Spray Foam Instalation Pics

paddy147

I decided to get both the attics spray foamed today
The company,<SNIP> arrived at 9am this morning.I chose <SNIP> as they use an Irish made bio foam and its also NSAI certified too.
They took about 1 hour to set the system up as the spray foam is a 2 part chemical that is mixed together and then heated to around 50 degrees C before being spraying into the attic spaces.
The foam is a biofoam and its breathable which allows the roof structure to breath yet its fireproof,water tight and has very good thermal and accoustic properties.

It was mad seeing a spray of foam expanding to 100 times it size in a matter of seconds.

I also had special vent cards installed to keep an air gap in the roof.
The actual wall plates and gable walls were also sprayed.

I take my hat off to the 2 lads who got up into the attics to spray the foam in,as the heat off the stuff was unreal at the time.The heating comming down out of both attics was enough to make me go back downstairs and sit in the garden.
So between the house being fully insulated internally and now the attics spray foamed,is should mean no massive heating bills ion the winter time and the heat retaining its heat for hours and hours.Im very happy with the end result and how <SNIP> approached the job and their manner too.
Pics.:)
<SNIP>

Poor Uncle Tom

You know better than that paddy147,

14 day ban.....

sinnerboy

Those vent cards don't look breathable. If they are not condensation will form on them , on their underside and the vent gap they create will have no meaningful function....

Carlow52

I am a bit confused here

Post 4 in the link below
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71766626

shows a before and after pic of the old attic space with what looks like the trad black felt and it seems to have been a full fill job with the foam.

In the pics in this thread the black 'spacers' were used, with SB raising the question as to their fit for purpose(ness) or lack there of.

hence my confusion:(

Ps IMO it would be best if all these pictures were posted in either one thread or the other.
With suitable tags the information will be findable

Duffbeer

Could anyone tell me what are the implications of spraying this open cell 800 direct to the breathable felt, i.e. leave out the drip cards? I just got a price from a supplier and they told me that there is no need for the black drip cards.
This is from a BIO FOAM recommended installer by the way, not a "cowboy"!
Thanks

sydthebeat

BTW thats not what id call a tidy job at all!!!

have they never heard of cleaning off the excess to the rafter level??

BryanF

Duffbeer wrote: »

Could anyone tell me what are the implications of spraying this open cell 800 direct to the breathable felt, i.e. leave out the drip cards? I just got a price from a supplier and they told me that there is no need for the black drip cards.
This is from a BIO FOAM recommended installer by the way, not a "cowboy"!
Thanks

As the name suggests the idea of the vent cards is to retain natural ventilation in your roof space (good for timber structure etc).

As Sinnerboy said, I'd like to know how breathable these vent cards are.

sydthebeat

Duffbeer wrote: »

Could anyone tell me what are the implications of spraying this open cell 800 direct to the breathable felt, i.e. leave out the drip cards? I just got a price from a supplier and they told me that there is no need for the black drip cards.
This is from a BIO FOAM recommended installer by the way, not a "cowboy"!
Thanks

maybe have a read of this

heinbloed

Don't worry, it has a NSAI certificate ......(smiley).

But work out the diffusion rate yourself, try wufi or the like, NSAI propably didn't ask for it.....

@ Duffboy:

The card boards seen in the OP's thread are there to allow the felt to sag in the center, between two beams. To create a channel between the loadbearing timber beams where the blown-in water can run down.

If the card boards wheren't installed the expanding foam would push-up the felt and the blown-in water would have to run down on resp. over the load bearing timber.
And since there are nail holes passing through the felt (nails are used to fix the battens on the beams) there are holes in the felt, allowing the water to penetrate the timber.
And load bearing timber must be kept dry, hence the felt.

The man who told you there is no need for these card boards or a similar meassure is a cowboy.

paddy147

sydthebeat wrote: »

BTW thats not what id call a tidy job at all!!!

have they never heard of cleaning off the excess to the rafter level??

I will be reply to your rather presumptious and smart reply.

I was asked by the company if I wanted it shaved/trimmed back to rafter level,but I said leave it,as the attic is too small to use as a room or habbitable space.

It was my choice not to have it trimmed back.

Poor Uncle Tom

It's interesting that a company asks whether it should tidy up after itself....

Regardless of who determines whether a clean up is necessary or not, it doesn't change the outcome, that a job being portrayed as top-notch is actually very messy.

Poor Uncle Tom

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

It's interesting that a company asks whether it should tidy up after itself....

Regardless of who determines whether a clean up is necessary or not, it doesn't change the outcome, that a job being portrayed as top-notch is actually very messy.

Maybe the OP got a discount for not having the clean up!

Poor Uncle Tom

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe the OP got a discount for not having the clean up!

Maybe, but the question still has to be asked, what company would let pictures of an unfinished/messy job go out publically to represent it's work?

paddy147

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Maybe, but the question still has to be asked, what company would let pictures of an unfinished/messy job go out publically to represent it's work?

Are you able to read?????:rolleyes:

read what I posted in my previous post,then actually let it sink into your brain for once.

I DECIDED to post pics of the spray foam,this had nothing to do with the spray foam company,it was my decision to post them.

Now if you have a problem with that,then thats your problem and not mine.

Stop baiting and looking for a fight and try copping on instead and showing a little respect.Ive nothing more to say to you now,as Im not getting drawn into any stupid arguements


regards.


P.S.-I love all these keyboard warriors and "so called know it alls" (who actually know nothing) but who begrudge others for what they do or get done,I really do love these people.

Poor Uncle Tom

paddy, attack the post not the poster....(consider that your warning).

I think I have valid concerns, your thread title is "Spray foam installation pics", not "Spray foam - the cheaper unfinished version" and when you put pics up for viewing/criticism then you should be able to take some.

I don't consider your pictures to show a finished job, therefore I consider the job to be untidy and messy in appearance. This doesn't reflect well on the people who carried out the work, imo.

I know if I was going to put up pics of an example of some work I would like it to be completed and reflect the work at it's possible best.

muffler

paddy147 wrote: »

I will be reply to your rather presumptious and smart reply.

paddy147 wrote: »

Are you able to read?????:rolleyes:

read what I posted in my previous post,then actually let it sink into your brain for once.

paddy147 wrote: »

Stop baiting and looking for a fight and try copping on instead and showing a little respect.Ive nothing more to say to you now,as Im not getting drawn into any stupid arguements

paddy147 wrote: »

P.S.-I love all these keyboard warriors and "so called know it alls" (who actually know nothing) but who begrudge others for what they do or get done,I really do love these people.

Paddy you are causing all types of problems here and making a mockery of our time and efforts that we dedicate to ensure the smooth running of the forum. You have been warned on numerous occasions to post in accordance with the forum charter but the warnings have fallen on deaf ears.

You even went to a different forum and made a very serious allegation of being harassed by one of the mods here and that is completely unacceptable.

Accordingly I am banning you from this forum permanently.

muffler

I am going to lock this shortly but will leave it open for now to afford an opportunity for the company involved to respond if they so choose.

yop

The company were on the DIY section if anyone wants more detail. As said though its very messy.

Macspower

Hi Mods, Just seeing this now lads..thanks for the opportunity to reply. I will make a post tomorrow when I get a chance...

muffler

Opportunity passed up.

Thread locked.

muffler

Thread opened following contact with macspower

Topper74

Just on those airflow panels that you tack against the felt,

Can you get your roofer to double batten against the felt instead? I'm not sure how this this would work in principal seeing as the foam covers all/
It was mentioned to me by a supplier.

Macspower

Ok guys bear with me here.. I will reply to each post individually... sorry for lack of response as my son was in hospital and I wasn't online...

Macspower

Topper74 wrote: »

Just on those airflow panels that you tack against the felt,

Can you get your roofer to double batten against the felt instead? I'm not sure how this this would work in principal seeing as the foam covers all/
It was mentioned to me by a supplier.

yeah double battening and scarting is perfectly acceptable but probably a lot more expencive..

Macspower

Carlow52 wrote: »

I am a bit confused here

Post 4 in the link below
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71766626

shows a before and after pic of the old attic space with what looks like the trad black felt and it seems to have been a full fill job with the foam.

In the pics in this thread the black 'spacers' were used, with SB raising the question as to their fit for purpose(ness) or lack there of.

hence my confusion:(

Ps IMO it would be best if all these pictures were posted in either one thread or the other.
With suitable tags the information will be findable

Paddy had 2 parts of his house done.. The new part had the new breathable felt requiring the vent card installation. The older part of the house had a rigid bitumen felt that didn't require the vent card.. hence the 2 different pictures..

Macspower

Duffbeer wrote: »

Could anyone tell me what are the implications of spraying this open cell 800 direct to the breathable felt, i.e. leave out the drip cards? I just got a price from a supplier and they told me that there is no need for the black drip cards.
This is from a BIO FOAM recommended installer by the way, not a "cowboy"!
Thanks

the implications would be that it is possible for the felt to be pushed upwards creating a mound and valley effect leaving a palce for the water to sit and eventually break down your felt and get to your timbers.

I can only speak for our company when I say we always recommend installation fo the vent card on breathable felt.. some people opt not to use them.. All we can do is give them the information.

Macspower

sinnerboy wrote: »

Those vent cards don't look breathable. If they are not condensation will form on them , on their underside and the vent gap they create will have no meaningful function....

the vent cards are made from high impact polystyrene so they themselves are not breathable... but they have nothing to do with breathability.. have a look this thread and it might explain better what their function is.. if not I will go into more detail later

Macspower

sydthebeat wrote: »

BTW thats not what id call a tidy job at all!!!

have they never heard of cleaning off the excess to the rafter level??

Spray foam by it's nature is not asthetic. It has a rough unsmooth finish to it. The cleaning off as you call it, is actually called shaving... this is only done when someone is going to slab over it...

Insulation must be filled flush or over the timbers to prevent the occurance of cold spots.
This was determined through our structural details and condensation risk evaluations.
It is best practice in areas where the insulation is not been covered to leave the product untrimmed.
The reasoning behind this is that the outer skin on the insulation acts as a vapour retarder not a vapour control layer
In roof structures which generally get the slope of the roof insulated it is for the purpose of significantly reducing healt loss due to air intrusion. These households use their attics for light storage not for living areas.

since leaving the skin on with an uneven finish provides the best insulation it is best proactice not to trim back unless turning the area inot a living space...

this pic here shows a job that has been shaven back to the rafters. note the top part that is not living space is not shaven

BryanF

Macspower wrote: »

This was determined through our structural details and condensation risk evaluations.

The reasoning behind this is that the outer skin on the insulation acts as a vapour retarder not a vapour control layer

In roof structures which generally get the slope of the roof insulated it is for the purpose of significantly reducing healt loss due to air intrusion.

Can you provide the data and calculations for the 'condensation risk evaluation' with regards to the existing OP construction (with the bitumen felt). Thanks.

sydthebeat

macspower, i was under the impression that spray foam insulation required a vapour control layer on the warm side of the product as part of their NSAI certification.

I have seen this explicitly stated for both the icynene product and the bio foam.

Does your product not require this?

Macspower

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

It's interesting that a company asks whether it should tidy up after itself....

Regardless of who determines whether a clean up is necessary or not, it doesn't change the outcome, that a job being portrayed as top-notch is actually very messy.

Hi Tom... there was never a discussion with anyone about who cleans up... Cleaning us is our responsibility..

See above reply regarding shaving back...

In a non living area the foam doesn't look pleasing to the eye...

eg here is an example of a well insulated and air tight attic



Similar to paddys this is not pleasing to the eye.. however if your not living in it why cut off part of the insulation that you have paid for if your not slabbing it... it can always be shaved at a later date. I agree shaving it makes it look good but in it's original form is best for insulation.

see pic in thread above for shaven version of the same...

I can assure you all jobs that our company do pass our strict quality control procedure and are carred out to strict guidelines of best practice. This is also followed by testing by biofoam in their NSAI audit system..

Macspower

BryanF wrote: »

Can you provide the data and calculations for the 'condensation risk evaluation' with regards to the existing OP construction (with the bitumen felt). Thanks.

Pm me some contact details and I will have our tech guys get the information you require

Macspower

sydthebeat wrote: »

macspower, i was under the impression that spray foam insulation required a vapour control layer on the warm side of the product as part of their NSAI certification.

I have seen this explicitly stated for both the icynene product and the bio foam.

Does your product not require this?

Some of the info I already posted is relevent to this... I have copied and pasted in sections

We always advise customers to use a vapour control layer.
This relates to situations where where the product is been slabbed over. It is best practice in areas where the insulation is not been covered to leave the product untrimmed.
The reasoning behind this is that the outer skin on the insulation acts as a vapour retarder not a vapour control layer.
In roof structures which generally get the slope of the roof insulated it is for the purpose of significantly reducing heat loss due to air intrusion and heat escape. These households use their attics for light storage not for living areas. In these cases best practice is to leave skin on and not trim back to the rafter. In these cases a vapour control layer is not normally fitted. On many occassions the engineer on the build will decide from our Air Tightness Tests (available from our website www.weatherseal.ie under technical section) that an air tightness membrane is not required

Macspower

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Maybe, but the question still has to be asked, what company would let pictures of an unfinished/messy job go out publically to represent it's work?

We had no hand act or part in publishing these pictures.. there were taken and posted by the OP and posted on his own behalf ..

The job is neither unfinished or messy ... some of the pics look like they were taken during the insulation process whcih would of course have some foam on the floor.

I have covered most of this already

BryanF

Macspower wrote: »

We had no hand act or part in publishing these pictures.. there were taken and posted by the OP and posted on his own behalf ..

The job is neither unfinished or messy ... some of the pics look like they were taken during the insulation process whcih would of course have some foam on the floor.

I have covered most of this already

I guess this is down to opinion and interpretation, IMHO a good tradesman takes pride in his/her work and even when that work is not visible in the everday part of a house, standards should remain high. It appears to be look of the thing that's causing this backlash...

sydthebeat

Macspower wrote: »

Some of the info I already posted is relevent to this... I have copied and pasted in sections

We always advise customers to use a vapour control layer.
This relates to situations where where the product is been slabbed over. It is best practice in areas where the insulation is not been covered to leave the product untrimmed.
The reasoning behind this is that the outer skin on the insulation acts as a vapour retarder not a vapour control layer.
In roof structures which generally get the slope of the roof insulated it is for the purpose of significantly reducing heat loss due to air intrusion and heat escape. These households use their attics for light storage not for living areas. In these cases best practice is to leave skin on and not trim back to the rafter. In these cases a vapour control layer is not normally fitted. On many occassions the engineer on the build will decide from our Air Tightness Tests (available from our website www.weatherseal.ie under technical section) that an air tightness membrane is not required

i understand what you are saying but it doesnt answer my question.

surly a condition of certification is not something that can be left up to a customer to decide on? If theres no VCL then doesnt that invalidate the certification?
Also, assuming foil backed plasterboard is the standard method of covering the rafters, it should be noted that foil backed boards are NOT Vapour control layers.

As the outer skin acts as a vapour retarder, as you say, then, assuming it acts in a similar fashion to a vapour barrier, this is not a satisfactory method. The vapour retardent trait of the insulation will focus water vapour to the only way it can escape through the construction ie the roof structural timbers.
Also, in conditions during warm weather where the external is warmer than the attic, the interstitial condensation will be pushed back into the construction and again focused onto the roof timbers.
The call in the certification for use of a VCL is to prevent the situation i have outlined above.

can you clarify?

Macspower

BryanF wrote: »

I guess this is down to opinion and interpretation, IMHO a good tradesman takes pride in his/her work and even when that work is not visible in the everday part of a house, standards should remain high. It appears to be look of the thing that's causing this backlash...

the pictures normally published in brochures and websites are often of shaved back rafters and photos are taken professionally...

In this case I think it is a good example of the real world of spray foam... warts and all..

Standards are always high in our company and as I stated earlier all work is carried out to strict guidelines and subject to auditing.

All areas seen or unseen are insulated and sealed without exception. A non living area will always have a rough finish to it as stated above

Macspower

sydthebeat wrote: »

i understand what you are saying but it doesnt answer my question.

surly a condition of certification is not something that can be left up to a customer to decide on? If theres no VCL then doesnt that invalidate the certification?
Also, assuming foil backed plasterboard is the standard method of covering the rafters, it should be noted that foil backed boards are NOT Vapour control layers.

As the outer skin acts as a vapour retarder, as you say, then, assuming it acts in a similar fashion to a vapour barrier, this is not a satisfactory method. The vapour retardent trait of the insulation will focus water vapour to the only way it can escape through the construction ie the roof structural timbers.
Also, in conditions during warm weather where the external is warmer than the attic, the interstitial condensation will be pushed back into the construction and again focused onto the roof timbers.
The call in the certification for use of a VCL is to prevent the situation i have outlined above.

can you clarify?

I'll get to this later as I have to go out to a job now..

Macspower

sydthebeat

Macspower wrote: »

theres no conspiracy here mac

we're just trying to educate ourselves on this fairly new product to the irish market, we cant do this without knowing all the facts.

Poor Uncle Tom

Macspower wrote: »

The job is neither unfinished or messy ... some of the pics look like they were taken during the insulation process whcih would of course have some foam on the floor.

Just to point out - if a pic is taken during the insulation process then it is taken before the job is finished, ie., unfinished.

However, my question is to do with the surface spread of flame during a fire. It is my understanding that this type of insulation needs to be covered with a fireline board, such as plasterboard, in order to complete the job and stop the risk of rapid fire spread in the event of a fire. Is this wrong?

martinn123

Wow great promotion of a business here.40 posts in this thread and 60 in DIY.OK if I post a few pics of one of my Conservatories in progress, and all the lads can post questions on the various aspects of the build.???Hope mac hasn't taken the hump, with his Obama quote he could get a lot more coverage here Thanks

BryanF

martinn123 wrote: »

Wow great promotion of a business here.40 posts in this thread and 60 in DIY.OK if I post a few pics of one of my Conservatories in progress, and all the lads can post questions on the various aspects of the build.???Hope mac hasn't taken the hump, with his Obama quote he could get a lot more coverage here Thanks

Once your not one of those fella's that sticks Rads in it and claims its got great U-values

martinn123

Whats a U Value.

Macspower

Just at work now guys.. I'll get back to Q+A when I get back in front of a computer

Sent from windows 7 phone.

Poor Uncle Tom

Macspower wrote: »

I'll get to this later as I have to go out to a job now..

Macspower wrote: »

Just at work now guys.. I'll get back to Q+A when I get back in front of a computer

Sent from windows 7 phone.

Any chance of some answers here?

muffler

probably still shaving Paddy147

BryanF

Originally Posted by BryanF
Can you provide the data and calculations for the 'condensation risk evaluation' with regards to the existing OP construction (with the bitumen felt). Thanks.

Macspower wrote: »

Pm me some contact details and I will have our tech guys get the information you require

Mcaspower,
I'd appreciate the data discussed in the forum regarding the breathabilty
I haven't received anything yet
maybe some of the typical values and moisture results of a standard build up with your insulation. thanks

martinn123

martinn123 wrote: »

Wow great promotion of a business here.*.OK if I post a few pics of one of my Conservatories in progress, and all the lads can post questions on the various aspects of the build.??? Thanks

While you are waiting for Mac to get back, how about my question??

Poor Uncle Tom

martinn123 wrote: »

While you are waiting for Mac to get back, how about my question??

A third party started this thread with all the enthusiasm of a child with its first ice cream, but the pictures threw up more questions than they answered. As a result a company representative posted to answer the questions asked. There remains a few questions which they have not answered, very pertinent questions about the entire system, imo.

Anyway, I don't believe it was the company's intention to start this thread as that would be a breach of the forum charter, as it would clearly be a breach of the charter for you to post advertising your company/product.

I would also like to point out that your last posts on this thread are off-topic, which has to end here.

martinn123

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

I would also like to point out that your last posts on this thread are off-topic, which has to end here.

Fair point, sorry, I was just trying to insert a small amount of humour, as its been 13 days since mac said he would get back to his computer, and the tension is killing me..........Exits stage left.