Libya and regime change ?

katy39

Where does it say that you cannot force Regime change on a country
And if you cant how come this head line was in the papers ?
"Leaders of Britain, France and the United States vowed on Friday to keep up their military campaign in Libya until Muammar Gaddafi leaves power,..."
Is this not blatantly forcing regime change or am I getting the wrong end of the stick .

Local-womanizer

Changing "Regime to democracy" possibly!

But,if it gives them a chance to live without fear of a crazy,egotistical,murderous dictator kicking their door in a killing them for an off the cuff comment then everyone is better off.

PatsytheNazi

katy39 wrote: »

Where does it say that you cannot force Regime change on a country
And if you cant how come this head line was in the papers ?
"Leaders of Britain, France and the United States vowed on Friday to keep up their military campaign in Libya until Muammar Gaddafi leaves power,..."
Is this not blatantly forcing regime change or am I getting the wrong end of the stick .

They'll be a long time getting rid of him or his son who looks likely to take over Daddy's job some day unfortunately. Ah sure, if he sticks in a few cosmetic reforms and then starts buying weapons from his old pals in the west he'll be grand again.

twinytwo

katy39 wrote: »

Where does it say that you cannot force Regime change on a country
And if you cant how come this head line was in the papers ?
"Leaders of Britain, France and the United States vowed on Friday to keep up their military campaign in Libya until Muammar Gaddafi leaves power,..."
Is this not blatantly forcing regime change or am I getting the wrong end of the stick .

but in typical american fashion they will install someone who is "loyal" to them...

RMD

twinytwo wrote: »

but in typical american fashion they will install someone who is "loyal" to them...

I hate to say it but someone who is "loyal" to them is a good change, it usually comes with democracy and reforms similar to a western society. Last thing Libya needs is for Gaddafi to remain, and the last thing the world needs is for Islamic militants to take power once Gaddafi is gone.

johngalway

katy39 wrote: »

Is this not blatantly forcing regime change

Nothing wrong with that when it comes to the likes of Ghadaffi, that pot bellied North Korean midget, Iran, and a host of other looneys.

The pen is mightier than the sword only in the West, otherwise, the guy with the sword wins.

unreggd

Its stupid that all his henchman who stepped down and left couldnt have killed him before they left

I dont care about justice for the sake of it, the mans an utter scumbag, and has already killed hundreds of civilians

His death with save lives, and change so many more for the better

Merch

unreggd wrote: »

Its stupid that all his henchman who stepped down and left couldnt have killed him before they left

I dont care about justice for the sake of it, the mans an utter scumbag, and has already killed hundreds of civilians

His death with save lives, and change so many more for the better

Do you have some proof of this? or are you just repeating what you heard.

RMD

Merch wrote: »

Do you have some proof of this? or are you just repeating what you heard.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/171232.html
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?ID=215294&R=R1
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=214467
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/133000/20110411/libya-misrata-civilians.htm
http://www.newser.com/article/d9mjklv80/witnesses-gadhafi-forces-shell-rebel-held-city-kill-13-civilians-tripoli-hit-by-new-blasts.html
http://www.herald.co.zw/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7493:russia-advises-gadaffi-to-quit&catid=45:international-news&Itemid=137

I've avoided the major pro-coalition media outlets since I assume you'll count them as unreliable and biased?

Raging_Ninja

Merch wrote: »

Do you have some proof of this? or are you just repeating what you heard.

Lockerbie ring any bells?

Merch

I'm not defending him so dont attack me please, Im trying to look at the facts

RMD wrote: »

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/171232.html
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?ID=215294&R=R1
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=214467
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/133000/20110411/libya-misrata-civilians.htm
http://www.newser.com/article/d9mjklv80/witnesses-gadhafi-forces-shell-rebel-held-city-kill-13-civilians-tripoli-hit-by-new-blasts.html
http://www.herald.co.zw/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7493:russia-advises-gadaffi-to-quit&catid=45:international-news&Itemid=137

I've avoided the major pro-coalition media outlets since I assume you'll count them as unreliable and biased?

Still they are newspaper articles, and they are recent, Id expect papers to say civilians are dying, they are fighting it out with each other, it doesnt mean they arent armed or for that matter doing anything illegal (such as murder) themselves. Again I'm not condoning it, but more than hundreds have died in Gaza, wheres the uproar for regime change there? certainly more than hundreds have died in iraq and Afghanistan, tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands in total.

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

Lockerbie ring any bells?

I dont believe there is any proof of that? i think you just believe what you hear. It seems the people responsible holed up there, but it doesnt mean Gaddaffi ordered it?

I find it hard to accept when countries with huge military might row in and demand regime change by bombing change (that have if nothing, by their past inaction supported Gaddaffi). The UK, US or France doesnt give a damn about those civilians, it just suits them to get rid of gaddaffi. If the instability after the 2003 Iraq invasion is anything to go by, Id say they are better off without foreign intervention. Intervention by refusing to buy their oil or gas, maybe that would force change, but how likely is that?

Merch

katy39 wrote: »

Where does it say that you cannot force Regime change on a country
And if you cant how come this head line was in the papers ?
"Leaders of Britain, France and the United States vowed on Friday to keep up their military campaign in Libya until Muammar Gaddafi leaves power,..."
Is this not blatantly forcing regime change or am I getting the wrong end of the stick .

In answer to your question

http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/50/ares50-172.htm

RMD

Merch wrote: »

I'm not defending him so dont attack me please, Im trying to look at the facts

Sorry thought you were one of the "oh it's western media that doesn't count as a source" type person, didn't mean to come across as attacking you.

Still they are newspaper articles, and they are recent, Id expect papers to say civilians are dying, they are fighting it out with each other, it doesnt mean they arent armed or for that matter doing anything illegal (such as murder) themselves. Again I'm not condoning it, but more than hundreds have died in Gaza, wheres the uproar for regime change there? certainly more than hundreds have died in iraq and Afghanistan, tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands in total.

I'd support a policy change or some form of sanctions on Israel for their actions on Palestine but they're supported by America thus supported by the majority of Western countries, as soon as you talk about Israel negatively anyway they'll pull the anti-Semitic card making themselves out to be the victim. We could talk about regime changes in other countries and the many policies of NATO countries on other regimes, but that's a topic that could cover hundreds of pages with all sort of opinions shared and next to nothing will be resolved in the end. So instead, I'll just be happy that Gaddafi might go and there'll be a fairer system in Libya.

There's not much than can be done in Iraq right now, it's a sectarian war between the different sects of Islam and also a guerrilla war between terrorist groups and coalition forces. Afghanistan is either fight on and eventually hope peace comes to the country, or leave and let a bunch of fundamentalist fascists rule it while limit human rights and harm whoever gets in their way or goes against their opinions / policies.

Merch

RMD wrote: »

Sorry thought you were one of the "oh it's western media that doesn't count as a source" type person, didn't mean to come across as attacking you.

I didnt mean you not to attack me, I meant anyone. Im not actually trying to defend him. Its possible he is mad or maybe not, I think he has spoken some words of truth too.
http://bornblackmag.com/Gaddafi-speech.html
The west acts very hypocritically, so I'd be somewhat wary of any newspaper article, not western specifically, you never know who might own it in the end.

It seem certain western nations only have to point and say, he's killed hundreds of civilians and all of a sudden everyone rows in behind it because they believe it, because such a thing would be horrible if it happened.
But on the other hand they participate in such activities themselves

Tea drinker

Yes Gaddafi is a SOB, but where were these people when al magrahi weas released? What support did they give US against Libya when it should have been delivered after Lockerbie, after the Bombings in Germany?
Looks to me like they have been supporting Gaddaffi regime, having high level diplomatic contacts, bending to his will.
The problem is too many oil contracts went to Russians, and now NATO is in to ensure some "oil change" acceptable to our betters.

How many civilians have the rebel-NATO coalition killed at this stage?
Bear in mind these rebel areas were where most of the foreign AQ fighters in Iraq were from. The rebels seem to be a minority and not representative of the Libyan people. They can't excersise any power there in spite of NATO backing. They have no legitimicy. I looked at a few videos of wht they did to captured soldiers, mutilating bodies, executing prisoners etc.
These are very bad guys. As there is no "good side" in this conflict I reckon we should leave them to it.

BrianD

RMD wrote: »

I hate to say it but someone who is "loyal" to them is a good change, it usually comes with democracy and reforms similar to a western society. Last thing Libya needs is for Gaddafi to remain, and the last thing the world needs is for Islamic militants to take power once Gaddafi is gone.

Can you give a few examples of where this actually happened?