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Teachers Role Profile and Pay

  • 16-04-2011 5:04pm
    #1
    karlitob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,594 ✭✭✭


    Hi all,

    I have a few questions about teaching. Hopefully, I can ask and have them answered here. If its not the right forum - where should I post. I'm not a teacher. The public at large have differing views of teachers - lots of hols, huge pay, job security etc and also temporary teachers with little money and little support with huge numbers of children to teach.

    So,

    Permanent Primary School Teachers

    Pay
    - what is the pay scale?
    - what are the superannuation payments? Pension Contribution, Spouse and Child Contribution?
    Holidays
    - how much annual leave do you get?
    - do you really get paid during the summer holidays while the children are on holidays (and all other holidays)
    - if so, are you expected to come in, prepare classes, or what do you do on the time off?
    - why does my little sister (5Class) have a day off after a mid-term for teacher training - especially as she's had 4 months summer holidays?
    Conditions
    - how many children do you teach. Ideal and actual
    - how many hours a day do you work?
    - do you look after children on lunch break
    Qualifications
    - I know that its a tough few years in college. Mary I, Sion Hill and ...I forget. There's online course too? Hibernia?
    Other
    - how many primary school teachers are there?

    Temporary Primary School Teachers
    - how do you differ from above

    Permanent Secondary School Teachers
    Pay
    - what is the pay scale?
    - how do you determine pay. Is it by subjects taught or hours taught?
    - what are the superannuation payments? Pension Contribution, Spouse and Child Contribution?
    Holidays
    - how much annual leave do you get?
    - do you really get paid during the summer holidays while the children are on holidays (and all other holidays)
    - if so, are you expected to come in, prepare classes, or what do you do on the time off?
    - why does my little brother (2Year) have a day off after a mid-term for teacher training - especially as she's had 4 months summer holidays?
    Conditions
    - how many children do you teach. Ideal and actual
    - how many hours a day do you work?
    - do you look after children on lunch break
    Qualifications
    - Do you just do a HDip and can teach whatever subjects you took in college to LC and whatever you honoured in LC to JC. If you did maths as part of your engineering in college, did the HDip and then went on to teach Maths in LC. If you got an A in Hons Maths in LC you could teach Maths in JC
    Other
    - how many secondary school teachers are there?

    Temporary Secondary School Teachers
    - how do you differ?

    Thank you. Looking forward to getting answers and for this not to descend into name calling, abuse and the dreaded public-private debate.
    Tagged:


Comments

  • #2
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,514 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    salary scale in sticky on this board
    Permanent Primary School Teachers

    Holidays
    - how much annual leave do you get?     1 week at October 2 weeks at Christmas, one in spring at midterm, July and August

    - do you really get paid during the summer holidays while the children are on holidays (and all other holidays)Yes, if you are permanent, the DES has said there are to be no permanent jobs until further notice.New entrants into teaching, as well as taking our current pay cuts will also be starting at 10% lower salary.1,400 teachers will be losing their jobs this summer, they will all have to be redeployed before any other teachers can get temporary jobs.


    - if so, are you expected to come in, prepare classes, or what do you do on the time off?
    Most teachers do an inservice course for at least a week in the summer(Paid for by yourself). As part of Croke park deal we have to do an extra hour a week so we will be using these to come back early during the summer hols. Each teacher has to plan and prepare their rooms ,do yearly schemes according to school subject policies and to liase with special education re children in their classes, differentiate work for those children. (Most teachers would come in early anyway to organise for the coming year.) Next school year Easter and spring mid-term will be shortened by 6 days in total to make up any exceptional closings,like snow days, no heat, burst pipes etc.


    - why does my little sister (5Class) have a day off after a mid-term for teacher training - especially as she's had 4 months summer holidays?
    4 months summer holidays?????Think you need to check that.


    Conditions
    - how many children do you teach. Ideal and actual
    ideal- as few as possible to give the children better attention. Currently averaging 30 per class.Within that number you can have children with little or no English, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, Down's syndrome, exceptional ability, Aspergers or on the autistic spectrum,diagnosed speech and language difficulties, emotional or behavioural difficulties, ODD, sensory impairements,mild general learning difficulties, etc. etc.

    many hours a day do you work?official hours 9.20 to 3.OO, then work like correcting copies, IEPs, weekly schemes, monthly accounts of work done,courses on various aspects of school life in the evenings (In this school year I have done workshops/seminars on IEPs,online courses on various aspects of exceptional ability,handwriting for children with motor skill difficulties,children on the autistic spectrum, attended three weekend conferences ...so far...)
    I will be taking a group of children on an overnight trip shortly, again, on my own time. Then we have things like football, camogie, hurling, quizzes,basketball training and matches, again, outside of school time. Concerts,St. Patrick's Day parades, sacraments,fundraisers like bag packing, school fete also take place outside of hours. None of the above bring "overtime".



    Supervision at lunch break Yes, in our school you do half of big break (leaving you 15 mins to eat) or all of small break. We also supervise in the mornings and then for 15 mins after school. We get paid for the lunchtime supervision but not morning or evening,

    Qualifications
    - I know that its a tough few years in college. Mary I, Sion Hill and ...I forget. There's online course too? Hibernia?
    Sion Hill does not do a primary teaching course.
    Hibernia is done partly online, partly face to face.It's a post grad so you need a degree to do it.

    - how many primary school teachers are there? Way too many unemployed and getting worse.No job security-if you CAN get a job.Officially about 30,000

    Temporary Primary School Teachers
    - how do you differ from above
    No job security, often no job. Summer holiday pay not given unless you work a full school year.


  • #3
    karlitob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,594 ✭✭✭karlitob


    Thanks for your reply. And moderator, I spotted your sticky on pay - thanks for doing that.

    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Permanent Primary School Teachers

    Holidays
    - how much annual leave do you get?     1 week at October 2 weeks at Christmas, one in spring at midterm, July and August

    20 days during term time and 2 months (approx 40 days ) in summer - full pay - 3 months in total - WOW
    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    - do you really get paid during the summer holidays while the children are on holidays (and all other holidays)Yes, if you are permanent, the DES has said there are to be no permanent jobs until further notice.New entrants into teaching, as well as taking our current pay cuts will also be starting at 10% lower salary.1,400 teachers will be losing their jobs this summer, they will all have to be redeployed before any other teachers can get temporary jobs.

    Full pay for 3 months annual leave. All new public sector are on 10% less, thats not specific to teachers.
    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    - if so, are you expected to come in, prepare classes, or what do you do on the time off?
    Most teachers do an inservice course for at least a week in the summer(Paid for by yourself). As part of Croke park deal we have to do an extra hour a week so we will be using these to come back early during the summer hols. Each teacher has to plan and prepare their rooms ,do yearly schemes according to school subject policies and to liase with special education re children in their classes, differentiate work for those children. (Most teachers would come in early anyway to organise for the coming year.) Next school year Easter and spring mid-term will be shortened by 6 days in total to make up any exceptional closings,like snow days, no heat, burst pipes etc.

    All CPD is paid for by those who benefit from it. I do about 50 hours per year, on weekends - not on my 3 month holidays, and pay for all of it. Is there an expectation among teachers that this should be paid for?

    Did you mean that the Easter and mid term holidays will be shortened to make up for snow days etc. Is that something you agree with or disagree with? It would be hard to challenge the fact that teachers have 3 months annual leave and yet not agree to cover a few lost days.
    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    - why does my little sister (5Class) have a day off after a mid-term for teacher training - especially as she's had 4 months summer holidays?
    4 months summer holidays?????Think you need to check that.

    Granted I'll have to check that but I think you're missing the point of my question. She has 'teacher training days' during her school time - how can teachers justify those with 3 months annual leave. Why do it on children's time rather than your own paid time.
    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Conditions
    - how many children do you teach. Ideal and actual
    ideal- as few as possible to give the children better attention. Currently averaging 30 per class.Within that number you can have children with little or no English, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, Down's syndrome, exceptional ability, Aspergers or on the autistic spectrum,diagnosed speech and language difficulties, emotional or behavioural difficulties, ODD, sensory impairements,mild general learning difficulties, etc. etc.

    Again, granted that teachers have these children but not every class has so many types of children surely.
    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    many hours a day do you work?official hours 9.20 to 3.OO, then work like correcting copies, IEPs, weekly schemes, monthly accounts of work done,courses on various aspects of school life in the evenings (In this school year I have done workshops/seminars on IEPs,online courses on various aspects of exceptional ability,handwriting for children with motor skill difficulties,children on the autistic spectrum, attended three weekend conferences ...so far...)
    I will be taking a group of children on an overnight trip shortly, again, on my own time. Then we have things like football, camogie, hurling, quizzes,basketball training and matches, again, outside of school time. Concerts,St. Patrick's Day parades, sacraments,fundraisers like bag packing, school fete also take place outside of hours. None of the above bring "overtime".


    Supervision at lunch break Yes, in our school you do half of big break (leaving you 15 mins to eat) or all of small break. We also supervise in the mornings and then for 15 mins after school. We get paid for the lunchtime supervision but not morning or evening,

    "Officially", teachers work 5 hours and 40 minutes per day. Employment law states that 15 min break for 4 1/2 hours work and 30 minutes if 6 or more hours worked. Teachers don't "officially" work long enough hours to be entitled to a half hour lunch break. The morning breaks are not really supervision then if you are being paid to work. And as you say, you get your 15 minutes to eat.

    I think its fair to say that we all do a huge amount of administrative work in our own time and outside of work hours. We all do our CPD in our own time. There are obviously people up and down the country who train teams in their own time also. Do teachers feel that all this should be paid for?
    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Qualifications
    - I know that its a tough few years in college. Mary I, Sion Hill and ...I forget. There's online course too? Hibernia?
    Sion Hill does not do a primary teaching course.
    Hibernia is done partly online, partly face to face.It's a post grad so you need a degree to do it.

    Its not that hard to get the degree though?
    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    - how many primary school teachers are there? Way too many unemployed and getting worse.No job security-if you CAN get a job.Officially about 30,000

    30,000 - wow - didn't realise there were so many. there are 40,000 nurses. They work 37.5 hours and get 23 annual leave days a year.



    So do you feel that teachers should continue (albeit with the exception of temporary teachers) to get so many holidays and work 5 hours 40 minutes when you are at work for the wages that you get? Do you think there is any scope for accepting that there is a lot of teachers and as you say a lot of different types of children and thinking - if we worked longer hours or indeed worked in the three months that we have of annual leave then we'd still get thejob done and perhaps even to a better standard?

    Sorry if it seems like an attack but to justify so much annual leave for the wages that you get is shocking/



    Thanks again for your post.


  • #4
    Trotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,362 ✭✭✭Trotter


    karlitob wrote: »
    Sorry if it seems like an attack but to justify so much annual leave for the wages that you get is shocking/

    Have you taught a class? It might be less shocking if you have.

    My wife thought I had an easy job, so I recommended she take part in the Junior Achievement scheme which gave her the chance to teach a class of 8 year olds for an hour every week for six weeks. She's an accountant.

    She's changed her mind on my job. Seemingly they wouldnt listen to her.

    I get 8 weeks Summer holidays. Not the 4 months 3 Months you mentioned. I spend a minimum of 1 of those 8 weeks preparing for a new class in September.

    I also get 15 mins lunch (lunch being a time where I can eat yet am still on call to deal with the children), and work usually from 8:30am to 4:30pm.

    I don't expect to get paid extra for the time I spend doing admin/planning in the evening. I do expect not to have to justify getting paid for it. Im not a charity. I work, I get paid.

    The holidays are a great part of the package thats on offer to us. (By us I mean me and you..) but I wouldnt recommend doing teaching for the holidays. Its a bad mistake. I worked in the private sector for years and realised I was making a fortune for someone I'd never meet, so I decided to do something worthwhile. I didnt see the abuse coming down the road from all the teacher haters.. mainly because I went into teaching during the Celtic Tiger and many of them told me I was a fool for giving up my well paid job.

    If only the facts were as much fun as the 4 month holiday, working half day myths.

    But hey.. Who am I to spoil the craic?


  • #5
    karlitob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,594 ✭✭✭karlitob


    Trotter wrote: »
    Have you taught a class? It might be less shocking if you have.

    My wife thought I had an easy job, so I recommended she take part in the Junior Achievement scheme which gave her the chance to teach a class of 8 year olds for an hour every week for six weeks. She's an accountant.

    She's changed her mind on my job. Seemingly they wouldnt listen to her.

    I get 8 weeks Summer holidays. Not the 4 months 3 Months you mentioned.

    I also get 15 mins lunch (lunch being a time where I can eat yet am still on call to deal with the children), and work usually from 8:30am to 4:30pm.

    If only the facts were as much fun as the 4 month holiday, working half day myths.

    But hey.. Dont let me spoil the craic.


    Oh great - we're into the 'you couldn't do my job' argument. Well if thats the case, you couldnt do my job either and therefore, I should get paid more than you have way more annual leave.

    I quoted you on your leave holidays. 2/52 at christmas. 1/52 a Easter and October and 2/12 in summer. Thats 3/12. I acknowledged my mistake on the 4 months.

    You said that you had 15 mins to eat your lunch. Not a 15 min lunch. I presume 45 - 60 mins. I said that you don't officially work enough time to qualify for a 30 minute lunch break as you do not officially (your words, your quote) work 6 hours per day. The fact that you come in from 8:30 to 4:30 is moot because as everyone who works will attest is that they come in early, leave late regardless of private/public sector. If I came into work early to get admin jobs done, I would not expect a 2 hour lunch break. You're paid for your lunch break. Should we pay everyone to eat. I acknowledge that you get paid to supervise and get 15 mins to get down your lunch, but as you say, you dont 'officially' work long enough to justify longer than a 15 min break.

    You say your wife is an accountant. I'm sure she's in work early, comes home late, pressure increases at end of quarter and doesn't have 3 months holidays a year. Does she earn the same or similar.


    I just can't see how you expect people to get onside with teachers if they are the hours/leave you receive.

    Can you give people a good reason why a permanent teacher, paid a years salary, should continue to have 3 months of leave (2 in the summer, 1 week at Oct and Easter and 2 weeks at xmas)?

    But hey...don't let me spoil the craic.


  • #6
    Trotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,362 ✭✭✭Trotter


    karlitob wrote: »
    Oh great - we're into the 'you couldn't do my job' argument. Well if thats the case, you couldnt do my job either and therefore, I should get paid more than you have way more annual leave.

    No I didnt mean that. I was saying the opposite in fact. You can/could do my job if you wish. I only said that after my wife tried it, she hated it. Maybe you'd love it. I do.
    karlitob wrote: »
    You said that you had 15 mins to eat your lunch. Not a 15 min lunch. I presume 45 - 60 mins.

    30 mins lunch in my school.
    karlitob wrote: »
    I said that you don't officially work enough time to qualify for a 30 minute lunch break as you do not officially (your words, your quote) work 6 hours per day. The fact that you come in from 8:30 to 4:30 is moot because as everyone who works will attest is that they come in early, leave late regardless of private/public sector. If I came into work early to get admin jobs done, I would not expect a 2 hour lunch break. You're paid for your lunch break. Should we pay everyone to eat. I acknowledge that you get paid to supervise and get 15 mins to get down your lunch, but as you say, you dont 'officially' work long enough to justify longer than a 15 min break.

    I don't get your point.. You want me to stop doing the extra work so I can go home and eat instead? Officially or not, I stay in work long enough to get my work done, as you do. You want me to stay long enough to do my job every day, but take no more than 15 mins to eat?
    karlitob wrote: »
    You say your wife is an accountant. I'm sure she's in work early, comes home late, pressure increases at end of quarter and doesn't have 3 months holidays a year. Does she earn the same or similar.

    Im not going to discuss my wife's wages tbh. As I said, she prefers her job to mine, i.e. if she could change careers tomorrow to my job, she wouldnt.
    karlitob wrote: »
    I just can't see how you expect people to get onside with teachers if they are the hours/leave you receive.

    I don't expect anyone to do anything at all. I applied for the course and knew the t's & c's and the expectations before I did it. I could have chosen any career. I chose this one.
    karlitob wrote: »
    Can you give people a good reason why a permanent teacher, paid a years salary, should continue to have 3 months of leave (2 in the summer, 1 week at Oct and Easter and 2 weeks at xmas)?

    I earn what I get paid. I can say that because I know what work I do, and how much I get paid. I'm not looking for a medal. Im just looking for my wages and to quietly live life and bother nobody.

    If we turn teaching into a 21 day holiday job, with minimal wages, and 15 mins lunch a day, will that give people who dislike teachers a warm glow? Maybe. Will it cause people who'd make good teachers decided not to follow the career at all? Maybe.

    I'll leave you all to it anyway. Its hard to convince some people that you earn your wages.


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  • #7
    Zaph
    Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47,352 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    karlitob, it's clear that you have a completely different agenda here to the one that you purported in your OP. Asking seemingly innocent questions so you can simply pick apart the answers in your replies is flaming and/or trolling, both of which are forbidden on this site. I'm putting an end to this now and am locking this thread.


This discussion has been closed.
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