Dublin to Cork buses

frag420

Are there any private coach companies that go direct (no stops in ballygobackwards) between Dublin and Cork??

Cheers

frAg

Stark

Don't think so. Your best bet is to try and get a CIE bus at 4 or 6pm on a Friday evening and they often run unadvertised direct services in addition to the main service.

LXFlyer

Aircoach and Bus Eireann are the two operators on the route.

Bus Eireann operate non-stop from Newlands Cross to Portlaoise, but then serve all towns en route.

Aircoach are faster but also serve towns en route.

frag420

cheers for the replies guys,

frAg

Kumsheen

Surely there would be huge demand for a regular Express service. Is there some regulation preventing this?

trad

Kumsheen wrote: »

Surely there would be huge demand for a regular Express service. Is there some regulation preventing this?

Six coaches @ €300k each, 12 drivers to pay and diesel @ €1.44 per litre would be a fair inhibitor.

SandyfordGuy

There was word a while back that someone may have applied for such a service, but as previously said in other threads there is a backlog of applications for new routes, which is being caught up on. It does seem however, they are being quicker than previously at getting through these.

I think there is a market for both though, as there seems to be a lot of people on the Aircoach service recently from the Towns on the way traveling to Dublin Airport.

bk

trad wrote: »

Six coaches @ €300k each, 12 drivers to pay and diesel @ €1.44 per litre would be a fair inhibitor.

So? Priced right, such a service would be massively popular and would quickly pay for itself.

With the train reaching €74 return, a fast non stop service with free wifi and preferably a on board toilet for about €25 return would probably massacre the train service.

Hell, you probably need more then six coaches with all the demand.

trad

bk wrote: »

So? Priced right, such a service would be massively popular and would quickly pay for itself.

With the train reaching €74 return, a fast non stop service with free wifi and preferably a on board toilet for about €25 return would probably massacre the train service.

Hell, you probably need more then six coaches with all the demand.

Yes but mid week off peak trains could come close to the €25 mark. Also if 60 people turn up for a 51 seater coach there your profit out the window running a second coach for 9 passengers express 240 km.

There probably is a demand for an express non stop service from Dublin to Cork and another to Killarney, the new motorway network making it possible for 1 driver legally doing one round trip per day. The set up costs are huge and you'll need deep pockets to keep it running until it becomes profitable, but if you are looking for an Operations Manager feel free to PM me.

If you are successful other operators will jump on the bandwagon and offer a service 30 mins ahead or behind you and then you'll have a price war with no one making money, just look at Dublin - Galway.

bk

trad wrote: »

Yes but mid week off peak trains could come close to the €25 mark.

There really aren't that many €25 fares on the train and even at that the bus can still be almost as fast. Perhaps the bus service could also offer a cheaper fare, say €15 at the same off peak times.

Or only run the bus at peak times.

trad wrote: »

Also if 60 people turn up for a 51 seater coach there your profit out the window running a second coach for 9 passengers express 240 km.

Then only sell tickets online (at peak times at least) and not run a second bus. Obviously only sell tickets for the seats available.

Over time if the demand is there, then you can lay on extra buses. Surely the problem of full buses is a good thing

trad wrote: »

There probably is a demand for an express non stop service from Dublin to Cork and another to Killarney, the new motorway network making it possible for 1 driver legally doing one round trip per day. The set up costs are huge and you'll need deep pockets to keep it running until it becomes profitable, but if you are looking for an Operations Manager feel free to PM me.

Sorry just a potential customer. But I find it hard to believe this couldn't be run profitably.

trad wrote: »

If you are successful other operators will jump on the bandwagon and offer a service 30 mins ahead or behind you and then you'll have a price war with no one making money, just look at Dublin - Galway.

Oh what a terrible situation for the general public!!!

If that happens, then the general public benefits from more options and cheaper prices, until eventually one of the companies pulls out and the remaining company can up prices again. But not by too much or it could become attractive for another company to enter the market and undercut you.

In other words competition at its best and similar to how the airline industry works.

trad

So you want not for profit bus operators to run half empty buses up and down the country. I think that company is called Bus Eireann. They get free coaches of the govenrment, when they loose money with their free half empty coaches the goventment gives them more money to bale them out and then asks them do they want any more free coaches.

In the real world a business has to make a profit. There has to be a return on capital employed. The cost of diesel is relevant to a commercial enterprise. €15 off peak fares would not be profitable given low load factors.

On line bookings are operated on a lot of privately operated bus routes but not everyone has is on the net and people turn up without a booking in large numbers so that's not a runner.

If you leave people behind they'd be on here and other fora slagging you off that you left them behind and that some other bus operator has faster broadband speed. No win situation.

bk

trad wrote: »

So you want not for profit bus operators to run half empty buses up and down the country. I think that company is called Bus Eireann. They get free coaches of the govenrment, when they loose money with their free half empty coaches the goventment gives them more money to bale them out and then asks them do they want any more free coaches.

No, note I say the following above:

Or only run the bus at peak times.

I have no problem with a private operator only running profitable routes and schedules. Not profitable schedules can be covered by a PSO. But there is no reason just Bus Eireann should get PSO's, they should be put out to tender to private operators who might be able to do them cheaper.

trad wrote: »

In the real world a business has to make a profit. There has to be a return on capital employed. The cost of diesel is relevant to a commercial enterprise. €15 off peak fares would not be profitable given low load factors.

I don't know, maybe it would or maybe it wouldn't ,I was just giving €15 as an example.

For off peak, you either don't run at all or you give reduced fares to drive uptake. You could follow the ryanair model, give the first 10 tickets off peak for €15, the rest at €25, etc.

You might still decide to run off peak, even if it is only to break even, just to give a more full timetable and to therefore make it a more attractive service to people (someone who travels off peak this week, might travel peak next week).

It can be better to make just a little profit or break even on off peak services then leave the bus you already paid for sitting in a garage.

Anyway, there are only a very few, extreme times of the day when Irish Rail have cheap fares, even most mid week trains have full or only slightly discounted fares. So you would only have to offer a few journeys at a reduced rate.

trad wrote: »

On line bookings are operated on a lot of privately operated bus routes but not everyone has is on the net and people turn up without a booking in large numbers so that's not a runner.

If you leave people behind they'd be on here and other fora slagging you off that you left them behind and that some other bus operator has faster broadband speed. No win situation.

If people turn up without a ticket, then tough. You are a business, not a charity. You could take them if there are unsold seats, but no guarantee without a booking, plus charge more for cash. They will learn quick enough if they get left behind and will either complain as you say or just book the next time.

You know, for someone who wants to be an operations manager, you seem to be going out of your way to find reasons why it can't be successful.

trad

Points taken bk.

Anyone who would think of going into business without exploring the negatives needs their head examined. Yes it would probably work and it would probably make money.

Question is why hasn't Bus Eireann, Aircoach, Kavanaghs, Citylink, Go-Bus, Tommy Callinan or any other major operator had a go at it? I had been talking over this route with a coach operator this morning before seeing this thread and we still haven't put our finger on why none of the big boys have done it.

LXFlyer

Maybe they have.

Looking at this page suggests that Bus Eireann have been waiting for at least 10 months on an application to run services along the M3.

The NTA CEO did say that there was a massive backlog in licence/route applications when they took over this function from the Department before the end of last year.

Given in recent weeks Dublin Bus route 37 has been given approval to go to the Blanchardstown Centre, and Swords Express permission to extend to Swords Manor, it may well be the case that there is a licence application for a Dublin/Cork express service in the system that has yet to be approved.

Time will tell.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Anyway, there are only a very few, extreme times of the day when Irish Rail have cheap fares, even most mid week trains have full or only slightly discounted fares. So you would only have to offer a few journeys at a reduced rate.

Not true anymore. IE have changed their booking system in the last month to a yield management system.

Basically, it runs as follows:

• EUR 10 euro seats are available on every single intercity service on all routes (including cross-border) but only if you book in advance of the day of travel.
• Each train has a quota of EUR 10 seats, and when this is filled the fare will increase in stages
• If you book on the same day as you are traveling you pay the standard web fare

The key is to book in advance.

As an example I've checked Friday 20th of May for Dublin/Cork:

The 0700, 0800, 1100 and 2100 trains all have seats at EUR 10.
The 1000, 1200, 1400, 1700, 1705, 1800 and 1900 trains are all EUR 20.
The 1500 is EUR 25.
Only the 0900, 1300 and 1600 are EUR 36.

Returning on Sunday 23rd of May:
The 0830, 1030, 1330, 1430, 1530, 1830, 1845 are priced at EUR 10.
The 1230 and 1630 are EUR 25.
Only the 1730 is EUR 36.

frag420

op here..........il give one of you folks 25 euro to drive me to Cork on sat and back on Mon.

cheers

frAg

bk

trad wrote: »

Anyone who would think of going into business without exploring the negatives needs their head examined. Yes it would probably work and it would probably make money.

Of course, you would have to examine it from every angle as a business owner.

I'm only looking at it from the point of view of a potential customer and a fan of public transport and I don't have available to me all the costs that would be involved in running such a service (bus, driver, diesel, insurance, maintenance etc.)

However if Aircoach can do Cork to Dublin return for €22, I find it incredibly hard to believe that a non stop direct service can't be done for the same. In fact I'd expect it to be even more popular.

After all Aircoach takes 3 hours 50 minutes, which is a little long to be on a bus. If you can get it down to 3 hours direct, which is only a little longer then most trains (2:45 to 2:55 for most trains) and do it much cheaper then Irishrail, then I think it would be highly successful.

trad wrote: »

Question is why hasn't Bus Eireann, Aircoach, Kavanaghs, Citylink, Go-Bus, Tommy Callinan or any other major operator had a go at it? I had been talking over this route with a coach operator this morning before seeing this thread and we still haven't put our finger on why none of the big boys have done it.

The assumption everyone is making on this forum, is that someone has already applied for the license, but is waiting on the NTA to approve it.

There can't be any other explanation for it. I'd imagine any and all of the private operators would jump at the opportunity.

Life = Rhythm

This is a very interesting discussion. It would be interesting to see a proper debate on this. The people of this country would greatly benefit from a direct bus/train route between Cork and Dublin.

It is appalling that Irish Rail do not run a direct train between the capital and Cork/Galway each day at 7am and 6pm. It's nearly worse that they do not have wifi onboard. Talk about no regard for business/personal needs. Yet they have been sophisticated enough to take on the Ryanair model in ticket pricing - impressive for a semi-state company.

I understand that Irish Rail rely solely on the Cork-Dublin route to subsidise the losses made on the other routes. In addition to this, you would have to consider how the loss of excise on fuel would affect the exchequer and how loss of tolling revenue could compromise any existing financing agreements between the government and private companies.

The cost and time differential between driving directly to Cork and back (from Dublin) and taking the train has narrowed in recent years to the point where it looks like train ticket prices are set by people who would alternatively drive! If a €25 return for direct route existed, you would see the demand for both rail and private transport hollowed out - never mind the impact of the wifi incentive.

For the reasons like these, I would be surprised to see a bus route approved, particularly under the more business savvy government that has recently taken up the reigns. Leo Varadkar is smart enough to leave this topic alone.

From an economic perspective, the country cannot afford to run a direct line between national capital and regional cities as it would bring down Irish Rail - and cause further national embarrassment. Their saving comes at everyone else's expense.

I would love to hear some logical opinions on this matter.

Note: Aircoach appear to be violating the "spirit" of their service by operating a Cork-Dublin city route. If they are truly an "airport service", then they have no business servicing smaller towns along the way - they should be focused on servicing the airports and
places airport passengers need to get in the most efficient way as possible - i.e. the motorway.

Also; I read somewhere that the Dublin-Galway direct route exists because an application was lodged and approved many years ago and lay dormant until recently. As a result you can travel to Galway quicker and cheaper by bus with wifi and functioning onboard toilet. The effects of the direct bus are surely so damaging as to call into question the viability of any upgrades to the Dublin-Galway train line.

devnull

I don't see how you can say Aircoach are violating the spirit on the Cork route, when they applied for a route direct to Dublin Airport a good few years ago they were refused by the then department of transport, so for a good while they had to run the service to the City centre and get people to change coaches.

About a couple of years ago they once again applied for changes to timetable and this time it was actually approved to run to the airport, of course the name sounds a little bit odd but no doubt when the company was formed and the Cork license obtained it was seen less risky to go with a name that was well known at the Dublin end.

but I don't think you can say that they are violating the spirit of things, just giving people a choice of using them, which isn't a bad thing no? Considering they're 40 minutes quicker than Bus Eireann between Dublin and Cork and they operate both later and earlier services then I think most people would much rather they be called this than it not to exist at all, unless you were connected with a rival or something like this of course!

Additionally on the 6 or 7 times I've used in in the past couple of years, whilst you may say these people in the Town's shouldn't be served, you will be surprised that at least a third of the passengers on such bus are actually from the Town's. As has been discussed to death on this thread, take these passengers/stops away and they don't have a service to/from the airports and the whole service becomes much harder to cover it's costs.

Life = Rhythm

That's enlightening information. The government really invert logic!

I think Aircoach is the best thing to come a long in a while. CIE need to be kept on their toes.

There is obviously a problem getting a license for the Cork Dublin route. The City Link route map says it all: http://www.citylink.ie/index.php/routes-a-timetables/routes

I would have assumed the Aircoach license strictly stated "airport services" - which would put them in a weak position if they were to apply for the direct inter-city route....that perhaps the only way they could successfully win this license would be if they applied for a route between Cork Airport and Dublin Airport, servicing the city centres.

I spoke to one of the Aircoach staff on the phone recently and asked why they don't operate an express inter-city service. The response was that it was not profitable enough. I find this hard to believe when two operators are pretty much running direct services between Galway and Dublin for €17 return.

In New York, many operators operate non-stop services to Boston and Washington. Tickets sell out online days in advance, so people know better than to show up just hoping for a seat. Aircoach could try this model and start out with 2 direct services a day until word gets around. If it doesn't take off, then no great loss. If it took off, they wouldn't have to worry about overheads for some time - it would be a real alternative for motorists and train passengers...forget competing with Bus Eireann!

I think the increase in passenger numbers would far exceed the loss at the smaller towns. Aircoach's business is profit and the governments role to incentivise or provide services to regional towns if they are not being adequately serviced by a private operator. CIE obviously feel differently about their role and until recently have seen an embarrassing service as the way forward for second class citizens who choose to ride the bus!

It doesn't make sense that Aircoach are not making fuller use of the motorway. It would reduce the journey to 2.5hrs, plus steady speed on the motorway makes for cleaner, safer, more comfortable (and cost effective) travel.

highlydebased

Life wrote:

It doesn't make sense that Aircoach are not making fuller use of the motorway. It would reduce the journey to 2.5hrs, plus steady speed on the motorway makes for cleaner, safer, more comfortable (and cost effective) travel.

Of course- but their current license doesn't allow for that.

Kumsheen

My view is that the only reason we do not have licenced non-stop services is to protect the Irish Rail service.

I don't buy the arguement of lack of demand whatsoever. Galway is much smaller than Cork and can sustain multiple Express services. So it's logical that Cork could easily have the potential to exceed this.

There will probably have to be a high speed rail line in place before Express busses are licenced.:(

bk

The excuse of lack of demand is pure bs.

Irish Rail train can carry 493 passengers seated every hour, in 2:45 mins for €74 return.

Are we really saying that there isn't sufficient demand to fill a 60 seater bus, with a 3 hour journey time for about €22 return!!!

Pure BS.

If Galway can sustain a train service, plus four bus services, two of which are hourly direct services, then Cork certainly can sustain one.

BenShermin

I've said it before and I'll say it again, whatever about during the week there is definitely the demand there for non stop services at weekend. One only has to stand in Busaras or Parnell place on Friday and Sunday evenings to see the amount of extra buses that BÉ has to put on for the Dublin/Cork service.

penexpers

Life wrote:

into question the viability of any upgrades to the Dublin-Galway train line.

Yes, because everyone gets on the train in Dublin and gets off the train in Galway.

Armada

Kumsheen wrote: »

My view is that the only reason we do not have licenced non-stop services is to protect the Irish Rail service.

I don't buy the arguement of lack of demand whatsoever. Galway is much smaller than Cork and can sustain multiple Express services. So it's logical that Cork could easily have the potential to exceed this.

There will probably have to be a high speed rail line in place before Express busses are licenced.:(

While I do believe there are many elements in government whose sole prerogative is to protect theirs and their colleagues jobs, I do not think the NTA are overly protective of CIE - they have just granted Kelly Travel a licence for a non stop service between Limerick and Dublin (albeit only as far as the Red Cow Luas)
Perhaps KT will expand that service to Cork to Red Cow - do you think people would go for that?
I am unsure as to whether people will be happy to get off the bus and get onto the LUAS to finish their journey but I guess time will tell...

Kumsheen

Armada wrote: »

While I do believe there are many elements in government whose sole prerogative is to protect theirs and their colleagues jobs, I do not think the NTA are overly protective of CIE - they have just granted Kelly Travel a licence for a non stop service between Limerick and Dublin (albeit only as far as the Red Cow Luas)
Perhaps KT will expand that service to Cork to Red Cow - do you think people would go for that?
I am unsure as to whether people will be happy to get off the bus and get onto the LUAS to finish their journey but I guess time will tell...

I think the main difference with Cork-Dublin though is that it is probably IR's main bread and butter route, compared to other provincial rail services. And the huge financial impact this would have on the whole company if they were to have real competition on it.

Life = Rhythm

I took the Aircoach on Friday and asked the driver if they had made any progress with the inter-city express service. He said that there had been many meetings of late and that the company had taken the decision to start running ~three direct services per day (each way) and the service should commence in a matter of weeks. He told me that they had the license for a long time, which seemed odd.

I took the Dublin Coaches from Limerick this evening and asked their driver for his thoughts on the direct services. He thought that there was certainly something up with the Cork-Dublin route. He seemed to have a lot of info on cost running services, the cost of application and the application process itself. Applications have to state the stops, any change to service would require license amendment and licences expire if not activated within a specified timeframe.

I just hope Aircoach start putting buses on the motorway.

From the above, it must sound like I get some kind of kick out of taking intercity services and hassling drivers!

devnull

It is good if they are starting up a new service for that, although it remains to be seen if it actually happen as there has been many rumors from drivers on many services that have simply not been true.

According to the list of licenses on the NTA, Aircoach have two licenses for Dublin to Cork services though so there could be something in it. It seems the second one was obtained in October, although that could be related to the change in timetable they had recently on the route. One is Dublin to Cork and another is Dublin Airport to Cork.

Oh, and the guy who own's Dublin Coach founded Aircoach before he sold it, so I'd say they know what they're doing also

Conway635

devnull wrote: »

Oh, and the guy who own's Dublin Coach founded Aircoach before he sold it, so I'd say they know what they're doing also

And he was a CIE/Bus Eireann manager for many years before that, so he knows the competition also.

C635

oceanclub

On a tangent, am getting the Aircoach Dublin->Cork. Does anyone know (a) where it leaves from on Westmoreland St (is there a stop beside the old Bank of Ireland?) and (b) does it have a loo?

P.

devnull

The same stop as the Dublin Airport service leaves from:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Westmoreland+Street,+Dublin,+Ireland&hl=en&ll=53.345726,-6.259116&spn=76.219227,214.277344&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=48.956293,107.138672&t=v&hnear=Westmoreland+St,+Dublin,+Ireland&z=3&layer=c&panoid=KBJp0y6QxOQZYBtImzfMEw&cbll=53.345726,-6.259116&cbp=13,-114.7920942544609,,1,6.932789321082836

Some buses have toilets, but the majority don't but there is a 15 min break at Urlingford at a shop with such facilities.