Union memeber still away with the fairies-CPSU thread

Einhard

I as reading a thread there about a particular PS union, and how, according to the originator of the thread, their members were "away with the fairies". Someone else mentioned the CPSU and their latest motions, and, as the thread was not related to the CPSU, it was reaspnably enough ruled out of order. The Mod though, did suggest that those who wish to discuss the CPSU motions, start their own thread. So this is it...

I'm not anti-PS. My mother worked at a low grade in the civil service, and many of my friends work very hard in their positions in the PS. Unlike some posters here, I think that a 14% cut in wages, which I understad is the average experienced in the PS, is a huge imposition on people, especially those with mortgages etc. While I think the cuts were necessary, I'm not one of those people who demand further swinging reductions in pay and conditions.

In other words, I'm pretty objective. I think that most Irish people are the same. We want to see the PS pay its share of the burden, but we don't want to see it hammered unnecessarily. We acknowledge the hit that pblic workers have taken in their pay packets, but still want comprehensive reform of that sector. We are potential allies of public sector workers, in that we stand for fair play rather than partisan interests.

And yet, the CPSU basically threw it all back in our faces. Any support I have for the members of that particular union (and I acknowledge it's but one) evaporated with news of their conference this weekend. I understand that they're opposed to fyrther wage cuts, and I could back them in that, they represent the lower paid, those who can least afford such reductions. I can understand a certain militancy when it comes to protecting basic pay etc. However, the CPSU ent much further this weekend. In the midst of one of the greatest financial and economic crises ever to hit any state, they basically stated that they will resist attempts to reform the public sector. This is shocking. It's an outrage. Even if it costs them nothing at all in pay, the members of the CPSU will refuse to reform their work practises to ensure a better service to the public, to those who pay their wages. They basically spat in our faces. Their disdain for us could not be more clear.

This isn't about their wages. This is about them making an effort to reform their practises and their routines. It's an effort to make the PS more responsive to the general need. If it involved a cut to their wages, I could understand the position of the CPSU. But they are against reform regardless of how it affects their pay packets. They are against reform full stop. I understand the importance of unions, particularly their historical importance, and we all owe a debt to them for their previous efforts on behalf of the oridinary worker. But we owe the CPSU, and the members who voted against co-operation with reform in the midst of such an economic crisis, nothing but our contempt and disdain. As I said, I've nothing against the PS as such, and I acknowledge the sacrifices made by many PS workers, but my blood is boiling at this action by the CPSU. Even Blair Horan had the decency to look sheepish tonight on the news. If the government decide to take on the CPSU, I for one wlill support them wholeheartedly.

PS: If this turns into a PS bashing thread, it'll be locked. So can we keep this about the actions of the CPSU?

femur61

Reform for the PS in essence is in the terms of our bailout, it was the mantra of the parties in the general election. Blair Horan should be more vocal in their lack of support for reform in their sector; it doesn't look good at all. Considering the country in literally in receivership and the tax payer are paying their wages.

therecklessone

Einhard wrote: »

Even if it costs them nothing at all in pay, the members of the CPSU will refuse to reform their work practises to ensure a better service to the public, to those who pay their wages.

Until such time as the membership of the CPSU is balloted on these proposals then all that has happened is that delegates to the Annual Conference have voted in favour of motions to oppose reform and to strike if pay cuts are imposed.

There are a lot of variables that have to be taken into account (many unknown to us in fairness) about this development. It is by no means certain that the general membership will back this. If I am wrong on that then God help them, but they are going to get royally fúcked as a result.

sollar

My union supports croke park and is happy to implement changes.

If the CPSU reject these reforms then they are leaving themselves wide open to mass sackings.

tayto lover

We don't know the full story with regards to the C.P.S.U. These are the lowest paid members of the Public Sector, cleaners etc. They also suffered many cuts and the U.S.C. applies to them also. Many are on the breadline and not too far above dole rates. I know one of them and his wages are about 20/30 euro above what he would get for lying at home in bed and claiming the dole but he has a work ethic and chooses to work, pay taxes, health insurance etc.
Its very easy for someone to criticise these workers for wanting to defend their living standard but please read up on it first before you comment as they are obviously not considering this action just to be awkward !!

Slydice

sollar wrote: »

If the CPSU reject these reforms then they are leaving themselves wide open to mass sackings.

So, it looks like they don't want more pay cuts or more taxes on their wages.

I found their pay scales here:
http://www.cpsu.ie/images/NewsManager/Civil_Service_Payscales.xlsx

I found Jobseeker's welfare rates here:
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/sw19/Pages/sw19_sect6.aspx

and rent supplement rates for Dublin (where most of these folks live) here:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/rent_supplement.html

Doing some simple maths .. to include stuff like these folks paying for rent, bus, childcare etc... it almost looks like they are getting close to welfare being a better option

beeftotheheels

Einhard wrote: »

This isn't about their wages. This is about them making an effort to reform their practises and their routines. It's an effort to make the PS more responsive to the general need. If it involved a cut to their wages, I could understand the position of the CPSU. But they are against reform regardless of how it affects their pay packets. They are against reform full stop. I understand the importance of unions, particularly their historical importance, and we all owe a debt to them for their previous efforts on behalf of the oridinary worker. But we owe the CPSU, and the members who voted against co-operation with reform in the midst of such an economic crisis, nothing but our contempt and disdain. As I said, I've nothing against the PS as such, and I acknowledge the sacrifices made by many PS workers, but my blood is boiling at this action by the CPSU. Even Blair Horan had the decency to look sheepish tonight on the news. If the government decide to take on the CPSU, I for one wlill support them wholeheartedly.

I'm with you on this. You try to defend the public sector and then you get a vote like this. It does suggest that their members have absolutely no understanding of what the country is going through. It also runs a risk I would think, of having the Irish Unions end up where the British unions were in the late 1970s.

I remember having an argument in the real world when Howlin got public sector reform. I'm not sure it was a bad thing. If you put a private sector FGer in that dept the Unions would feel threatened, Joan could have been the same.

If you give them an aging Labor public sector alumnus, then if he has the courage of his convictions and tells them how bad things are, they have no reason to suspect any agenda other than trying to improve the state the country is in.

I hope I'm right, I hope that Howlin has no/ very limited plans to run again and is prepared to do a Lemass on it (Lemass as Taoiseach, not Lemass as MfF which was a very different animal). To talk to the Unions as one of their own, and convince them to agree to huge public sector reforms. To make the hard decisions and take the risk of becoming personally unpopular in order to do the right thing for the country.

And yet, even though I am not yet proven wrong on Howlin's intentions, when I see Union votes like yesterday I have to bite back the urge to suggest that we need a ban on union membership until such point as the EU/IMF have left town.

The offensive element in the vote was, as you said, the fact that it supports the conclusion that they don't understand where we are at, and worse, that they are not even prepared to try to understand it.

I don't want Ireland to end up like Tatcher's Britain, while it was economically profitable it became a hugely divisive society which is still recovering, and to my mind that was too high a price to pay.

But if the Unions don't cop on, that we are all in this together and that we need to find a way out together, which will involve pain all over the place, they run the risk of behaving like a bee - stinging us and bringing about their own demise as a result.

tayto lover

Slydice wrote: »

So, it looks like they don't want more pay cuts or more taxes on their wages.

I found their pay scales here:
http://www.cpsu.ie/images/NewsManager/Civil_Service_Payscales.xlsx

I found Jobseeker's welfare rates here:
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/sw19/Pages/sw19_sect6.aspx

and rent supplement rates for Dublin (where most of these folks live) here:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/rent_supplement.html

Doing some simple maths .. to include stuff like these folks paying for rent, bus, childcare etc... it almost looks like they are getting close to welfare being a better option

Thats my point too. The majority of posters criticising these workers are probably on much higher wages and wouldn't do the jobs these workers do. Some of the anti Public Sector crowd won't be please until the Public Sector have to pay for the "privilege" of working.

Head The Wall

There's two problems here, high welfare and high wages. They both need to be tackled

beeftotheheels

tayto lover wrote: »

Thats my point too. The majority of posters criticising these workers are probably on much higher wages and wouldn't do the jobs these workers do. Some of the anti Public Sector crowd won't be please until the Public Sector have to pay for the "privilege" of working.

I think this is kind of missing the point. I acknowledge that these are amongst the lowest paid public sector employees, I think that they should be last in line for further cuts.

But their vote is a militant two fingers to the country. They're saying that they cannot be touched, regardless of the realities and this gives unions a bad name.

They could make the point that their salaries are low, and we should acknowledge that. They should not threaten strike action against any reforms, even those which don't impact on their pay, which is what they have done.

This risks us having sympathy for their real point which is that they should be last in line for cuts, by making it easier for them to be painted as "away with the fairies".

Einhard

tayto lover wrote: »

We don't know the full story with regards to the C.P.S.U. These are the lowest paid members of the Public Sector, cleaners etc. They also suffered many cuts and the U.S.C. applies to them also. Many are on the breadline and not too far above dole rates. I know one of them and his wages are about 20/30 euro above what he would get for lying at home in bed and claiming the dole but he has a work ethic and chooses to work, pay taxes, health insurance etc.
Its very easy for someone to criticise these workers for wanting to defend their living standard but please read up on it first before you comment as they are obviously not considering this action just to be awkward !!

In my post though, I say I'd support them to an extent if they if their campaign was just about preserving living standards and wages. But it's not. They (the delegates anyway) have said they are not going to co-operate with any further reforms, regardless of whether they impact on their wages. That's just outrageous in my opinion. There's also no logic to it. What will it achieve? It won't see the cuts reversed, it won't see conditions bumped back up to Celtic Tiger levels. It achieves nothing, and seems to me to be all about militancy for the sake of it- which really boils down to a huge "fu*k you" to the rest of the country.

acer1000

I don't know much about the doings of the CPSU.

I understand from here that many of these people aren't much above welfare rates of pay?

How are they to interpret issues when their senior civil servants could orchestrate a pay cut for everybody else but none to their own excessive pay?

What must they think when the look at Blair Horan and consider what he's probably getting paid, in addition to the extra 'pay' he probably gets from having his snout in other troughs?

What must they think when they consider the excessive pay and expenses of politicians who make decisions on their behalf.

The point being that there is a cronyist golden circle in Ireland of politicians, media 'stars'. professionals, bankers, union leaders, bankers, etc,who feel that everybody else should pay for the mess that they created. It's time they were told that it's them who must pay.

The issue should be moved to how can a lower paid worker, whether public or private get better value for what he/she is paid.

Some people(Blair Horan?) just want to generate false issues as a deflection, out of self interest.

tayto lover

Einhard wrote: »

In my post though, I say I'd support them to an extent if they if their campaign was just about preserving living standards and wages. But it's not. They (the delegates anyway) have said they are not going to co-operate with any further reforms, regardless of whether they impact on their wages. That's just outrageous in my opinion. There's also no logic to it. What will it achieve? It won't see the cuts reversed, it won't see conditions bumped back up to Celtic Tiger levels. It achieves nothing, and seems to me to be all about militancy for the sake of it- which really boils down to a huge "fu*k you" to the rest of the country.

I don't think it boils down to militancy as such. I believe that their wages are so poor now that they feel they might be just as well off on the dole. Any action they take would be a dying kick and a "get-back" at the Govt. Threats to sack them would be laughed at as the money is so poor anyway according to my friend but there would be much disruption if they did go out as H & S issues would then come into it. Who would clean toilets, empty rubbish, clean out drains etc in his job?

beeftotheheels

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't think it boils down to militancy as such. I believe that their wages are so poor now that they feel they might be just as well off on the dole. Any action they take would be a dying kick and a "get-back" at the Govt. Threats to sack them would be laughed at as the money is so poor anyway according to my friend but there would be much disruption if they did go out as H & S issues would then come into it. Who would clean toilets, empty rubbish, clean out drains etc in his job?

I think that this kind of ignores the fact that social welfare will face similar cuts to public sector wages. If the Union's issue was additional cuts to take home pay, then people could sympathize based on the relative levels of their wages to social welfare.

But they phrased the proposal as an objection to all reforms, not just wage reforms, and they should understand how this will be viewed by the population at large.

It will be viewed as them wanting to be above the cuts which are necessary (fair enough given their wages), and the reforms which are necessary.

It will increase pressure on the government to harden their negotiating position with all unions.

You referred to it as a "dying kick, and a get-back to the government", I fear that it may well be a dying kick. While never having been a member of one in my life, I happen to think that Unions, in moderation, are a good thing.

Unions acting like this make me wonder if we would be better off of banning all unions.

gigino

tayto lover wrote: »

Some of the anti Public Sector crowd won't be please until the Public Sector have to pay for the "privilege" of working.

Nobody is anti public sector. The government have not run out of compassion , it has run out of money it can borrow.
Average public sector wages in this country are still 47k, in the UK ( inc N. Ireland ) they are half that. Time for some realism.

Gumbo

gigino wrote: »

Nobody is anti public sector. The government have not run out of compassion , it has run out of money it can borrow.
Average public sector wages in this country are still 47k, in the UK ( inc N. Ireland ) they are half that. Time for some realism.

1. Control + C
2. Control + V

why constantly copy and paste other peoples quotes?

gigino

I typed the above myself, because its true. People like you cannot seem to grasp the reality. If the government was not bust, it would be different.

Gumbo

gigino wrote: »

I typed the above myself

no you didnt, you copy and paste it constantly from Mr. Mc Carthys Report
Its actually lost its meaning now.

what does your derogatory comment "People Like You" mean? Keyboard warrior comes to mind :rolleyes:

tayto lover

gigino wrote: »

Nobody is anti public sector. The government have not run out of compassion , it has run out of money it can borrow.
Average public sector wages in this country are still 47k, in the UK ( inc N. Ireland ) they are half that. Time for some realism.

The pay in N. Ireland reflects the cost of education, houses, child care, food etc and that is much cheaper up there. Have you seen the cost of cars there compared with here. We are being ripped off and our wages need to be higher to live here. Time for some realism is right.

I know we have no money but to expect people to work for nothing while the fat cats have got away with "murder" is not being realistic.

beeftotheheels

tayto lover wrote: »

I know we have no money but to expect people to work for nothing while the fat cats have got away with "murder" is not being realistic.

Where are these fat cats?

If your issue is that the likes of Sean FitzP have not yet been indicted. Fair enough.

If your issue is that property developers like Johnny Ronan still seem to lead lavish lifestyles, fair enough.

If you think that creating an additional income tax on people earning over €100k or whatever could get us out of this mess without touching public sector salaries/ welfare etc then you are dreaming.

1. There are not enough high earners in Ireland to make up the shortfall, and

2. Once you start taxing people at rates much above 50% they tend to vote with their feet & emigrate as the UK has just witnessed and is bringing its top tax rate back down. A sad fact is that emigration is a much easier option for someone earning €200k than it is for someone earning €20k.

Those who have the most should pay the most, but within reason.

We are all going to have to take some pain here, there is no easy solution. Any group trying to exempt themselves from any of the pain are living in a fantasy land.

Gumbo

beeftotheheels wrote: »

without touching public sector salaries/ welfare etc then you are dreaming.

i thought PS salaries were cut.....twice now
Do people genuinely forget these things or do they choose to ignore them

beeftotheheels

kceire wrote: »

i thought PS salaries were cut.....twice now
Do people genuinely forget these things or do they choose to ignore them

We don't forget them, we're just not naive enough to this that we're out of this mess yet.

We have an additional budgetary adjustment to make. The €15bn adjustment agreed with the IMF (which may not be enough as things stand) was front loaded with €6bn in year one, leaving €9bn more to come, or 1.5 times as many cuts and tax raises as we have already seen.

This means there are more cuts to be made, and more taxes to be raised and they will have to be shared across the board. I don't want to see them done harshly, I want the terms of the budgetary adjustments lengthened as I think that the first €6bn adjustment was too harsh and stiffled growth.

Alas, the expected result from the Finnish election may make it more difficult for us to get revised terms for the EU.

tayto lover

beeftotheheels wrote: »

We don't forget them, we're just not naive enough to this that we're out of this mess yet.

We have an additional budgetary adjustment to make. The €15bn adjustment agreed with the IMF (which may not be enough as things stand) was front loaded with €6bn in year one, leaving €9bn more to come, or 1.5 times as many cuts and tax raises as we have already seen.

This means there are more cuts to be made, and more taxes to be raised and they will have to be shared across the board. I don't want to see them done harshly, I want the terms of the budgetary adjustments lengthened as I think that the first €6bn adjustment was too harsh and stiffled growth.

Alas, the expected result from the Finnish election may make it more difficult for us to get revised terms for the EU.

But they are not being shared across the board are they ? Whether it makes any sense or dent in our deficit or not the fat cats are not being cut and they have to be if only for the purpose of letting ordinary workers know that the system is fair and equal. At the moment its not.
AND not one banker in court yet never mind jail but plenty of ordinary citizens, both Private and Public Sector, are losing their homes as a result of not being able to pay their mortgages, and some of you want these people cut even more. Makes me sick.

Welease

tayto lover wrote: »

But they are not being shared across the board are they ? Whether it makes any sense or dent in our deficit or not the fat cats are not being cut and they have to be if only for the purpose of letting ordinary workers know that the system is fair and equal. At the moment its not.
AND not one banker in court yet never mind jail but plenty of ordinary citizens, both Private and Public Sector, are losing their homes as a result of not being able to pay their mortgages, and some of you want these people cut even more. Makes me sick.

You seem to be confusing the issues...

Bankers etc being taken to court is a legal issue which has no bearing on our ability to balance the budget.. If every banker in the country was rounded up today and shipped off to Mountjoy, there would still be a collossal defecit which needs to be addressed by further cuts in spending.

beeftotheheels

tayto lover wrote: »

But they are not being shared across the board are they ? Whether it makes any sense or dent in our deficit or not the fat cats are not being cut and they have to be if only for the purpose of letting ordinary workers know that the system is fair and equal. At the moment its not.
AND not one banker in court yet never mind jail but plenty of ordinary citizens, both Private and Public Sector, are losing their homes as a result of not being able to pay their mortgages, and some of you want these people cut even more. Makes me sick.

I agree with you that I want to see indictments. I think something needs to be done about foreclosures.

In terms of higher income individuals they are being cut. By additional taxation and loss of reliefs through to private sector salary cuts. And they should be cut more.

I agree entirely with the spirit that there should be leadership by example, so top salaries in the public sector should come down a lot more than those of the rank and file.

All of this is about equity and fairness and justice and I agree.

I just think that there is a risk that people might get the impression that it was possible to bridge the deficit without inflicting more pain on the rank and file, when you have politicians talking about "taxing fat cats" etc, when really their are talking about the same justice based arguments that you are making.

An additional tax on the well off is symbolically powerful, of course it is. A reduction in the salaries of ministers and TDs is similarly symbolically necessary for all of us.

But the harsh reality is that there are a lot more "average" families than there are "rich" families. This means that while I agree some tax rises should be targeted specifically at the rich families, it is the tax rises aimed at the average families (which will also hit the rich families) which will generate more revenue and close the gap more.

There is pain here for all of us, and no easy way out of it. I don't want to see workers on low paid salaries taking a disproportionate amount of the pain, they should take a proportionately lower amount of the pain. I just don't see how they can be exempt from taking any more pain.

tayto lover

beeftotheheels wrote: »

I agree with you that I want to see indictments. I think something needs to be done about foreclosures.

In terms of higher income individuals they are being cut. By additional taxation and loss of reliefs through to private sector salary cuts. And they should be cut more.

I agree entirely with the spirit that there should be leadership by example, so top salaries in the public sector should come down a lot more than those of the rank and file.

All of this is about equity and fairness and justice and I agree.

I just think that there is a risk that people might get the impression that it was possible to bridge the deficit without inflicting more pain on the rank and file, when you have politicians talking about "taxing fat cats" etc, when really their are talking about the same justice based arguments that you are making.

An additional tax on the well off is symbolically powerful, of course it is. A reduction in the salaries of ministers and TDs is similarly symbolically necessary for all of us.

But the harsh reality is that there are a lot more "average" families than there are "rich" families. This means that while I agree some tax rises should be targeted specifically at the rich families, it is the tax rises aimed at the average families (which will also hit the rich families) which will generate more revenue and close the gap more.

There is pain here for all of us, and no easy way out of it. I don't want to see workers on low paid salaries taking a disproportionate amount of the pain, they should take a proportionately lower amount of the pain. I just don't see how they can be exempt from taking any more pain.

Is there a section of super-rich people living in Ireland who do pay any tax at all? Is it true that 5% of the population own 80% of the wealth and pay no tax? Can anyone confirm this ?

beeftotheheels

tayto lover wrote: »

Is there a section of super-rich people living in Ireland who do pay any tax at all? Is it true that 5% of the population own 80% of the wealth and pay no tax? Can anyone confirm this ?

I don't know, certainly 5% do not own 80% of the wealth but there are people who pay very little tax.

I can tell you what was widely reported regarding Denis O'Brien. Before he sold his ESAT shares he moved his tax residence to Portugal so that when he sold those shares they would be tax free.

He subsequently moved his tax residence to Malta when Portugal changed their rules, and I expect he pays little or no tax in Malta. All the while maintaining a family and home in Dublin. And while we may view that as morally wrong, because of international agreements Ireland signed up to we cannot tax those gains.

But as you may recall Michael O'Leary made a dig at him when Ryanair introduced the Malta route, with a €0 fare plus tax with the poster featuring a picture of Denis and the tag line "All you pay are taxes". As part of the same news cycle, and no doubt intended to keep the story running and resultant press coverage, Mr O'Leary got a blown up copy of his own cheque to Revenue and posed with it outside Dublin castle. He paid very significant taxes to Revenue, it looked like he was paying income tax at the top marginal rate, although he is not worth as much as Denis.

There really aren't that many Irish people worth billions, and post bubble there aren't even that many worth 10s of millions. Lots of our one time rich, even those who hadn't made their money on property, speculated and lost huge amounts on property or related issues (e.g. Sean Quinn on Anglo).

There is no magic huge pot of wealth for us to tax here. There is a pot, but it is nowhere near as big as people might believe. And who knows, if we increased Michael O'Learys top rate from just under 50% to 70% or 80% he might decide to board one of his planes and leave too. We're better off keeping him here and getting almost half of what he earns - a bird in the hand and all...

Head The Wall

tayto lover wrote: »

The pay in N. Ireland reflects the cost of education, houses, child care, food etc and that is much cheaper up there. Have you seen the cost of cars there compared with here. We are being ripped off and our wages need to be higher to live here. Time for some realism is right.

I know we have no money but to expect people to work for nothing while the fat cats have got away with "murder" is not being realistic.

We are being ripped off here by our govt and it is still not even coming close to match our expenditure

Gumbo

Head The Wall wrote: »

We are being ripped off here by our govt and it is still not even coming close to match our expenditure

dont forget the Private Sector too...clothes, food, services etc

tayto lover

kceire wrote: »

dont forget the Private Sector too...clothes, food, services etc

With the reductions in numbers in the Private and Public Sectors, reductions in wages also there will be less spending money and more social welfare to pay, pensions etc. We are soon coming to the stage when we will have to default anyway so it won't matter where you work as theres no escaping. You cannot cut your way out of this recession and we can't pay the I.M.F. or E.U. We won't even be able to service the interest on the loans.

Head The Wall

tayto lover wrote: »

You cannot cut your way out of this recession

I may be wrong but is it not "you can't tax your way out of a recession"

tayto lover

Head The Wall wrote: »

I may be wrong but is it not "you can't tax your way out of a recession"

Don't think you can do either tbh.

gigino

tayto lover wrote: »

Don't think you can do either tbh.

but the fact remains this country is one of the most bankrupt in the world and yet has one of the highest paid public services in the world.... a public service which is costing he taxpayer double now what it did ten years ago....so more cuts are inevitable.

tayto lover

gigino wrote: »

but the fact remains this country is one of the most bankrupt in the world and yet has one of the highest paid public services in the world.... a public service which is costing he taxpayer double now what it did ten years ago....so more cuts are inevitable.

They will cut the numbers rather than the wages and also not replace people who retire as per the Croke Park agreement. Even today Brendan Howlin said that he didn't think there would be anymore pay cuts. There are too many administrators in some parts of it and these should be the first to go but as per usual Frontline people will probably suffer more.
Public Servants are also taxpayers.

gigino

Brendan Howlin + co. are begging at the table for money from abroad - approximately 20,000,000,000.00 of it per year - just to keep the lights on, and our public service and welfare rates among the highest in the world. The time will come when those lending the money will say no.
As regards taxpayers, the public service are not net contributers to the government coffers.

sarumite

tayto lover wrote: »

The pay in N. Ireland reflects the cost of education, houses, child care, food etc and that is much cheaper up there. Have you seen the cost of cars there compared with here. We are being ripped off and our wages need to be higher to live here. Time for some realism is right.

I know we have no money but to expect people to work for nothing while the fat cats have got away with "murder" is not being realistic.

I worked in the NHS from 2001-2006 in the south of England. The pay there was lower than here and did not reflect a lower cost of living, they were just plain lower. Either some south English PS workers were underpaid or some Irish PS workers were overpaid, but either way the cost of living in both contries was not reflected by their respective pay.

fliball123

tayto lover wrote: »

The pay in N. Ireland reflects the cost of education, houses, child care, food etc and that is much cheaper up there. Have you seen the cost of cars there compared with here. We are being ripped off and our wages need to be higher to live here. Time for some realism is right.

I know we have no money but to expect people to work for nothing while the fat cats have got away with "murder" is not being realistic.

True but how about reflecting the fact that this small isle is the most indebted in the world and hemeroging 20 odd billion a year in spend vs income ...

fliball123

kceire wrote: »

i thought PS salaries were cut.....twice now
Do people genuinely forget these things or do they choose to ignore them

No one of them were a contribution to a defined benefit as pointed out to you nearly a dozen times KCeire

fliball123

kceire wrote: »

dont forget the Private Sector too...clothes, food, services etc

Thing is for all of the above if the a person is ripped off the individual usually does not go back for seconds...ala if your phone bill is really really high ..you change provider..cant do that with the public sector unfortunately..So in this way the private sector looks after itself with competition. I stated in a differernt thread anything that can be privitised or competition introduced..ie competition for public transport etc should be done..This will drive prices for the citizens of Ireland lower...and as a knock effect when we are taxed more and when the ps and welfare have their cuts the money will probably buy the same as before

fliball123

tayto lover wrote: »

Don't think you can do either tbh.

You also cannot spend your way out of bankrupcy

dan_d

Do the CPSU realise that it doesn't matter what they want to do? It's going to be a huge pain in the ass if they strike, but last I checked the IMF/EU don't care.

There's been protests in Greece, and (prior to the IMF) Portugal...and I haven't heard that it's changed any decisions.

We aren't supplying the union's members with money anymore. The EU are. So to be quite honest, they're going to have to put up and shut up. The unions need to realise they're losing (and in some cases) have lost, the power they had over the last Gov. Votes such as this simply paint them in an awful light and will have little to no effect on those who actually hold the purse strings.

Gumbo

fliball123 wrote: »

No one of them were a contribution to a defined benefit as pointed out to you nearly a dozen times KCeire

So you agree it was 2 pay cuts, as posted on this thread alone about a dozen times FLIBALL.

fliball123

kceire wrote: »

So you agree it was 2 pay cuts, as posted on this thread alone about a dozen times FLIBALL.

No you had one cut of 7% a real pay cut and a 7% contribution to a defined benefit of which this defined benefit is at a much higher calibre than anything that can be got by anyone in the private sector..Sure its not even 7% as you tax relief on it...

Silvio.Dante

While I'm on €392 a week I may as well strike. I'm one of the working poor and a proud CPSU member.

I was one of the delegates in Athlone over the weekend and was delighted to see such resolute opposition to both the CPA, Blair Horan's campaign to get us in via the backdoor and willingness to take immediate Ind Action if they attempt to reduce our pay or attack our remaining T&C's of employment...

sarumite

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

While I'm on €392 a week I may as well strike. I'm one of the working poor and a proud CPSU member.

I was one of the delegates in Athlone over the weekend and was delighted to see such resolute opposition to both the CPA, Blair Horan's campaign to get us in via the backdoor and willingness to take immediate Ind Action if they attempt to reduce our pay or attack our remaining T&C's of employment...

Would the best way to ensure no further pay cuts to ensure that the CPA is implemented in full? From my perspective by not working towards getting all the savings in place, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

fliball123

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

While I'm on €392 a week I may as well strike. I'm one of the working poor and a proud CPSU member.

I was one of the delegates in Athlone over the weekend and was delighted to see such resolute opposition to both the CPA, Blair Horan's campaign to get us in via the backdoor and willingness to take immediate Ind Action if they attempt to reduce our pay or attack our remaining T&C's of employment...

Best of luck with that..just so you know you will have very little support of the general public......The Public sector need to come into the real world of what Ireland is in 2011..I know that their are very few sectors left in the private sector who have not cut jobs and pay ...

why should the public sector wage be protected when all other areas of spend is coming down..

Go ahead strike I hope you have some savings as I think you may be on the picket for a while or until you realise that the gov have little choice but to do this as its the IMF/EU dictating things

Gumbo

sarumite wrote: »

Would the best way to ensure no further pay cuts to ensure that the CPA is implemented in full? From my perspective by not working towards getting all the savings in place, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

Yes it would and is what 99% of PS staff want but then you get posters on here, whether there students, bored housewives or self employed or indeed failed property developers, the savings from the CPA won't be enough and they will be back on boards the next day screaming for more pay cuts.

This forum has gone from a decent discussion forum to a rehearsed school play with the same characters spouting the same posts over each and every thread.

fliball123

kceire wrote: »

Yes it would and is what 99% of PS staff want but then you get posters on here, whether there students, bored housewives or self employed or indeed failed property developers, the savings from the CPA won't be enough and they will be back on boards the next day screaming for more pay cuts.

This forum has gone from a decent discussion forum to a rehearsed school play with the same characters spouting the same posts over each and every thread.

kceire to date 1.3 billion is the figure touted as being saved under the cpa...I am none of the above just a bog standard private sector worker...looking at a fairer way to implement both taxes and cuts...Its unfair that the ps have their wage protected when all else is being cut...1.3 when 20billion a year is being over spent....Only a blind man can see that this is not enough...It needs to be at least 2/3 times this in my opinion for the CPA to be kept in its current form...Thats how they should have done it.

They should have looked at how much is spent on the ps wage and say right save 5 billion and what ever isnt saved is coming out of your wages..We have tried the carrot as a way of trying to get the ps into shape with things such as benchmarking, extra privalage days, gold plated pensions and other perks which clearly isnt working..So its time for the stick...As I said to a previous poster the gov simple have to say its the IMF/EU and it is...and look at where sriking got Greece - absolutely nowhere

sarumite

kceire wrote: »

This forum has gone from a decent discussion forum to a rehearsed school play with the same characters spouting the same posts over each and every thread.

Thats true, though its goes both ways. I can think of several occasions where there have been people who kneejerk defend the indefensible with regards the PS. Its hard to get a balanced objective approach because both sides of the debate become so entrenched in their point of view. I think back to some of my posts afterwards and think I could have rephrased that, though usually by then its too late.....though I read some posts from other people and I think the same as well.

fliball123

sarumite wrote: »

Thats true, though its goes both ways. I can think of several occasions where there have been people who kneejerk defend the indefensible with regards the PS. Its hard to get a balanced objective approach because both sides of the debate become so entrenched in their point of view. I think back to some of my posts afterwards and think I could have rephrased that, though usually by then its too late.....though I read some posts from other people and I think the same as well.

I think you hit the nail on the sarumite..I think that the ps will defend till the end and as I pointed out ages ago I would probably be doing the same if it was my wage...but it still doesnt get us out of the massive hole we are in and when people in the unions come out stating we will strike well of course there are going to over react..As they are basically trying to punish the already beleagured general public

sollar

The solution to our problems doesn't lie in the public sector. 1.3 billion is not going to save us. The net public service paybill is approx 12 to 13 billion. The gross figure is 16 billion.

Either debt forgiveness or as beggs says a 90 year loan is the only realistic thing now. People need to be out spending again and getting back into employment. Cutting 1.3 billion is not going to aid that one jot. The problem is far too big now.

21 billion going out in welfare too don't forget.