starting a Irish version of UKARA/UKAPA?

smurfin

ok just curious as too how many people would like to see an organization like UKARA/UKAPA set up in Ireland?
should be interesting to see what people think of this?

deepimpact

An Irish version of UKAPA? Click the link in my sig.

NakedDex

Furthermore.

An Irish version of UKARA?


<explosion>

Firekitten

You dont NEED a Ukara scheme. and you HAVE a version of the UKAPA... the IAA. if and when you need a ukara styled scheme, the IAA will likely run it too, as they cover retailers and players.



UKARA in ireland... Duck and fooking cover.

Leftyflip

*Runs around in circles shouting "NO NO NO!!" and blocks ears*

Bolas

smurfin wrote: »

ok just curious as too how many people would like to see an organization like UKARA/UKAPA set up in Ireland?
should be interesting to see what people think of this?

It already exists http://irishairsoft.ie/

swiftblade

Can open......worms everywhere........ :pac:

Honestly I would not be in favour. What we have works. Why change something that isn't broken?

NakedDex

Can? Shipping container. Opened with shape charges. In mid-air over a populated area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYxvVe9y5NQ

Stercus Accidit

UKARA is a fucking cartel that exploits its legal position and monopoly to shaft money out of airsofters in the UK. GTFO, the IAA worked its arse off to secure Irish airsoft legally with sensible legislation.

J.D.R

Just out of curiosity, (and some ignorance), what is wrong with UKARA?

I have never played in the UK, and doubtfully will in the near future, so I have no experience with it at all

Hivemind187

... seriously?

THIS again?

Is there nothing in the newbies thread about why the UKARA wouldnt work here?

eadyzrx1200

swiftblade wrote: »

Can open......worms everywhere........ :pac:

Honestly I would not be in favour. What we have works. Why change something that isn't broken?

It looks broken
Chairperson
Vacant
Vice-Chairperson
Tadhg Scanlan (tadhg.scanlan@irishairsoft.ie)
Secretary
Alan Ciapas (alan.ciapas@irishairsoft.ie)
Treasurer
Tom Keogh (tom.keogh@irishairsoft.ie)
PRO
Richard Smith (richard.smith@irishairsoft.ie)
Legal Advisor
Vacant
Technical Advisor
Vacant
Events Officer
Vacant
Safety/Training Officer
Vacant


Their web site is well out of date

NakedDex

If the community aren't willing to get involved, it's going to keep looking like that. I've seen the same happen in several sports clubs. It's a cause for participation, not panic.

Changing from a working system lacking manpower, to a broken system with an abundance of bureaucracy and steeped in cartel allegations isn't progression. It's regression. Entire national organisations have consulted with, and virtually verbatim copied, the IAA and their structure, procedures and constitution.
Seems like a hell of an endorsement over our closest and over-shadowing neighbours system.

deepimpact

eadyzrx1200 wrote: »

It looks broken

We are most certainly not broken. If you think we are, volunteer to help. info@irishairsoft is the email address.

We also have a complete executive committee (the last four positions listed are non-exec positions). I have assumed the responsibilities of Chairman.

Their web site is well out of date

We are working on a complete overhall of the IAA website with our PRO and IT consultant.

Firekitten

Assumed the position? At the AGM I take it?

deepimpact

Firekitten wrote: »

Assumed the position? At the AGM I take it?

Amended. I assumed the responsibilities, not the position.

Lemming

J.D.R wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, (and some ignorance), what is wrong with UKARA?

The "UKARA" system that everyone refers to is a symptom, not the cause and I think has had undue negative attention unfairly directed its way that should perhaps be directed at the UK home office. It is one of several ways of availing of the 'skirmisher defence' laid out by the VCRA (more on this later) in order to buy/import airsoft guns and/or external parts into the UK.

As part of the VCRA [1], airsoft guns and some external parts therein have been moved under legal definition as RIFs [2] as an attempt to address the fact that they aren't quite toys, but aren't firearms either. As part of this legal definition comes tightened laws around who is entitled to buy/import them and under what criteria;

• Anyone over the age of 18 can own a two-tone RIF (i.e. at least 40/50% of the gun must be a rather obvious "non-gun" colour, e.g. luminous blue/green/orange.)
• Re-enactors & television/film production
• Anyone over the age of 18 who can avail of the 'skirmisher' defense..

Those are the three main categories contained within the VCRA regarding who can buy/import RIFs/external parts. I might be missing one or two and I'll point that caveat out now. The first two are self-explanatory, and the until the skirmisher defence was brought in by heavy lobbying by UKASGB [3], UKARA [4] & the ABA [5], the home office was going to write airsoft out of existence in the UK. Anyone (of any age) with existing RIFs is unaffected by this law until they attempt to cross UK borders with said RIFs

So what is this defence?

The skirmisher defence is an attempt to show (within reasonable effort) that someone plays airsoft on a not infrequent basis and isn't some random joe bloggs who decides that "dah slingbaker in de shop window look baleedin' rapi' wah?" and wants to go terrorising people in the local park. The defence is not without its flaws and short-comings, but as those who put in the ground work for its inclusion in law will point out; the alternative was to say goodbye to airsoft.

So what qualifies one for the defence? The home office have not issued any guidance on this because ... they hadn't given a great deal of thought to the matter since the VCRA was to a degree - regarding airsoft - show boat realpolitik rather than anything else. It was suggested that reasonable defence would be somebody who has played not less than three times in more than one month. In short, to have played at least three games over two or more months at a site. I guess that there is also a rationale in sites knowing their members since they are essentially vouching for them by stamping the UKARA forms before they're sent away for processing.

There are other means of satisfying HMRC [6] that you are entitled to avail of the defence, but UKARA registration/membership is probably the path of least resistance for anyone resident in the UK to buy or import airsoft guns/external parts.

Granted, many UK retailers will insist that anybody from within the UK wishing to buy from them has to provide UKARA membership and that is their own business (no different than notices of "reserve right of admission, etc.") as it does cut the numbers eligible to buy from them. But it also covers the sellers (both retailer and private I should point out) should any legal heat come down as a result of said sales.

Apart from the shortcomings and flaws in the UKARA registration system, it does also have one benefit; dealings with HMRC are far more consistent and less haphazard than with their Irish counterpart. Goods are stopped, HMRC will contact the buyer, buyer provides UKARA number (or other means of providing entitlement to the defense), and assuming all is kosher when HMRC check this, goods get released - probably along with customs charges incurred.

The defence (and the various ways of availing of it, including UKARA) does not constitute a monopoly for UK retailers since if you cannot prove defence, UK retailers wouldn't sell to you anyway. If you can, you are able to either buy from them, or abroad without hindrance. I'll also add that the UKARA registration system is as much for retailers to cover themselves as it was an attempt to provide the home office with some sort of self-policing 'metric' for proving defence.

My personal experience of the VCRA and the skirmisher defence is long and varied. I've travelled many, many times to the UK for events and skirmish days whilst living in Ireland using both air and ferry travel. A letter of invitation by site/event organiser always satisfied the powers that be (e.g. ferry police, HMRC, airport security, ferry staff, airline staff). As a UK resident, I have found the VCRA defence to be a pain in the @rse, but get yourself down to your local site for a few games and then its no longer a problem. UKARA registration is free anyway. I can now go mad ordering from inside/outside the UK as much as I want without fear of someone going "I dun lik de look o'dat!! shuuuure ye can't be having dos tings! Wont someone tink o'de children!".


[1] Violent Crime Reduction Act, enacted Oct 1st 2007

[2] Replica Imitation Firearm

[3] UK Airsoft Site Governing Body

[4] UK Airsoft Retailers Association

[5] Association of British Airsoft

[6] Her Majesty's Royal Customs

J.D.R

Just have to say lemming, thanking the post isn't enough. Thank you for an extremely informative post, I really appreciate it

OddysAirsoft

And this is what is wrong with Airsoft Boards - a guy comes on and asks an innocent question (regardless of whether it's been asked before!) and he gets this tirade of abuse!

Only one decent attempt (Lemming) at answering the question.


I know guys you have been there, seen it all and got the T-Shirts but lads, there are a lot of new people coming to the sport - who don't know the history - please give them a fighting chance before you all scare them off!!!!

Firekitten

OddysAirsoft wrote: »

And this is what is wrong with Airsoft Boards - a guy comes on and asks an innocent question (regardless of whether it's been asked before!) and he gets this tirade of abuse!

Only one decent attempt (Lemming) at answering the question.


I know guys you have been there, seen it all and got the T-Shirts but lads, there are a lot of new people coming to the sport - who don't know the history - please give them a fighting chance before you all scare them off!!!!

I dont think saying 'Ireland doesn't need this system, and if it did need one, it would be looked after by the IAA' qualifies as abuse... Infact, the question was answered pretty well on the first page. Any ire, was direct at the UKARA system, not anyone on here...

Can I see the version of boards you read? It seems like serious business.

deepimpact

So my original reply was a "tirade of abuse" directed at the OP? I answered one part of the question;

An Irish version of UKAPA? Click the link in my sig.

The link would bring the person who clicked it to the IAA homepage.

Lemming

OddysAirsoft wrote: »

And this is what is wrong with Airsoft Boards - a guy comes on and asks an innocent question (regardless of whether it's been asked before!) and he gets this tirade of abuse!

Only one decent attempt (Lemming) at answering the question.


I know guys you have been there, seen it all and got the T-Shirts but lads, there are a lot of new people coming to the sport - who don't know the history - please give them a fighting chance before you all scare them off!!!!

Sorry Oddy, but I have to disagree with the assertion that there has been a tirade of abuse. Yes there has been some emotive responses; but nothing "abusive" that has been directed at the OP imo. The discussion of restrictive schemes to control who can and cannot purchase airsoft guns is an emotive issue; not just in Ireland or the UK. If you want to watch carnage, take a look at what's going in the US with the ATF acting (in error I should add) like Basil Fawlty with one of the GBBR m4 variants ...

I have no problems with people asking genuine, innocent questions; but like any question that concerns telling people what they can and cannot do with their hobby, don't be surprised if someone jumps up and down in an excitable fashion.

Stercus Accidit

OddysAirsoft wrote: »

And this is what is wrong with Airsoft Boards - a guy comes on and asks an innocent question (regardless of whether it's been asked before!) and he gets this tirade of abuse!

Nobody abused the OP, they expressed their honest opinion on the topic. Its extremely dishonest of you to imply people abused him rather than the idea of a UKARA system, and its not the first time I've seen you misrepresenting the posts and intentions of others and then criticizing them.

Leftyflip

Sh*tstorm imminent, retreat to safe distance and get popcorn.


Nom nom nom nom.

OddysAirsoft

Ok ...let's put this into perspective before said **itstorm gets out of control. I never said anyone abused the OP but rereading what I said could have read that way so apologies - it was a late post (for me!) and I could have worded it better. Apologies again. My problem is that everyone just gets so damned emotive on subjects and whilst they feel their post is full of passion and experience it can come across to a newbie as border line arrogant and dismissive - I for one thought the original OP post was a genuine question that would be open to some thought provoking posting - I was wrong! Just stupid comments and youtube clips insinuating that the subject is a dead duck but no one really answering the chaps question except for Lemming.

Hivemind187 ... seriously?

THIS again?

My point....... I know you have all been there and done that but there are a lot of peeps that haven't. That's all my point was - so yes 'tirade of abuse' was the wrong vernacular and misrepresented my thoughts and I again apologise for that but my sentiment stays unswayed.

Its extremely dishonest of you to imply people abused him rather than the idea of a UKARA system, and its not the first time I've seen you misrepresenting the posts and intentions of others and then criticizing them.

oh really - when? Because I didn't agree with the clique on here - boo hoo go cry me a river! I am many things my friend but dishonest is not one of them! I get things wrong sometimes but I am man enough to to apologise - but at least I have the Gonads to say it as I see it rather than knife people in the back whilst smiling to their faces!

and its not the first time I've seen you misrepresenting the posts and intentions of others and then criticizing them.

I never misrepresent post on Boards EVER! I read the post and react accordingly - if the post is misinterpreted then it is the fault of the poster not making it crystal clear - my original post is a case in point - my mistake - not the others for how they read it. But accusing me that I intentionally go looking to twist the intentions of posters and then openly criticise them is a bit low - even for you! Suggest you take your claws out of my face and move along before I say something that won't be misinterpreted!

Won't be getting into anymore pin-pong jousting on this thread so

Oddy Out!

Hivemind187

Oddy, don't you realise its dishonest to cherry pick from what someone says in order to try and justify a cock up on your part?

Because it is.

And you just did.

Firekitten

OddysAirsoft wrote: »

oh really - when? Because I didn't agree with the clique on here - boo hoo go cry me a river! I am many things my friend but dishonest is not one of them! I get things wrong sometimes but I am man enough to to apologise - but at least I have the Gonads to say it as I see it rather than knife people in the back whilst smiling to their faces!

"Ello Monsieur kettle, we 'ave a collect call from a Monsieur Pot, Will you collect ze charges?"

TheDoc

The same threads ten times a year get less and less interesting.

It is hardly being abusive towards the OP, but in fairness ther ehas been a **** tonne of these threads over the years.

The search function borught me back 5 results and thats me looking at a glance.

And thats when there was alot of posters, alot of heart and itnerest.

I just dont think people are half as ****ed anymore explaining the reasons why, so really if the OP wants some seriously informative and good information with a bit of spice, search this forum go back about 1-2 years and there is some cracking stuff.

NakedDex

I heard YouTube clips, that's fire aimed at my head.

Oddy, I made three posts on the question in hand.
Post 1: A non-abusive, non-arrogant, subtle implication that the UKARA would be a terrible idea to mimic. If this wasn't immediately evident, the post would have seemed amusing at best, and cryptic at worst. Certainly not arrogant, dismissive or abusive.
Furthermore, this was posted in quick succession and directly behind a post by Scanlant with a link to, essentially, all necessary answers for the OP from an official standpoint via the IAA website.

Post 2: Aforementioned YouTube clip was posted, along with a comedically inferred escalation of an old adage used to describe topics such as these pretty extensively, to keep the conversation light hearted and drama free.

Post 3: A breakdown explanation of why the IAA positional structure is lacking names beside the non-exec positions and in the position of Chairman, in direct response to the allegation of the IAA system being "broken" for such reason.


I fail to see abusive points in said posts. Furthermore, I put it forward that this thread had been "drama free" until your own post insinuating that all previous posts, with the exception of Lemmings breakdown of the UKARA, were in some way invalid and indicative of "what is wrong with Airsoft Boards", wherein the allegation of such was actually the catalyst for the problem you undertook to illustrate.
Had you not made such remarks re: previous posts and their quality, what turn did you expect this thread to take? As it was, it had been progressing nicely, politely and informatively.
To use an American football term; forward progress has stopped, reset the play.

As Doc has mentioned, the reason for such unilateral detestment of such threads is that basic research via the underused Search function will yield all the reasons why and why not. A trip to the FAQ on the IAA site will yield answers regarding how our structure is different and why, with a convenient forum link to offer a place to ask the committee questions personally.
The question arises as religiously as "What gun should I get".
I'm not criticising the OP for asking a question, but he asked for an opinion, a debate. The people prior to your post were engaged in such a debate. Granted there were lighthearted remarks in place of "serious business" posts, but the opinions were being expressed nonetheless.


Now, would it be so hard to get back on track and forget the post that sparked this dramatic fire?