Can we not scrap the croke park agreement?

7sr2z3fely84g5

The country is broke ffs,looking at 2000 staff be going in AIB,no softly soft approach there.

Midweek did feature on the 40+days holidays some managers get in councils :rolleyes:

http://www.tv3.ie/shows.php?request=midweek&tv3_preview=&video=34705

godscop

You watch Midweek ?

fakearms123

Closed the link as soon as I saw it was MidWeek, I've had enough boners for one morning thank you very much

7sr2z3fely84g5

godscop wrote: »

You watch Midweek ?

Wednesday night movies on rte usually shíte or being shown numerous times.

Rabidlamb

But they're meeting their targets..... Muahaaahaahaa...

The dogs in the street know the IMF will break the CPA unless FG/Howlin have the balls to do it first.
There were 30% pay reductions imposed on the PS in Greece, expect something similar.
Meanwhile the bearded wonders will still be arguing over empire days.

pragmatic1

We have to. No choice in the matter.

cosmicfart

Miles Tight Bean wrote: »

The country is broke ffs,looking at 2000 staff be going in AIB,no softly soft approach there.

Midweek did feature on the 40+days holidays some managers get in councils :rolleyes:

http://www.tv3.ie/shows.php?request=midweek&tv3_preview=&video=34705

would have been better to scrap the banks and last government when we had the chance! now we have to read crap like this and other rubbish like on bord reports that are pure wastage. yes the country is broke, no slashing of public services will make even the slightest dent in the BILLIONS we owe. pointless threads like this are hurting my eyes to read

holystungun9

cosmicfart wrote: »

would have been better to scrap the banks and last government when we had the chance! now we have to read crap like this and other rubbish like on bord reports that are pure wastage. yes the country is broke, no slashing of public services will make even the slightest dent in the BILLIONS we owe. pointless threads like this are hurting my eyes to read

Hope you have a medical card. Wish I had one.

cosmicfart

holystungun9 wrote: »

Hope you have a medical card. Wish I had one.

no I do work hard for a living though

mikedragon32

Oh look. Another well informed Public Service bashing thread...

PCPhoto

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Oh look. Another well informed Public Service bashing thread...

oh look another sarcastic remark trying to make light of the FACT the Public Service in this country is overloaded and overpaid and something needs to be done about it.

Rabidlamb

All people are asking for is that the PS returns to normal levels of salary with comparable terms & conditions as the private sector.
Would you accept another round of benchmarking or is that a one way street ?.

mlumley

PCPhoto wrote: »

oh look another sarcastic remark trying to make light of the FACT the Public Service in this country is overloaded and overpaid and something needs to be done about it.

They are not all overpaid, just the boss's, get your facts right before you post.

dabestman1

aren't bankworkers technically ps workers now

solerina

Lets save money by cutting off all the social welfare scammers instead.....and anyone on social welfare for over 4 years because they were there in the good times when there were plenty of jobs........

Predalien

Rabidlamb wrote: »

All people are asking for is that the PS returns to normal levels of salary with comparable terms & conditions as the private sector.
Would you accept another round of benchmarking or is that a one way street ?.

They've already taken an average 14% pay cut, I agree various reforms are necessary (reduce holidays, getting rid of quangos, bigger cuts for higher paid civil servants) but eventually we are going to have to stop taking money out of the economy, the private sector loses jobs because of public sector cuts too, plus recent entrants to the public sector are amongst those most likely to have bought property at the height of the boom so further cuts will put more mortgages in trouble, which will mean bigger problems for the banks.

That said I think any further savings in the public sector should possibly be used to stimulate job creation in the private sector, the welfare bill is my biggest concern and needs some stimulus so help sort it.

dabestman1

now its a social welfare bashing thread

Rabidlamb

mlumley wrote: »

They are not all overpaid, just the boss's, get your facts right before you post.

Why then is there not internal revolt within the PS to tackle these overpaid middle managers.
I have a sister who's just been made vice-principal of her primary school as she had already reached the top of her pay grade.
Well deserved you might say until she tells me there are also 2 other vice-principals.
She's a realist & knows the chop is coming.

PCPhoto

mlumley wrote: »

They are not all overpaid, just the boss's, get your facts right before you post.

where in my post did I say "ALL" .... everyone knows frontline staff are under-resourced and possibly underpaid/undervalued.

and (meeeooowwww) .... its NOT "just the boss's" its middle management and the many levels of middle management.

Happy now ???

in general the civil service are overpaid/underworked .....WHEN Compared to the private sector.....I personally would love an extra 20,000 gardai on the streets IF they actually enforced the laws, I would love an extra 10,000 nurses/doctors treating people who are injured/sick.....we have too many pencil pushers and the correct way to deal with it is to completely change the rules - new staff, new procedures, new positions ....get rid of the croke park agreement and start fresh.....out with the old and in with the new.

7sr2z3fely84g5

Welfare is facing a chop,only problem is,the john and marys who now had their suvs took off them,wanted to keep up with the jones and get the bigger houses on mortgage they cannot afford in first place is now paid for by welfare.

PCPhoto

why didn't the politicians just declare the country bankrupt and start again.... instead they borrow and make the entire country suffer while they continue their comfortable "paid for" lives.

cosmicfart

PCPhoto wrote: »

oh look another sarcastic remark trying to make light of the FACT the Public Service in this country is overloaded and overpaid and something needs to be done about it.

oh look another person with a lot of time on their hands possibly on the dole or a student who hasent got a clue what they are talking about and they are just jealous of people with a job

Inquitus

More PS Paycuts on the way
More Welfare cuts on the way
Higher Taxes for all on the way

The Future's bright, The Future's.....

cosmicfart

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Why then is there not internal revolt within the PS to tackle these overpaid middle managers.
I have a sister who's just been made vice-principal of her primary school as she had already reached the top of her pay grade.
Well deserved you might say until she tells me there are also 2 other vice-principals.
She's a realist & knows the chop is coming.

the top end of the scale is overpaid, lower to middle paid PS workers have had their wages cut exactly at the rate as the higher managers yet these higher up managers have ten times what lower paid workers get

arybvtcw0eolkf

PCPhoto wrote: »

oh look another sarcastic remark trying to make light of the FACT the Public Service in this country is overloaded and overpaid and something needs to be done about it.

My son is a part time worker in a major chain of supermarkets - he's paid more per hour than I am, and I've bee in my job 27yrs.

When the country was partying I was working two jobs or travelling oversea's to boost my income.

Tbh, your either being purposely very selective or just plain ignorant.

The Waltzing Consumer

cosmicfart wrote: »

oh look another person with a lot of time on their hands possibly on the dole or a student who hasent got a clue what they are talking about and they are just jealous of people with a job

To be fair, the people on this thread who are calling for more reform in public service are trying as much as possible to indicate the types of public service jobs which are way overpaid or are wasteful or are completely unnecessary, which exists in the public service. They certainly have not attempted to throw all the public service in one pot and label them all the same.

If these people are making the effort to distinguish between the levels of public service, perhaps you should make the effort too.

cosmicfart

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

To be fair, the people on this thread who are calling for more reform in public service are trying as much as possible to indicate the types of public service jobs which are way overpaid or are wasteful or are completely unnecessary, which exists in the public service. They certainly have not attempted to throw all the public service in one pot and label them all the same.

If these people are making the effort to distinguish between the levels of public service, perhaps you should make the effort too.

I work in the PS so I know what im talking about and I have every respect for all grades. what bugs the hell out of me is the witch hunt here, in the media and non PS in general who seem to think the PS is the reason for the recession and that slashing people of their jobs will actually make a dent in the BILLIONS THE BANKS raped from all us taxpayers.

PCPhoto

cosmicfart wrote: »

oh look another person with a lot of time on their hands possibly on the dole or a student who hasent got a clue what they are talking about and they are just jealous of people with a job

Ha !! ... eh no... self employed and currently working 6 days a week .... but sick to death of people claiming the civil service in this country is working fine and should not be touched/dismantled.

The croke park agreement protects the jobs/careerslives of many people who are overpaid and underworked.

Are you a public sector worker? or just someone who enjoys making wild statements without any base in FACT (your statement above ...completely wrong)

th3 s1aught3r

The IMF/ECB are in town and will hopefully tell the government to slash the PS pay. Irish public sector are paid 40% more on average than other EU countries. madness considering the country is broke

Viper_JB

cosmicfart wrote: »

I work in the PS so I know what im talking about and I have every respect for all grades. what bugs the hell out of me is the witch hunt here, in the media and non PS in general who seem to think the PS is the reason for the recession and that slashing people of their jobs will actually make a dent in the BILLIONS THE BANKS rape from all us taxpayers.

Clearly...
However you don't help the public sectors case by implying that no changes need to be made, it's a simple fact that the public sector needs to expand and contract with the pirvate sector - private sector mostly pays for the public sector, now reciently the private sector has been reduced heavily in this country, however the public sector has not been reduced to match, and it needs to be, reguardless of how much or how little work people are doing there the country cannot afford it as it is. I agree with you on the banks but at this stage it's almost a seperate issue. It's been the case for too long that middle managers and higher managers working in the PS have gotten yearly increments on their already inflated wages with out any basis in performance or meeting goals/targets just for being there another year. I can understand the defensivness, and no one is saying that the front facing public servents who actually serve a function deserve to take pay cuts, but have a look at your managers and their managers and tell me that they all deserve their wages/jobs for the constint hard work that they do and that no cut backs could possibly be made there.

TheZohanS

PCPhoto wrote: »

oh look another sarcastic remark trying to make light of the FACT the Public Service in this country is overloaded and overpaid and something needs to be done about it.

Over loaded with supervisors, middle managers and over-paid senior managers that do feck all.

Streamline administration and use the savings to fund frontline workers.

The Waltzing Consumer

cosmicfart wrote: »

I work in the PS so I know what im talking about and I have every respect for all grades. what bugs the hell out of me is the witch hunt here, in the media and non PS in general who seem to think the PS is the reason for the recession and that slashing people of their jobs will actually make a dent in the BILLIONS THE BANKS raped from all us taxpayers.

Em, well that's hysterical and it pretty much highlights what I said to you. Unless someone in this thread accused the PS of causing the recession, it is completely over-the-top and not necessary in this discussion. Overall, people, in this thread, have been trying to not generalise and not paint all the public service with one brush. So can you do the same? The OP and others have attacked waste and over-the-top salaries that exist in SOME positions in the public service which is a fact right? So let us stick to that instead of replying with completely unrelated comments, gossip and more generalising from your point of view.

cosmicfart

Viper_JB wrote: »

Clearly...
However you don't help the public sectors case by implying that no changes need to be made, it's a simple fact that the public sector needs to expand and contract with the pirvate sector - private sector mostly pays for the public sector, now reciently the private sector has been reduced heavily in this country, however the public sector has not been reduced to match, and it needs to be, reguardless of how much or how little work people are doing there the country cannot afford it as it is. I agree with you on the banks but at this stage it's almost a seperate issue. It's been the case for too long that middle managers and higher managers working in the PS have gotten yearly increments on their already inflated wages with out any basis in performance or meeting goals/targets just for being there another year. I can understand the defensivness, and no one is saying that the front facing public servents who actually serve a function deserve to take pay cuts, but have a look at your managers and their managers and tell me that they all deserve their wages/jobs for the constint hard work that they do and that no cut backs could possibly be made there.

Why does the PS need to contract the private sector? In what other country has this ever been done and made successful?? If the banks are a seperate issue as you say, they why do you want them, the PS and private sector working together?? The PS is not corrupt, the private clearly is/was. Our inflated wages have been deflated by 0ver 15% in the lastyear. Why do you not acknowledge or make reference to this? you are just spouting and are not clued in at all as far as i can read.....

cosmicfart

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Em, well that's hysterical and it pretty much highlights what I said to you. Unless someone in this thread accused the PS of causing the recession, it is completely over-the-top and not necessary in this discussion. Overall, people, in this thread, have been trying to not generalise and not paint all the public service with one brush. So can you do the same? The OP and others have attacked waste and over-the-top salaries that exist in SOME positions in the public service which is a fact right? So let us stick to that instead of replying with completely unrelated comments, gossip and more generalising from your point of view.

The reason there is a recession is the banks, it is their fault, whats wrong with your understanding of the situation?

The Waltzing Consumer

cosmicfart wrote: »

Why does the PS need to contract the private sector? In what other country has this ever been done and made successful?? If the banks are a seperate issue as you say, they why do you want them, the PS and private sector working together?? The PS is not corrupt, the private clearly is/was. Our inflated wages have been deflated by 0ver 15% in the lastyear. Why do you not acknowledge or make reference to this? you are just spouting and are not clued in at all as far as i can read.....

My God, you don't learn at all, do you? :mad:
Is it not possible to have a calm, logical and reasoned discussion with you without the hysterics, generalising and false arguments? The poster approached the point in a well balanced, calm and decent approach and you react with that? :rolleyes:

Oh and by the way, corruption exists in all business, public and private so the fact you don't even acknowledge any wrong-doing in the public service (does FAS not ring a bell?) shows how well this conversation will go.

Birneybau

http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/downloads/Circular_28-2009_Pay_Scales_effective_1-Jan-2010.pdf

I wonder if anyone will read this, readily available online.

I agree that the higher levels are paid way too much but the clerical officer pay scales are pretty sh!t to be honest.

TheZohanS

cosmicfart wrote: »

The reason there is a recession is the banks, it is their fault, whats wrong with your understanding of the situation?

Really? Because one could argue that it's the Financial Regulators fault for not ensuring that the banks were acting responsibly in their lending. One could also blame the government for not implementing policies to calm the property market.

The Waltzing Consumer

cosmicfart wrote: »

The reason there is a recession is the banks, it is their fault, whats wrong with your understanding of the situation?

The thread is nothing to do with the cause of the recession. The only one who brought that up has been YOU. Jesus:rolleyes:

Predalien

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

The IMF/ECB are in town and will hopefully tell the government to slash the PS pay. Irish public sector are paid 40% more on average than other EU countries. madness considering the country is broke

Not a fair comparison, should be compared with countries with similar living expenses, we are still one of the most expensive countries in Europe.

Phill Ewinn

cosmicfart wrote: »

Why does the PS need to contract the private sector? In what other country has this ever been done and made successful?? If the banks are a seperate issue as you say, they why do you want them, the PS and private sector working together?? The PS is not corrupt, the private clearly is/was. Our inflated wages have been deflated by 0ver 15% in the lastyear. Why do you not acknowledge or make reference to this? you are just spouting and are not clued in at all as far as i can read.....

Not corrupt? It took colusion from every quarter in the current oligarchy to put through the changes that allowed the bailout fraud to happen. It wasn't banks dipping our pockets but the people who let them. If you're trying to gain moral high ground here, forget it. Karma will catch up with you.

PCPhoto

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

My God, you don't learn at all, do you? :mad:
Is it not possible to have a calm, logical and reasoned discussion with you without the hysterics, generalising and false arguments? The poster approached the point in a well balanced, calm and decent approach and you react with that? :rolleyes:

Oh and by the way, corruption exists in all business, public and private so the fact you don't even acknowledge any wrong-doing in the public service (does FAS not ring a bell?) shows how well this conversation will go.

yes !! the rest of the country are wrong you are right !!

The fact of the matter is the croke park agreement ensures that jobs are not lost in the PS.....the country cannot afford to keep paying the higher earning civil servants because they cannot justify their existence.

I think its fair to agree that the front-line staff are under-resourced and underpaid ....get rid of the middle-managing pencil pushers and top of the line officials who cannot justify their salaries, use the money to pay the front-line staff and use the excess to pay the social welfare for the newly unemployed.

Why don't the frontline staff stop working until they get a better deal and until management are removed/replaced.

my original statement earlier was a sweeping generalisation - the vast majority of the civil service have not physically worked a demanding job in their lives,

At the moment I do work hard, I've taken a 15K hit this year from one of my clients -
I work 6 days a week because I need to in order to pay my bills,
I do not own a house,
I do not own a luxury car - mine was purchased in 2004 and I still have it....and its not luxury (Ford Fiesta Van)
I work as much as I can in order to pay my bills and start saving for the future,
I did borrow and take out loans in the last number of years and am paying them off,
I have worked 16/17hour days and worked 9weeks in a row (7 days a week) ....to ensure I can earn enough money to cover my bills, I've worked anti-social hours,
I cant go out drinking for fear that I receive a call to do some work.

I'm disgusted by the amount of spongers on the social welfare system and the "apparent" lack of effort to stop them, I'm appalled by the amount of recidivist (repeat criminals) who receive little or no justice, I'm disgusted by the amount of monies wasted by our politicians in order to "bail out" the banks and property developers.

people in the civil service must face the facts - there is a lot of people amongst you who are not needed or who's job could be done by a computer program, there are people who earn significant amounts of money doing the same job as you or even for doing less than you - but because they got promoted they have no problem with it.... its upto YOU to make changes, its upto YOU to complain, its upto YOU to make a stand and ask for the Croke Park agreement to be abolished.

Cookie_Monster

cosmicfart wrote: »

I work in the PS so I know what im talking about and I have every respect for all grades. what bugs the hell out of me is the witch hunt here, in the media and non PS in general who seem to think the PS is the reason for the recession and that slashing people of their jobs will actually make a dent in the BILLIONS THE BANKS raped from all us taxpayers.

the bank bailout is only ~4 years of PS pay. Yes it's big but it's not like we are pissing that kind of money up the wall every year on the banks, we are for the PS

PS pay was an issue before the banks and is still an issue that nobody in government for the last 10 years seems to think is important to look at. In fact the only interest at all has been to throw money at the PS constanly to make the headache go away, which is why we're in such a ludicrous situation with PS that's so far out of touch with EU levels and the private sector at all grades.

Rabidlamb

Predalien wrote: »

Not a fair comparison, should be compared with countries with similar living expenses, we are still one of the most expensive countries in Europe.

Maybe we're high cost cause of the inflated buying power of a large section of the workforce.
Costs wont come down until everyone is off the same playing field.

Deedsie

cosmicfart wrote: »

Why does the PS need to contract the private sector? In what other country has this ever been done and made successful?? If the banks are a seperate issue as you say, they why do you want them, the PS and private sector working together?? The PS is not corrupt, the private clearly is/was. Our inflated wages have been deflated by 0ver 15% in the lastyear. Why do you not acknowledge or make reference to this? you are just spouting and are not clued in at all as far as i can read.....

Nepotism is corruption. Fair dose of that in the PS. First hand experience seeing it. Incompetent spoilt brat of a girl gets a job, a year after the moratorium was implemented just because her Daddy was a manager in a PS state body. My contract was allowed to expire, but there was money to fund an unnecesary new recruit. The public service is as corrupt as anywhere else in Irish society.

Frowzy

PCPhoto wrote: »

people in the civil service must face the facts - there is a lot of people amongst you who are not needed or who's job could be done by a computer program

Is putting Public Servants out of a job (and therefore on the welfare) the answer?
or am I reading you wrong?

Birneybau wrote: »

I agree that the higher levels are paid way too much but the clerical officer pay scales are pretty sh!t to be honest.

Finally some sence.
I'm a PS on one of those ****ty pay scales. By the time I pay for childminding and petrol to work I have less than a dole payment to live on for the week, and I don't even have a medical card or fuel allowance etc etc

If my pay is to be cut, yet again, we need to look at cutting the cost of living in this country. I'll have to leave and go on the welfare because I'd actually be making a loss to come to work.

cosmicfart wrote: »

I work in the PS so I know what im talking about

Relax, calm yourself. There's no point in getting in a knot here. From what I read on this forum us Public Servants are being held up for whipping without a trial. I don't know what causes people to be so angry at us, we worked through the boom for those ****ty payscales and no annual bonus. I do think though that people finally are realising that it's not you or me that need to take a pay cut, but people like my boss, on four times my annual salary but dumps all her work on me while she spends her days at junkets.

/rant over..... Back to Work (and before I get any smart comments it's 1.55, I'm on me lunch (home made sandwich and a custard cream)

PCPhoto

Frowzy wrote: »

Is putting Public Servants out of a job (and therefore on the welfare) the answer?
or am I reading you wrong?



/rant over..... Back to Work (and before I get any smart comments it's 1.55, I'm on me lunch (home made sandwich and a custard cream)

you were reading me wrong - if you had read the whole piece it essentially asks for middle management to be abolished, top level execs to be cut, extra frontline staff to be hired, proper management to be established and the extra money goes to pay the execs/middle management social welfare payments.

The Civil Service at frontline service is grossly underpaid/undervalued.....the middle management area is grossly oversubscribed.

talla10

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

The IMF/ECB are in town and will hopefully tell the government to slash the PS pay. Irish public sector are paid 40% more on average than other EU countries. madness considering the country is broke

Source??

And i think the term Public Sector is much too vague. Gardai, Nurses, Prison Officers and Firefighters are not well paid and have already taken 14% pay cuts, add in the pension levy and other internal cuts they are probably down 22%-25% and working the same long hours, in difficult working conditions and a lot i know are barely keeping surviving week to week.

Yes there are, without question, many PS workers who have a handy 9-5, or 9-4 on Friday to cash there 'cheques' who have too many perks and are ineffective and lazy but i think the way to make savings without distrupting the service too much would be instead of a blanket PS wage cut there should be an audit those found to be ineffective should be cut and/or reassigned to more productive roles and management should be cut first!!

arybvtcw0eolkf

Amy Juicy Self-esteem wrote: »

My son is a part time worker in a major chain of supermarkets - he's paid more per hour than I am, and I've been in my job 27yrs.

Had to come back to this one..

Having a pint with the lad last night and he tells me, his job is paying €35 for NOT working today (Good Friday) and again for NOT working Easter Monday!.

Now obviously as my son I don't begrudge him this, but by Jesus I've never been paid for not working a holiday and could only imagine the sh*t which would be thrown in my face if as a public servant this happened.

A private sector worker being paid for not working a holiday, how does that work?.

HellFireClub

mlumley wrote: »

They are not all overpaid, just the boss's, get your facts right before you post.

Not so much overpaid as underworked...

HellFireClub

Amy Juicy Self-esteem wrote: »

Had to come back to this one..

Having a pint with the lad last night and he tells me, his job is paying €35 for NOT working today (Good Friday) and again for NOT working Easter Monday!.

Now obviously as my son I don't begrudge him this, but by Jesus I've never been paid for not working a holiday and could only imagine the sh*t which would be thrown in my face if as a public servant this happened.

A private sector worker being paid for not working a holiday, how does that work?.

If you are on a monthly salary, you get paid for bank holidays, is it not like a Sunday, as in you get paid for the week you work but you are off on the Sunday?

arybvtcw0eolkf

HellFireClub wrote: »

If you are on a monthly salary, you get paid for bank holidays, is it not like a Sunday, as in you get paid for the week you work but you are off on the Sunday?

What about a part time worker on a weekly salary?.

I've other friends who have had their bonuses increased during the recession.

Unlike the public service, the private sector isn't open to the same scrutiny.

I dare say there's a lot of hush up in the private sector, ie 'in house' payments & bonuses that we don't hear about, but yet we pay for in terms of paying for services provided.