do it

**** them, throw them in a hole and let them rot

the groutch

Blast her with piss jizz

Fremen

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Not entirely sure what a custodial sentence would achieve...?

Revenge! NAIL THE BITCH TO A TREE!

Pauleta

Im from Ballybrack. I actually havnt heard of this and im shocked. Im gonna bang on again and say we have the most liberal justice system on the planet.

I seen this guy walking the streets yesterday
http://www.herald.ie/national-news/courts/teen-accused-of-breaking-womans-nose-in-handbag-robbery-2122833.html

This lad is the ultimate scumbag. He must have 50+ convictions and i know quite well he hasnt been locked up until late 2010, if locked up at all.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Fremen wrote: »

Revenge! NAIL THE BITCH TO A TREE!

They tried that 2000 years ago. The guy came back three days later and carried on.

PCPhoto

Pauleta wrote: »

Im from Ballybrack. I actually havnt heard of this and im shocked. Im gonna bang on again and say we have the most liberal justice system on the planet.

I seen this guy walking the streets yesterday
http://www.herald.ie/national-news/courts/teen-accused-of-breaking-womans-nose-in-handbag-robbery-2122833.html

This lad is the ultimate scumbag. He must have 50+ convictions and i know quite well he hasnt been locked up until late 2010, if locked up at all.

which is essentially what I was getting at the "system" is way to lenient on kids and we cannot deal with the level of crime at a young age.

I see the kids outside the childrens court - and sometimes see the same families, the judges try to give them a second chance, a third chance a fourth fifth and sixth chance .... they just do not learn.... and they are being used by older criminals because the system cant touch/wont punish them.... more and more often people under the age of 18 are getting charged with murder, rape, illegal possession of a firearm, sexual assault ...to name a few.

it spans generations - families grow up going through "the system" - they don't know any better.

A bootcamp idea will not change their surroundings - these "kids" will go back to their families ...see their friends and get dragged back into breaking the law unless there is radical reform in our judicial system.

Anyone who wants a bit of an insight into the childrens court should read "Minor Offences" by Tom Tuite .... pretty much shows the standards which regularly visit the childrens court.

Spunge

Loving the common sense and good ideas in this thread.

Nice break from the usual herp a derp kill all scumbags

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

PCPhoto wrote: »

which is essentially what I was getting at the "system" is way to lenient on kids and we cannot deal with the level of crime at a young age.

I see the kids outside the childrens court - and sometimes see the same families, the judges try to give them a second chance, a third chance a fourth fifth and sixth chance .... they just do not learn.... and they are being used by older criminals because the system cant touch/wont punish them.... more and more often people under the age of 18 are getting charged with murder, rape, illegal possession of a firearm, sexual assault ...to name a few.

it spans generations - families grow up going through "the system" - they don't know any better.

A bootcamp idea will not change their surroundings - these "kids" will go back to their families ...see their friends and get dragged back into breaking the law unless there is radical reform in our judicial system.

Anyone who wants a bit of an insight into the childrens court should read "Minor Offences" by Tom Tuite .... pretty much shows the standards which regularly visit the childrens court.

How do you know bootcamp does not work? Have you seen it not work epeatedly? Have you ever been in one? Or even know of one?

What is your solution? And, if you say jail, how exactly do you expect it to work?

I just read the blurb of the book you mentioned, and it seems to think that dysfunctional families are at the root of the problem. I disagree partially here (sometimes, it can be a bad kid from a good family) but even when that is the case, what do you think should happen here?

wolf moon

starbelgrade wrote: »

She's a teenager who nicked a few things and got in a few scraps. If they locked up every teenager who did this, half the kids in the country would be banged up.

"nicked a few things"? you must've lost contact with reality.

as for the "half the kids" - we live in different countries i'd say.. population of ireland i know does not comprise of 50% of teenage thieves, robbers and scumbags.

orourkeda

dur

CharlesHaughey

starbelgrade wrote: »

That's the key to this really. Punishment. It's far too often seen as the way to deal with crime. Far too often, this isn't the case. All it does is remove people from the system without doing anything to address the problem.

WRONG

In some cases, there's not much else you can do, but I don't think it's the case here.

WRONG

It sounds to me like the kid needs a bit of help, not incarceration. How that's achieved is not really anything I'd know much about, but she's hardly a major enough threat to society to be thrown in the slammer.

WRONG

tallaghtmick

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

kick her in the gee I say

and blast her with her piss lol

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

CharlesHaughey wrote: »

WRONG



WRONG



WRONG

Gotta love the way youj completely fail to put forward any theory as to what is right right right!

holystungun9

Helix wrote: »

it clearly wasnt her fault. society made her do it

Partly correct. She also wasn't hugged enough as a child. Between the both of those i think that we all can understand this behaviour. In fact, maybe she should be 'entitled' to some compensation from the taxpayer. The poor thing, she has been wronged for too long I tell ya.

CorkMan

One thing I always thought when we joined the EU is we could exchange prisoners. This thing would look good banged away in some prison in eastern Poland. Just hand her over, and that is that until she get handed back. The prisons in Poland obviously are running ATM, so they are fit to be run.