The end of suffering

.same.

How do atheist feel about the notion that a person can radically transform their consciousness and bring about whats known in eastern traditions as enlightenment?

magicbastarder

.same. wrote: »

How do atheist feel about the notion that a person can radically transform their consciousness

you mean getting munted on class A drugs?

mash a scotch bonnet into your face repeatedly. it won't be enlightenment you achieve, but you probably won't be able to tell the difference, what with the delirious pain.

.same.

I don't mean connecting to a source or higher power but just the idea that a person can remain aware and not be a slave to the incessant stream of thoughts.

CerebralCortex

.same. wrote: »

I don't mean connecting to a source or higher power but just the idea that a person can remain aware and not be a slave to the incessant stream of thoughts.

Very little. As in I think very lowly of the idea the way you describe it.

CiaranMT

Meditation, I'm guessing? It's not something I've looked into.

.same.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Very little. As in I think very lowly of the idea the way you describe it.

Well , there's an awful lot more that could be said to describe it, I was just tryin to get away from any supernatural ideas that might go with the idea. I'm sure you are aware of the concept.

.same.

CiaranMT wrote: »

Meditation, I'm guessing? It's not something I've looked into.

Yes, for some it's the ultimate aim of meditation the thinking is that attaining enlightenment will greatly enrich their own lives and the lives of others and thus it's their main purpose in life.

Dave!

As long as you don't have to invoke anything magical or supernatural, I can't criticise it tbh... It's not for me really, but each to their own.

I think Sam Harris (the Jew) is a proponent of that kind of thing, and spent a few years studying it and meditating in caves and shít. Still gets a bit of criticism for it.

.same.

Has Sam Harris done a U turn on it or is he still meditating?

Dave!

No, he's always defended the practice and maintains that you don't need to believe anything "on insufficient evidence" in order to have profound "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) experiences. I don't know if he still does it, but he never changed his position on it.

.same.

All I know about Harris is that he is 1 of 4 atheist, so I assume that he is quiet the skeptic. So considering such a skepticial person as Harris went to the trouble of looking into all this and still considers it worthwhile i'm surprised that more atheist don't consider the possibility of attaining enlightenment or at least taking part in "spiritual" practices.
I don't mean to antagonise, but do you think that atheist identify with the notion of being atheist and reject anything that comes under the heading of spirtiuality without ever really understanding what it is they are rejecting.

AhSureTisGrand

.same. wrote: »

All I know about Harris is that he is 1 of 4 atheist

What? There are 4 atheists?

.same.

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

What? There are 4 atheists?

Oh sorry, I mean the 4 horsemen, you know the 4 leading atheist writters.
Sorry for getting you all confused AhsureTisGrand.

Zillah

Dave! wrote: »

Sam Harris (the Jew)

:pac:

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

What? There are 4 atheists?

Turtwig

Again this has nothing to do with atheism. But I do believe that understanding the mechanics of how your brain works is useful to better understanding yourself and how you make decisions. I don't think there is going to be any sort of Ancients Acension from it though.

.same.

Is that Harris on the Dark horse;)

strobe

.same. wrote: »

All I know about Harris is that he is 1 of 4 atheist, so I assume that he is quiet the skeptic. So considering such a skepticial person as Harris went to the trouble of looking into all this and still considers it worthwhile i'm surprised that more atheist don't consider the possibility of attaining enlightenment or at least taking part in "spiritual" practices.
I don't mean to antagonise, but do you think that atheist identify with the notion of being atheist and reject anything that comes under the heading of spirtiuality without ever really understanding what it is they are rejecting.

Some Buddhists are atheist .same. and I hear they are mad about the oul enlightenment craic.

==================================

See the thing about 'spiritual' practices is the word has a definite association with the supernatural and a lot of atheists tend to be very skeptical about supernatural claims made without proof.

So I do some meditation, and I do some other things which other people, people like you I presume, would call 'spiritual' but I would not.

How do atheist feel about the notion that a person can radically transform their consciousness and bring about whats known in eastern traditions as enlightenment?

Hey I am all for people radically transforming their consciousness. Ask around, I do it most weekends. I'm a big fan.

I'm not seeking enlightenment in the way Buddhists or new-age mystics are though. The whole Buddhist 'suffering is desire, you must free yourself from desire' thing, I don't buy for example. I see where they are coming from but meh.

You used the phrase "a slave to the incessant stream of thoughts". Well I like the thoughts man. The thoughts are fun, they are interesting, they can be put to good use. Don't fear the thoughts, become one with them, use the force. :pac:

I'm sure there are atheists, like the aforementioned Buddhists, or old die hard hippies that seek enlightenment, but it's not for me. I think it's the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for a lot of them the way that Heaven is for Christians. A 'no matter how hard things are right now this perfect peace and love and reward are out there' dealy.

But I do believe that things that others would call 'spiritual practices' can be used to improve our mental well being and make us more content. Sure I do. Some people meditate, some people play golf and some people drop pure MDMA and dance like epileptics to tec-trance. I don't think there is anything supernatural going on and I don't think any of these things are going to lead anyone to the pot of gold but whatever works for you.

Zombrex

.same. wrote: »

How do atheist feel about the notion that a person can radically transform their consciousness and bring about whats known in eastern traditions as enlightenment?

Impossible to tell what I think about "it" without defining properly what "it" is.

"Enlightenment" doesn't help. That can mean anything from someone having a bad LSD trip to realizing you never wanted to major in medicine after all.

I'm certainly all for constant analyzing of one's emotions and thoughts, either through counseling or meditation or what ever.

But I don't think this brings any supernatural benefits. It simply helps sort out the jumble of mental processes going on in your head. I can't stand people who talk about how they have opened a new higher consciousness or some such nonsense.

.same.

Wicknight wrote: »

Impossible to tell what I think about "it" without defining properly what "it" is.

"Enlightenment" doesn't help. That can mean anything from someone having a bad LSD trip to realizing you never wanted to major in medicine after all.

Sure it is, all i'm looking for is your opinion,
I know i've only post a few lines about "it" but in your mind you have some idea of what i'm on about it may not be a well defined idea but who cares, I don't. I'm happy to go with whatever idea you think it is i'm on about (so long as you're honest).
So it is the case, that I trust in your cleverness to have a good enough idea as to what it is i'm on about. All you gotta do then is gimme your opinion.

.same.

Malty_T wrote: »

Again this has nothing to do with atheism. But I do believe that understanding the mechanics of how your brain works is useful to better understanding yourself and how you make decisions. I don't think there is going to be any sort of Ancients Acension from it though.

Well, posting it on spirituality or Buddhism would be a little like asking what do you guys/gals think of the notion that yahwey didn't exist.

fatmammycat

I don't get the 'it' you're talking about either. Can you explain the concept as you ahve been asked more than once now. Telling people you're sure they will get it is not enough.
With age comes a certain kind of wisdom, but I think that's simply accrued from experience. What are these 'spiritual practices' you speak of? I've run marathons, crossing the line at the end gave me a massive rush and an understanding of what I can achieve if I put my mind and body to the test, but there was nothing spiritual about it. As Wicknight says, we use our minds to sort through the jumble of thoughts we have daily, maybe meditation is much like going for a run, listening to music, whatever takes you off the loop for a short spell, but I reject the notion that this elevates my consciouness in any way shape of form, it's just relaxation in a different guise.

Dave!

.same. wrote: »

All I know about Harris is that he is 1 of 4 atheist, so I assume that he is quiet the skeptic. So considering such a skepticial person as Harris went to the trouble of looking into all this and still considers it worthwhile i'm surprised that more atheist don't consider the possibility of attaining enlightenment or at least taking part in "spiritual" practices.
I don't mean to antagonise, but do you think that atheist identify with the notion of being atheist and reject anything that comes under the heading of spirtiuality without ever really understanding what it is they are rejecting.

Well as mentioned, the word 'spiritual' tends to have supernatural connotations. In my experience, people who self-identify as spiritual usually refer to "something greater than ourselves", and "energy". Atheists tend to be materialists, and stuff like that can be a bit off-putting.

However I'm sure that many atheists are prone to self-reflection and engage in the odd profound thought from time to time. Just cos they're not doing it in a cave or chanting "ommmmmmm" while they're doing it doesn't make it irrelevant.

I'm with the others too BTW, you're being a bit vague about what this kind of ritual achieves. I'm generally 'at peace' with the world in the sense that I know my place within it (ie. whatever I want it to be). I could afford to do a bit of yoga or meditation every so often to relax, but I don't see what it would achieve besides relaxation.

.same.

Ok, I had feeling this is route we would go down, you asking for a well defined explaination of "it" and me not being able to give you the defination you require hence the title "end of suffering".
The Buddha used a simple defination of enlightenment as the "end of suffering." Of course, as a defination, it is incomplete. It only tells you what enlightenment is not: no suffering. But whats left when there is no more suffering? The Buddha is silent on that and his silence implies that you have to find out for yourself. He uses a negative defination so as you cannot make it into something to believe in or into a superhuman accomplishment.

Anyways I ain't got much time now but i'll see if I can come up with something a little less vague later on tonight.

fatmammycat

In other words Buddha has no idea was 'enlightenment' was either. Oh great. Glad I didn't waste too much time seeking it out.

Zombrex

.same. wrote: »

All you gotta do then is gimme your opinion.

That was my opinion, what you are talking about isn't defined enough to give any particularly useful or meaningful assessment.

Beruthiel

.same. wrote: »

How do atheist feel about the notion that a person can radically transform their consciousness and bring about whats known in eastern traditions as enlightenment?

I once sat at a small café in Amsterdam and smoked a rather strong joint.
I've never seen such vivid green leaves on a tree before.
Plus, doing the wild thing on that stuff is rather, interesting....
All in all, I was transformed and very enlightened.

Gregor Samsa

.same. wrote: »

I don't mean connecting to a source or higher power but just the idea that a person can remain aware and not be a slave to the incessant stream of thoughts.

Hey, I like my incessant stream of thoughts.

Hookah

Wicknight wrote: »

Impossible to tell what I think about "it" without defining properly what "it" is.
.

I'd say it's a hard, if not impossible, thing to define. It requires direct experience.

Try explaining the taste of water to someone who's never drank it.

Beruthiel wrote: »

I once sat at a small café in Amsterdam and smoked a rather strong joint.
I've never seen such vivid green leaves on a tree before.
Plus, doing the wild thing on that stuff is rather, interesting....
All in all, I was transformed and very enlightened.

Robert Anton Wilson does liken the smoking of cannabis to enlightenment experiences in the Eight Circuit theory, in his book Prometheus Rising.

Zombrex

Hookah wrote: »

I'd say it's a hard, if not impossible, thing to define. It requires direct experience.

Try explaining the taste of water to someone who's never drank it.

I might not be able to explain the taste, but I can explain water.

If all people are talking about is a feeling of enlightenment (with no physical change) then great so long as they don't delude themselves over what it is.

bnt

Meditation? Don't make me laugh. Most people I know cannot sit still for ten minutes. Just sit straight on a normal chair, without talking or fidgeting, for ten minutes, and then we can start talking about "enlightenment".

Hookah

Wicknight wrote: »

I might not be able to explain the taste, but I can explain water.

If all people are talking about is a feeling of enlightenment (with no physical change) then great so long as they don't delude themselves over what it is.

What do you mean by physical change?