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This is how I became enlightened
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26-04-2011 10:45pm#1
Comments
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I'm not a mod on the atheism forum but if you can phrase a thread so that it has some relation to the topic of atheism I'm almost positive you will not be banned and the thread will not be deleted. Even that might not be necessary. The charter doesn't prohibit prosthelytizing, just soap boxing and the like.
I had a look at the websites you linked me to btw. I was a little underwhelmed to be honest. It seems to be basically just making blanket declarations on the non-existence of a self as something tangible but without any supporting philosophy beyond the very basic. There is nothing particularly new or interesting, it's all been done before and done far better for hundreds of years by hundreds of people. Daniel Dennet for a recent modern example and his 'narrative centre of gravity' description of 'self'. Nietzsche if you want to back further also covered it in great detail.
It all came across as very shallow, egotistical and quite juvenile (no offence :pac:) really. "Lets get this fukking lie killed" 'The Tournament' etc. The selection of artistic sources that represent the philosophy 'The Matrix. Fight Club. I Heart Huckabees' all scream of unwarranted self importance, a sort of self proclaimed faux insight and a teen emo rebel vibe.
Digging deeper into the site and the threads didn't improve my impression. The whole 'process' of becoming 'liberated' basically consisting of the established members convincing new ones to parrot the one blanket and very thinly expanded upon philosophy of 'no-self' and then awarding them a colour coded badge of honour or pat on the head instantly on the spot and proclaiming 'now you are liberated, go forth and spread the word'. It comes across as a mass exhibition of neediness and insecurity. The only rebuttals they seem to have to any criticism of them seems to be to swear, insult and declare people are lost causes as they are too afraid or that 'only the liberated' can understand.
Just to be clear I actually agree with the overall conclusion presented i.e that the self does not exist as something sovereign and in and of itself. But your enthusiasm for the pretty paper thin expounding of that as described above baffles me a little. As does you assertions made that accepting the conclusion will lead to some sort of significant or lasting improvement for anyone. The fact that you describe yourself as having confidence and social comfort issues prior to last Thursday and a belief that they will all go away now makes me worry a little for you.
But thanks for the PM.
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Hi Strobe, great reply, I may dig through it just to get the points across a bit easier.
cheers i think ill do it though so.I'm not a mod on the atheism forum but if you can phrase a thread so that it has some relation to the topic of atheism I'm almost positive you will not be banned and the thread will not be deleted. Even that might not be necessary. The charter doesn't prohibit prosthelytizing, just soap boxing and the like.I had a look at the websites you linked me to btw. I was a little underwhelmed to be honest. It seems to be basically just making blanket declarations on the non-existence of a self as something tangible but without any supporting philosophy beyond the very basic. There is nothing particularly new or interesting, it's all been done before and done far better for hundreds of years by hundreds of people. Daniel Dennet for a recent modern example and his 'narrative centre of gravity' description of 'self'. Nietzsche if you want to back further also covered it in great detail.
It all came across as very shallow, egotistical and quite juvenile (no offence :pac:) really. "Lets get this fukking lie killed" 'The Tournament' etc. The selection of artistic sources that represent the philosophy 'The Matrix. Fight Club. I Heart Huckabees' all scream of unwarranted self importance, a sort of self proclaimed faux insight and a teen emo rebel vibe.
Couldnt agree more with you here, I found that element of it juvenile as well, I wish they took a more wider appealing approach to it , because as I pointed out in one of the threads people stumbling on the site probably think its just a bunch of conspiracy theorists trying to take down the world or something. Bare in mind the creator of the site had been studying philosophy since the age of 15 and is in his late 20s or 30s now I think (not that any of that makes much of a difference really).
But yes they need to improve the approach because that 'kill the fukkin lie' thing does NOT appeal to most, it didnt appeal to me either, I just ignored and went about my own thing.
Thats why my blog is an attempt to appeal to normal non "kool" people if you get me. Good point.
Yep it really turns the whole enlightenment issue upside down doesnt it?Digging deeper into the site and the threads didn't improve my impression. The whole 'process' of becoming 'liberated' basically consisting of the established members convincing new ones to parrot the one blanket and very thinly expanded upon philosophy of 'no-self' and then awarding them a colour coded badge of honour or pat on the head instantly on the spot and proclaiming 'now you are liberated, go forth and spread the word'. It comes across as a mass exhibition of neediness and insecurity. The only rebuttals they seem to have to any criticism of them seems to be to swear, insult and declare people are lost causes as they are too afraid or that 'only the liberated' can understand.
"Is it really that simple? It cant be! Your asked a few questions and then bam your enlightened? No that cant be the way!!!"
Their approach is aggressive questioning that puts your mind into a corner , it forces you to truly find that self, yes its rude, yes its offputting , yes its uncomfortable and almost child like, but when your forced to answer questions that you cant your mind begins to seriously question the self properly. However this will only work if you listen and actually try to do it, people cannot make you enlightened.
As for the colours, again , thats not really for a badge of honour, they did that because unenlightened people were trying to enlighten others and that is a very difficult task. It just gets messy when you cant tell the difference whos who. I was little sceptical of the system myself, until an unenlightened person starting giving advice to someone else and it was plain obvious that it was just getting philosophical instead of practical. The more people talk about the theory the less the person is looking at reality for themselves. They are getting distracted.
Ok, so truthfully you are choosing to ignore the site and what im saying instead of engaging even though you at least agree with the theory, there is nothing stopping you going and letting them question you or you asking questions, its free, you've nothing to lose, you can just stop posting if you really think its nonsense. And also its only one or two of them that carry on like that, most of them are completely fine.Just to be clear I actually agree with the overall conclusion presented i.e that the self does not exist as something sovereign and in and of itself. But your enthusiasm for the pretty paper thin expounding of that as described above baffles me a little. As does you assertions made that accepting the conclusion will lead to some sort of significant or lasting improvement for anyone.
Ok, another fair point, although you dont need to worry , I really shouldnt have phrased it the way I did (not sure where I said that , was it in a PM?)The fact that you describe yourself as having confidence and social comfort issues prior to last Thursday and a belief that they will all go away now makes me worry a little for you.
Let me correct that, its only after that Thursday did I realise I had issues like that, I think "issues" is even a bad word, because they didnt effect me on the outside at al. Dont get me wrong, Ive good friends , family, etc, I socialise , I get involved in things, I am busy trying to set up a business. As a matter of fact the last few months prior to that Thursday i was in great form, really really busy, a bit stressed yes, but my confidence was much higher than it had been in the past.
This was not some 'escape' or anything like that, but its only afterwards I realised "What the hell was I worrying about all that pointless crap for??" ( the pointless stresses , not my business etc) , I just came across the forum because of another thread in a psychology forum ( i happen to be interested in psychology too btw), and luckily the guy there that showed me the site seemed alot more mature than some people on the site.
I might also add that I have stressed alot of times that enlightenment does not get rid of emotions, it does not put you in a state of nirvana or bliss, it just allows you to see things the way they really are without being distorted by that constant inner chatter that is the self.But thanks for the PM.
No problem man, but bare in mind theres nothing stopping you, but you have to be open minded, not just read through the threads and go "meh".
You agree with the theory but you still feel that self. You cant get rid of it. But you have to really ask where is it? Is it in your head? Your body? You have to look at reality , like an object in front of you, and compare that to the self.
But anyway listen cheers again for the response, if you wanna leave it that fair enough but there really is nothing stopping you from just giving it a go. Nothing at all. You shouldnt feel above it because of its juvenile nature. Im like you though , only my snobbery (for want of a better word), is against buddhism etc. When I write enlightenment in google I get annoyed cause all I do is come across people that are just replicating stuff that has been said for 1000s of years, even though the success rate seems to be ridiculously low, I come across nonsense from so called enlightened people that simply isnt true. I come across new agers in India trying attain the 'perfect state'. I get annoyed and say "meh".
So I see where your coming from. But the difference is you dont have to commit to anything online, all you have to do is ask questions and answer questions, if it doesnt work it doesnt work.
At this stage your probably wondering, why the hell is he so determined here? Can he not just give it a rest and enjoy it?
To be honest, its not that easy to do that . You really feel an urge to tell people , but you have to be careful too, I dont go saying it to friends that dont have a clue about this stuff, I only came on here cause Im aware people at acknowledge there may be no self so its a bit easier, so at the risk of sounding cheesy or childish you do want to 'kill the lie'.
Anyway I gotta go work, all the best!!0 -
I'll just cherry pick your post here as no point in going over stuff we agree on obviously.
It might make an interesting thread in the Philosophy forum actually. Try in there too.cheers i think ill do it though so.Yep it really turns the whole enlightenment issue upside down doesnt it?
"Is it really that simple? It cant be! Your asked a few questions and then bam your enlightened? No that cant be the way!!!"
Their approach is aggressive questioning that puts your mind into a corner , it forces you to truly find that self, yes its rude, yes its offputting , yes its uncomfortable and almost child like, but when your forced to answer questions that you cant your mind begins to seriously question the self properly. However this will only work if you listen and actually try to do it, people cannot make you enlightened.
Not quite what I was getting at. I was more saying that a lot of the people there seem not to really know what they are saying themselves. They are just repeating boilerplate and struggle hugely if anyone deviates from the script. Not all of them of course. But quite a few. They may as well just have macros mapped on their keyboards. They can read and repeat lines but they don't appear to have any real understanding of what they are repeating.As for the colours, again , thats not really for a badge of honour, they did that because unenlightened people were trying to enlighten others and that is a very difficult task. It just gets messy when you cant tell the difference whos who. I was little sceptical of the system myself, until an unenlightened person starting giving advice to someone else and it was plain obvious that it was just getting philosophical instead of practical. The more people talk about the theory the less the person is looking at reality for themselves. They are getting distracted.
Fair enough. I can see the value in a reputation style system in that sense. But I think it doesn't serve it's purpose too well. I could start an account and in two weeks go from green to blue to red just by boilerplating answers I read in other threads and changing the wording slightly without ever having an understanding of what I was saying.
I also think you underestimate the appeal getting that approval/promotion would have on a lot of the type people that seem to sign up. Looking for meaning, looking for easy answers, looking to belong etc. I know you said jokingly that it sounds like a cult but there is that mentality present a little. My impression is those lads that ask people to take 'free personality tests' on Abbey St. would be drooling all over themselves if they saw a good few of the forum members walking down the street. Again not all of them, or even most, but quite a few.Ok, so truthfully you are choosing to ignore the site and what im saying instead of engaging even though you at least agree with the theory, there is nothing stopping you going and letting them question you or you asking questions, its free, you've nothing to lose, you can just stop posting if you really think its nonsense. And also its only one or two of them that carry on like that, most of them are completely fine.
Not at all. I requested access but am still awaiting a confirmation e-mail. I frequently am accused by the religious and the spiritual, the paranormal advocates et el of not having an open mind or writing things off without investigating them. This is not the case at all. I don't just investigate with an open mind I am willing to work on the presumption the thing is true and go from there if that is claimed to be required. But only to a point, of course.Ok, another fair point, although you dont need to worry , I really shouldnt have phrased it the way I did (not sure where I said that , was it in a PM?)
Let me correct that, its only after that Thursday did I realise I had issues like that, I think "issues" is even a bad word, because they didnt effect me on the outside at al. Dont get me wrong, Ive good friends , family, etc, I socialise , I get involved in things, I am busy trying to set up a business. As a matter of fact the last few months prior to that Thursday i was in great form, really really busy, a bit stressed yes, but my confidence was much higher than it had been in the past.
This was not some 'escape' or anything like that, but its only afterwards I realised "What the hell was I worrying about all that pointless crap for??" ( the pointless stresses , not my business etc) , I just came across the forum because of another thread in a psychology forum ( i happen to be interested in psychology too btw), and luckily the guy there that showed me the site seemed alot more mature than some people on the site.
I might also add that I have stressed alot of times that enlightenment does not get rid of emotions, it does not put you in a state of nirvana or bliss, it just allows you to see things the way they really are without being distorted by that constant inner chatter that is the self.
Fair enough. Whatever works for you, ye know. Just keep it in mind that people claimed the above about all sorts of beliefs and two weeks is a pretty short amount of time. Don't set yourself up for too big a fall too soon. Not to say that there has to be a fall, of course. Just don't go overboard.At this stage your probably wondering, why the hell is he so determined here? Can he not just give it a rest and enjoy it?
To be honest, its not that easy to do that . You really feel an urge to tell people , but you have to be careful too, I dont go saying it to friends that dont have a clue about this stuff, I only came on here cause Im aware people at acknowledge there may be no self so its a bit easier, so at the risk of sounding cheesy or childish you do want to 'kill the lie'.
Anyway I gotta go work, all the best!!
I'm not wondering that at all. Posting in the A&A forum on here and elsewhere on the internet and in real life (TM) I have always come across people who behave like that. Be they Christians or Buddhists or nihilists or clean living advocates... it's very common. It's no mystery to me either. They are convinced they are right and want to share 'the truth'. It's admirable in a way, as long as they are willing to accept they might be wrong.
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To quote one of my favourite philosophers; "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it."
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good idea, I might that do that as well, I just dont want to be trawling across boards with my declarations of enlightenment , you know yourself:DI'll just cherry pick your post here as no point in going over stuff we agree on obviously.
It might make an interesting thread in the Philosophy forum actually. Try in there too.
Ok, I kinda see what your getting at, that people are just saying words to please the crowd but dont really know what they are talking about? or at least it means nothing to them personally?Not quite what I was getting at. I was more saying that a lot of the people there seem not to really know what they are saying themselves. They are just repeating boilerplate and struggle hugely if anyone deviates from the script. Not all of them of course. But quite a few. They may as well just have macros mapped on their keyboards. They can read and repeat lines but they don't appear to have any real understanding of what they are repeating.
My argument to that is after a few posts these people can be spotted a mile away. Maybe not after 1 or 2 posts but it doesnt take long.
My other argument is that people dont want to do that. When I was posting in the build up to my liberation I really wanted it to work, but I promise the LAST thing I was going to start doing was saying "Im done, im liberated, there is no me", unless I truly felt it for the first time. You know when it happens cause you simply cant find the 'me' anymore.
Its also worth noting that the forum isnt a huge crowd, i.e. Ive been only posting for about 2/3 weeks and I recognise all the same heads already that post there. Its not as busy as it looks.
Some of the red colour names (a bit cringy I know) on that forum are extremely talented at spotting the delusion in others, they see some people are trying everything to hold onto that self and in the process they ask fantastic questions. Sometimes aggressively yes, but not always in fairness, I was just reading some threads today and I thought there was alot of debt to them.
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I dont think it would last, you would get "liberated" but it wouldnt take long for people to spot it if you kept posting.
Fair enough. I can see the value in a reputation style system in that sense. But I think it doesn't serve it's purpose too well. I could start an account and in two weeks go from green to blue to red just by boilerplating answers I read in other threads and changing the wording slightly without ever having an understanding of what I was saying.
Anyway I think your reading into the colour thing a bit too much, people stop caring about you once you are liberated. Job done is the way they see it, the thread usually comes to a halt, mine did cause I was done.
Ok possibly your right, I may be a little naive in that sense, but do you honestly know anyone like that that would go through the effort to get that kind of approval online? And to get 'use' of their approval they would have to keep posting, thats where they'd get found out.I also think you underestimate the appeal getting that approval/promotion would have on a lot of the type people that seem to sign up. Looking for meaning, looking for easy answers, looking to belong etc. I know you said jokingly that it sounds like a cult but there is that mentality present a little. My impression is those lads that ask people to take 'free personality tests' on Abbey St. would be drooling all over themselves if they saw a good few of the forum members walking down the street. Again not all of them, or even most, but quite a few.
But point taken, there are lonely people in the world that do that stuff.
Ok my apologies, I didnt realise you requested access, and I get your point about working with the presumption that thing is true. Thats a fair way of doing things.Not at all. I requested access but am still awaiting a confirmation e-mail. I frequently am accused by the religious and the spiritual, the paranormal advocates et el of not having an open mind or writing things off without investigating them. This is not the case at all. I don't just investigate with an open mind I am willing to work on the presumption the thing is true and go from there if that is claimed to be required. But only to a point, of course.
I see your issue, you recognise that the self doesnt exist, you acknowledge it, but you still experience that self. Where you disagree with me is that you dont think the loss of that self means "enlightenment" , am i right?
Well theres only one way to prove me wrong, lose that self and see with your own eyes the clarity and reality of everything around you.
What Im saying is, to prove me wrong go in there and see what they've to say (ok I know you already signed up so there was prob no need for me to say that lol )
Good point, I will be mindful of that so because yes your right , two weeks is nothing, time will tell, thats why I find myself reading other blogs by people that have been liberated longer just to see what its like. And its not all plain sailing, but its still the truth of reality
Fair enough. Whatever works for you, ye know. Just keep it in mind that people claimed the above about all sorts of beliefs and two weeks is a pretty short amount of time. Don't set yourself up for too big a fall too soon. Not to say that there has to be a fall, of course. Just don't go overboard.
Ok but at least my argument not only upholds the laws of physics, but uses physics as a tool to help enlightenment. I look at a real object, physical matter, I say to myself 'thats real', I try and find that self. Nope its completely gone.
I'm not wondering that at all. Posting in the A&A forum on here and elsewhere on the internet and in real life (TM) I have always come across people who behave like that. Be they Christians or Buddhists or nihilists or clean living advocates... it's very common. It's no mystery to me either. They are convinced they are right and want to share 'the truth'. It's admirable in a way, as long as they are willing to accept they might be wrong.
Here is my blog that attempts to explain in as logically and rationally a way as possible why I believe what Im saying is right.
http://theselfisfalse.blogspot.com/2011/04/why-im-not-crazy.html
The only way I can imagine now is by imagining a cloud of "self" around me. My body is real, but that sense of self, that feeling of uniqueness, the extra entity that is "I" is gone.
If this whole thing reverses and I end up wrong , I promise you I will come back and eat humble pie. You only have my word to go by on that but I do promise.
nice!To quote one of my favourite philosophers; "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it."
Anyway give it a go sure,
I think you might find this blog interesting, its a copy and paste of a thread and was me pretty much me 4ish weeks ago in your position. I made some arguments in another forum to another guy and he saw it fit to put them in blog. Basically it was some of my objections against the whole thing. I dont think id even been on ruthless truth yet at this stage. The reason I started the blog was so that I can present the info in my way as oppose to just directing people to Ruthless Truth. Because by the time I started posting on RT I was pretty much sold. I just needed to see it for myself.
You see I am a sceptic by heart as well, heres the blog with the conversation, you might notice I come across extremely curious but very reluctant at the same time, because I was in a 'good place' when looking into this. my writing is the bits he put in red.
http://ghostvirus2011.blogspot.com/2011/04/objections.html0 -
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