Michael Collins, would he have achieved the Republic?

CommuterIE

I think he would have... I also believe that he would have been better than De Valera in Irish politics and economics... Collins always looked to the future, whereas De Valera stagnated the state for decades!

What's your view?

Daegerty

I'll get back to you on that one. Picked up a few cheap 'leftovers' from Fukushima on eBay.jp the other day for d'oul DeLorean

looks like it needs a new timing belt too though. if it slips I could end up in the wrong century

Chris P. Bacon

CommuterIE wrote: »

What's your view?

Not much now,i have the curtains closed.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Although more progressive than Dev Collins was still a man of his time and was quite conservative.

Thomas828

He could have, but would the Irish Catholic Church have had the same stranglehold on society it had in our timeline?

strobe

I have to think yeah. There is a letter from Collins to someone else in the government where he writes telling them that he used his car to do a few personal things and asking if he should forward some money to pay for the fuel seeing as it wasn't government business. It's just a small thing but it gives a glimpse into how he thought.

CommuterIE

Thomas828 wrote: »

He could have, but would the Irish Catholic Church have had the same stranglehold on society it had in our timeline?

I doubt it, Collins was a liberal, Dev was a Conservative... Dev destroyed the country in his tenure

Saila

in before the ra

lmaopml

It's hard to know really. They were 'friends' too during very pivotal times that shaped today and our political grassroots. In fairness Collins was calling a bluff too, there was no more weaponry or support; or any kind of will from the people to continue bloodshed, and it was either time to 'call' it or 'not' -

I think, all told that the most was made by some pretty cute hoors of the times - I don't know if they could possibly have achieved more, they were the odd farmer, lawyer, somebody who had a bit of fire in their soul etc.

It could have been worse op? It was for others, but not for us...ce sera sera..

It's history now.

Humans eh!

Daegerty wrote: »

I'll get back to you on that one. Picked up a few cheap 'leftovers' from Fukushima on eBay.jp the other day for d'oul DeLorean

looks like it needs a new timing belt too though. if it slips I could end up in the wrong century

Brilliant!
Let us know how JFK would have got on in Vietnam while you are at it.

KeithAFC

Well i suppose the free state would have but the RA would fight on.../republican comment/

RMD

I'm not sure if he would have that quickly but he wouldn't have fúcked up the economy like De Valera did in the 30s or agree to the land annuities like the other leaders of CnG did, once the the statute came in anyway he would have gotten a Republic, it would only have been a matter of time.

Terry

I just voted yes because it was the first option.
In reality the same bunch of corrupt bastards would have ruined the place for the rest of us.

Until people learn that FF and FG are the same party, we're completely fúcked.
No, I'm not endorsing Labour or SF or whatever. I just ask that people vote for politicians on their merits, and not on the party they are affiliated with.

The civil war happened. Cork city is still a hole. Dublin, while being a hole too, is still the capital. Get the **** over it and stop voting for the same party that daddy tells you to vote for.

Christ. If people listened to me, I'd have this country back on its feet within a week.

basillarkin

CommuterIE wrote: »

I think he would have... I also believe that he would have been better than De Valera in Irish politics and economics... Collins always looked to the future, whereas De Valera stagnated the state for decades!

What's your view?

Short answer is no, we could go on all night, Carson and Craig were never going to give up the North without serious bloodshed.

chalkitdown

lmaopml wrote: »

It's hard to know really. They were 'friends' too during very pivotal times that shaped today and our political grassroots. In fairness Collins was calling a bluff too, there was no more weaponry or support; or any kind of will from the people to continue bloodshed, and it was either time to 'call' it or 'not' -

I think, all told that the most was made by some pretty cute hoors of the times - I don't know if they could possibly have achieved more, they were the odd farmer, lawyer, somebody who had a bit of fire in their soul etc.

It could have been worse op? It was for others, but not for us...ce sera sera..

It's history now.

There was will, and Collins was still supplying arms to the North.

bitter

No, because Collins was turned by the british as was Dev & Adams & McGuinness.

basillarkin

basillarkin wrote: »

Short answer is no, we could go on all night, Carson and Craig were never going to give up the North without serious bloodshed.

Im pissed

Killer Pigeon

Collins would have pushed to ally Ireland with the UK & USA during WW2. Although Ireland obviously didn't have the military capabilities to help defeat Nazi Germany, the British wanted to use Ireland's ports. Churchill hinted that he would offer to end partition and even an all-Ireland republic if Ireland joined the war effort.

If Collins had taken this root, the South would have faced many German bomber raids, possibly as bad as that the raids on Belfast City - the civilian population would have suffered. However, after the Allies win the war (assuming in this alternate reality that they do) Ireland would have been less isolated from the world than it was under DeValera after WW2 - I predict that Ireland would have recovered and be better economically during the 1950's than it was in our timeline. I don't think that those loyal to Britain in the North would have posed much of a threat as to cause a second civil war - in fact I think that the alternate WW2 with the South involved would have only united all the people of the island and would have worn down old divides.

So, to put it in short, if Michael Collins had survived;

• More infrastural development during the 1920's and 1930's
• Assuming Collins had maintained some influence in government by 1939 the Free State would have gone to war on the side of the Allies during WW2,
• More civilian causalities during this period,
• An Irish Republic encompassing the entire island of Ireland around the same time as Indian independence,
• Less isolationist than DeValera's Ireland after WW2 - more foreign investment and greater infrastrasture.
• A smaller or possibly non-existent Fianna Fáil party.
• Overall, a much better Ireland under Michael Collins' rule.

bitter

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Collins would have pushed to ally Ireland with the UK & USA during WW2. Although Ireland obviously didn't have the military capabilities to help defeat Nazi Germany, the British wanted to use Ireland's ports. Churchill hinted that he would offer to end partition and even an all-Ireland republic if Ireland joined the war effort.

If Collins had taken this root, the South would have faced many German bomber raids, possibly as bad as that the raids on Belfast City - the civilian population would have suffered. However, after the Allies win the war (assuming in this alternate reality that they do) Ireland would have been less isolated from the world than it was under DeValera after WW2 - I predict that Ireland would have recovered and be better economically during the 1950's than it was in our timeline. I don't think that those loyal to Britain in the North would have posed much of a threat as to cause a second civil war - in fact I think that the alternate WW2 with the South involved would have only united all the people of the island even further.

So, to put it in short, if Michael Collins had survived;

• More infrastural development during the 1920's and 1930's
• Assuming Collins had maintained some influence in government by 1939 the Free State would have gone to war on the side of the Allies during WW2,
• More civilian causalities during this period,
• An Irish Republic encompassing the entire island of Ireland around the same time as Indian independence,
• Less isolationist than DeValera's Ireland after WW2 - more foreign investment and greater infrastrasture.
• A smaller or possibly non-existent Fianna Fáil party.
• Overall, a much better Ireland under Michael Collins' rule.

but we don't know that do we:rolleyes:

lmaopml

chalkitdown wrote: »

There was will, and Collins was still supplying arms to the North.

Yeah, maybe in an alternate reality it would have been entirely different, a few more deaths, and bloodshed from people that were worn out and didn't even know 'who' to identify with. But this 'is' the reality, and all of those guys deserve a 'nod'? no?

I don't really get people that despise our history and some pretty cool key players in it..agree with their sentiment or no, they were fooking heroes in my eyes..lol..

They were 'key players', I'm really happy to be able to say we won a free state, and never ever invaded another territory, just wanted our own - but still had a 'vision' to recognise diplomacy and use it for all it's worth in crazy times..whether it was 'right' or 'wrong' doesn't come into it really - only what was achieved and what we were left with to build on..

Although with this current decade things are pretty ****, econcomy wise, but then swings and roundabouts are par for the course I guess Some brass neck is required..

chalkitdown

lmaopml wrote: »

Yeah, maybe in an alternate reality it would have been entirely different, a few more deaths, and bloodshed from people that were worn out and didn't even know 'who' to identify with. But this 'is' the reality, and all of those guys deserve a 'nod'? no?

I don't really get people that despise our history and some pretty cool key players in it..agree with their sentiment or no, they were fooking heroes in my eyes..lol..

They were 'key players', I'm really happy to be able to say we won a free state, and never ever invaded another territory, just wanted our own - but still had a 'vision' to recognise diplomacy and use it for all it's worth in crazy times..whether it was 'right' or 'wrong' doesn't come into it really - only what was achieved and what we were left with to build on..

Although with this current decade things are pretty ****, econcomy wise, but then swings and roundabouts are par for the course I guess Some brass neck is required..

Ya, the main 'key player' that invented the 'I won't swear allegiance to the King' civil war starting bastard?

Terry

bitter wrote: »

but we don't know that do we:rolleyes:

No, we do know that.
Killer Pigeon is right. The South would have won if DeValera had not ordered the asassination of Collins.

We would have a 32 county state, and the unionists would not have said a single thing about it.
The British would not have said a thing about it. They would have let the whole thing go ahead. After all, it was Michael Collins in charge.
Then we would have had the great FG party in charge, and they wouldn't have screwed the entire country over.

I'm running out of sarcasm here.

KeithAFC

An Irish Republic encompassing the entire island of Ireland around the same time as Indian independence,

I don't think so.

The loyalists don't and never do want it.

OutlawPete

Terry wrote: »

I just voted yes because it was the first option.

Terry, any chance of a lend of five grand. Yes? No?



I think he would have invaded NI (plenty of smarter men than me believe so, so that's good enough for me) and I believe he/we would have prevailed with time.

chalkitdown

KeithAFC wrote: »

I don't think so.

The loyalists don't and never do want it.

I think given the right incentives they would enjoy having a say in this political morass and I would welcome it.

lmaopml

chalkitdown wrote: »

Ya, the main 'key player' that invented the 'I won't swear allegiance to the King' civil war starting bastard?

Elaborate?

NufcNavan

The great always die young, because they do not live long enough to make mistakes. FACT.

Celly Smunt

OutlawPete wrote: »

Terry, any chance of a lend of five grand. Yes? No?



I think he would have invaded NI (plenty of smarter men than me believe so, so that's good enough for me) and I believe he/we would have prevailed with time.

for any irish outfit to step foot on NI would be suicide for the whole island.

chalkitdown

lmaopml wrote: »

Elaborate?

Dev created the conditions for the civil war by stressing the oath of allegiance, Collins was prepared to use and ignore it for the better good.

KeithAFC

OutlawPete wrote: »

Terry, any chance of a lend of five grand. Yes? No?



I think he would have invaded NI (plenty of smarter men than me believe so, so that's good enough for me) and I believe he/we would have prevailed with time.

400 years and yet no one has driven the loyalist people of Ulster out. And you think Colins would have defeated thousands upon thousands of Ulster Volunteers?

Celly Smunt

KeithAFC wrote: »

400 years and yet no one has driven the loyalist people of Ulster out. And you think Colins would have defeated thousands upon thousands of Ulster Volunteers?

the volunteers are nothing when you think about the strength of the B.A and marines,not to mention the R.A.F.

laughter189

MC was a great man , but he did'nt have enough support .

No - he alone could not have united Ireland

Xivilai

He would have defeated them all with some slings and spuds with plenty of spuds to spare :pac:

Meh, i'd still prefer him to the jerk who handed over the country to the Catholic Church.

KeithAFC

pmcmahon wrote: »

the volunteers are nothing when you think about the strength of the B.A and marines,not to mention the R.A.F.

The British government know better than that. In 69, it was close to kicking off between the loyalist people and British Army. Amazing how it turned out in the end.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

I have no idea if he would have or not, I dont know if he would have invaded the north. I find it hard to think that he would seeing as he accepted the treaty considering the laternatives, the laternatives would have been a hell of a lot worse upon invasion of the north.

Even if it did happen and the south was victorious, you'd have to wonder would that be such a good thing because I assum relations with our closest neighbour, which stands between us and the rest of europe yada yada yada, would be terrible for a long time to say the least.
Can you imagine driving all these unionists "home", whereby they rightfully consider the north their home as they were born there as were there fathers, fathers fathers etc.
It could have amounted to an expulsion of a people, or at least appeared like that, which would be a huge black mark on any countries history.

anyway, this is all just speculation. They should make a film about Michael Collins

chalkitdown

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmcmahon View Post
the volunteers are nothing when you think about the strength of the B.A and marines,not to mention the R.A.F.
The British government know better than that. In 69, it was close to kicking off between the loyalist people and British Army. Amazing how it turned out in the end.


It did kick off, it's just that the newspaper owning unionists controlled public opinion. They were as present in Dublin as Belfast.
The lie that republicans started the thing off in '69 is still taken as truth today.

lmaopml

...

KeithAFC

chalkitdown wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmcmahon View Post
the volunteers are nothing when you think about the strength of the B.A and marines,not to mention the R.A.F.
The British government know better than that. In 69, it was close to kicking off between the loyalist people and British Army. Amazing how it turned out in the end.


It did kick off, it's just that the newspaper owning unionists controlled public opinion. They were as present in Dublin as Belfast.
The lie that republicans started the thing off in '69 is still taken as truth today.

When i say kick off, i mean, really kick off if you know what i mean.

chalkitdown

KeithAFC wrote: »

When i say kick off, i mean, really kick off if you know what i mean.

Indeed, My mother was in the Royal Vic at that time and related the change that happened. Many of the moderates were fooled into extremism.

Terry

OutlawPete wrote: »

Terry, any chance of a lend of five grand. Yes? No?



I think he would have invaded NI (plenty of smarter men than me believe so, so that's good enough for me) and I believe he/we would have prevailed with time.

Yes. I'll give it to you in the form of thumbs up.

pmcmahon wrote: »

for any irish outfit to step foot on NI would be suicide for the whole island.

Indeed.
My old man was stationed on the border, and was ready to go.
The entire troop knew that Gerry Adams was a dick back then.

Berns

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Churchill hinted that he would offer to end partition and even an all-Ireland republic if Ireland joined the war effort.

Teacher told us that happened in politics & I was shocked that they didnt take that offer :eek: Can't remeber if I asked why not or got it explained Think was sumfin about wanting to remain a neutral state, but then loads went anyway :rolleyes:

wonderfulname

You ask two separate questions, one, would he have made a better Ireland, two, a united Ireland.

I think its impossible to predict what effect slight differences in decision made then would have on us today, I doubt we would be in much better of a situation, even much different a one given how many of the defining moments in our history rely on what happened outside our little island. As for a united Ireland, people tend to forget that Northern Ireland remained a part of the UK as whilst the island as a whole had a huge nationalist majority the 6 counties of the north were unionist. Indeed initially Northern Ireland was an autonomous part of the Irish Free State, their parliament chose to opt out of this arrangement as soon as was possible. I don't see how Collins could change that.

Somebody mentioned Churchill offering de Valera the north in return for his joining the allies, de Valera refused as he didn't believe Churchill would follow through or even be able to, and rightly so I would imagine. I don't think this can be attributed to his principles, I doubt Collins would do different.

Riddle101

I voted yes

After reading Collin's biography I could imagine Collins been a lot better then Develera. He always thought about the future and was far ahead of his time then anyone at that time. Also it took Develera many years before he entered the daíl as Taosiseach where as Collins was already Taoiseach during the Civil War. Who knows, maybe those years might have been significant for Collins if he survived. Of course that's my biased account because he's my hero but I do believe Collins would have been a lot better then Dev was, he was much more diplomatic then Dev.

Capt'n Midnight

Collins would not have invaded the north. He probably would have tired to make it economically unviable so the UK would be actually be happy to leave because the drain on their finances.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I don't think he would have invaded the north, though maybe he would have armed the IRA and the troubles would have happened a few decades earlier.