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Commercial tax or not.
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18-04-2011 9:16pm#1
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I absolutely agree with you here.
Making false declarations, especially in front of garda is a very serious offence.
The problem lies somewhere else though.
I asked if someone could quote a Law prohibiting usage of commercially taxed vehicles for private use from time to time.
What you linked here, are declarations which motor tax offices might require - but not Law.
I think that by asking people to fill in these declarations, motor tax offices are breaking the Law, as there isn't any Law with such prohibition.
I was quoting a appropriate SI on this forum few weeks ago, and it's pretty clear that there is nothing stopping you to use a commercially taxed van for private purposes, assuming it's main use is for commercial purposes.
I actually don't have a van and I'm not planning having one in nearest future, but if I was in a situation that motor tax office would ask me to fill in such declaration, I would ask them to explain which Law would require me to fill it in. If they couldn't answer, and persist on requesting declarationi to be filled in, the case would probably end up in court, where I assume I could win the case, because of lack of Law which would require me to fill in such declaration.
Sorry but that doesn't tally..
You cannot state "Making false declarations, especially in front of garda is a very serious offence.I was quoting a appropriate SI on this forum few weeks ago, and it's pretty clear that there is nothing stopping you to use a commercially taxed van for private purposes, assuming it's main use is for commercial purposes.
The fact that you have to make a false declaration to a Garda (which you admit is a serious offense) in order to get the vehicle taxed is exactly what is stopping you from using it for private purposes legally..
Just because road traffic or revenue acts don't specifically call out a position on commercial motor tax doesn't make it lawful to mis-declare particulars to the Garda as part of the process. And I would assume that's where it becomes illegal (and therefore punishable as per the RF100a) to use the vehicle for private use (i.e. falsely declare), not because of any omissions in other areas of law.
Edit - Meant to addI think that by asking people to fill in these declarations, motor tax offices are breaking the Law, as there isn't any Law with such prohibition.
I think this is the source of your confusion (although as always, I am happy to be corrected).. The law doesn't dictate the process, it would dictate the requirement for motor tax.. The process how you get that motor tax would never have nor would it require legislation, so therefore no law needs to exist. One could reasonably assume you could and would be found guilty if it went to court. The law doesn't state I need to pay X amount for my tax either.. but I cannot claim it for free because of the lack of specific legislation.
As an analogy, I am required by law to notify revenue of my taxable income. I cannot ring them and shout a number down the phone at them and hang up because the law doesn't specifically state which forms and boxes i need to fill in.. If I did, I would be prosecuted for not filing a tax return and it's a given I would be found guilty. It would be fair to assume that the motor tax situation would not be largely different (even ignoring that fact you would already knowingly have made a false declaration to the Garda/Motor Tax Office).0 -
I think you greatly misunderstood my post.Sorry but that doesn't tally..
You cannot state "
The fact that you have to make a false declaration to a Garda (which you admit is a serious offense) in order to get the vehicle taxed is exactly what is stopping you from using it for private purposes legally..
Just because road traffic or revenue acts don't specifically call out a position on commercial motor tax doesn't make it lawful to mis-declare particulars to the Garda as part of the process. And I would assume that's where it becomes illegal (and therefore punishable as per the RF100a) to use the vehicle for private use (i.e. falsely declare), not because of any omissions in other areas of law.
First of all I was absolutely not saying, that it was all right to sign the declaration, and then use the car for private, as there is no Law prohibiting it. If someone signs a declaration, then he has to adhere to what he declared.I think this is the source of your confusion (although as always, I am happy to be corrected
).. The law doesn't dictate the process, it would dictate the requirement for motor tax.. The process how you get that motor tax would never have nor would it require legislation, so therefore no law needs to exist. One could reasonably assume you could and would be found guilty if it went to court. The law doesn't state I need to pay X amount for my tax either.. but I cannot claim it for free because of the lack of specific legislation.
You are a bit wrong here.
The Law does dictate the process and requirements for motor tax.
And yes - the Law does state the you need to pay X amount of motortax for certain kind of vehicle. It's all in legislation. So there is no doubt about how much motor tax have to be paid. To be honest the law is quite precise in here.
Take a look: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2008/en/act/pub/0024/print.html
As an analogy, I am required by law to notify revenue of my taxable income. I cannot ring them and shout a number down the phone at them and hang up because the law doesn't specifically state which forms and boxes i need to fill in.. If I did, I would be prosecuted for not filing a tax return and it's a given I would be found guilty. It would be fair to assume that the motor tax situation would not be largely different (even ignoring that fact you would already knowingly have made a false declaration to the Garda/Motor Tax Office).
I'm not very familiar with revenue Law, but I'm sure there is a Law stating exactly which forms you have to fill in, and that this forms are provided as attachements to this Law.
Conclusion.
I never said it's ok to sign declaration and use a vehicle for private purposes.
Only what I said, what anyone should do is to refuse to sign above declaration, and request a application for motortax to be processed without above declaration, as there is no ground in legislation to be requested to declare the above.0 -
Conclusion.
I never said it's ok to sign declaration and use a vehicle for private purposes.
Only what I said, what anyone should do is to refuse to sign above declaration, and request a application for motortax to be processed without above declaration, as there is no ground in legislation to be requested to declare the above.
My response was based on your initial response ofIf you have a van which you use for work, and it's taxed commercially, there's nothing stopping you from using it for private purposes as well.
Which i would argue is still untrue, as the acts you listed state
"the vehicle is used in a condition or manner or for a purpose which would, if it was used solely in that condition or manner or for that purpose, render it chargeable with duty at a rate higher than that at which duty has been paid".... "duty shall become and be chargeable on the vehicle at the higher rate"
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1952/en/act/pub/0024/print.html#sec1
So even if you did manage to get a commercial tax certificate by winning your court case, as soon as you use it for SD&P, you are now incorrectly taxed and liable for Private taxation.. so there is still something stopping you from using it 0 -
My response was based on your initial response of
Which i would argue is still untrue, as the acts you listed state
"the vehicle is used in a condition or manner or for a purpose which would, if it was used solely in that condition or manner or for that purpose, render it chargeable with duty at a rate higher than that at which duty has been paid".... "duty shall become and be chargeable on the vehicle at the higher rate"
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1952/en/act/pub/0024/print.html#sec1
So even if you did manage to get a commercial tax certificate by winning your court case, as soon as you use it for SD&P, you are now incorrectly taxed and liable for Private taxation.. so there is still something stopping you from using it
I wasn't aware of that.
It pretty much proves that I was wrong.
It also explains, why trucks used both for business and private use, have to be taxed as commercial.0 -
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