Do you think higher fuel prices would be a good thing?????

couldntthink

First of all I want to point out that more often than not I drive a car that does between 12 and 20 mpg. I therefore would not be impressed to see further hikes. However I am also a road tax dodger, since driving I have probably only paid about 20% of what I should have. If road tax was put on fuel, the likes of me would have no choice but to pay.

Do you think it would be better and fairer and easier for everyone if road tax was made redundant and tax on fuel was increased a bit. I don't have any idea what that increase should or would need to be, but surely it would be quite a small percentage increase. I also think it would have to be different for commercial vehicles. So for now I'm talking about passenger cars.

But look at it like this, there would be no more problems with enforcement for the cops or revenue. There would be no more "it was off the road guard". No more back taxing or cars being seized, no more changing the engine size fraudulently for cheaper tax, no more paying through your ass for a car that you only use for about 5k a year while sales reps etc who do 30k a year pay the same amount. It would be much fairer because you would effectively be paying tax depending on how often you drive and what you choose to drive.

What do you think. I have nothing against sales reps by the way.

bryaner

Common sense really..... Oh wait we still live in gombeen land so not a hope..

Tomebagel

couldntthink wrote: »

First of all I want to point out that more often than not I drive a car that does between 12 and 20 mpg. I therefore would not be impressed to see further hikes. However I am also a road tax dodger, since driving I have probably only paid about 20% of what I should have. If road tax was put on fuel, the likes of me would have no choice but to pay.

Do you think it would be better and fairer and easier for everyone if road tax was made redundant and tax on fuel was increased a bit. I don't have any idea what that increase should or would need to be, but surely it would be quite a small percentage increase. I also think it would have to be different for commercial vehicles. So for now I'm talking about passenger cars.

But look at it like this, there would be no more problems with enforcement for the cops or revenue. There would be no more "it was off the road guard". No more back taxing or cars being seized, no more changing the engine size fraudulently for cheaper tax, no more paying through your ass for a car that you only use for about 5k a year while sales reps etc who do 30k a year pay the same amount. It would be much fairer because you would effectively be paying tax depending on how often you drive and what you choose to drive.

What do you think. I have nothing against sales reps by the way.

Fair play,and i genuinely mean that not being sarcastic.

Road tax is the biggest joke in this country,

wheres my 3.0 litre?

Matt Simis

couldntthink wrote: »

First of all I want to point out that more often than not I drive a car that does between 12 and 20 mpg. I therefore would not be impressed to see further hikes.

How far do you drive? Your MPG is irrelevant without knowing this.

challengemaster

I think the high fuel prices are a pretty big contributor to how bad our economy is at the moment. So no, I don't think increasing them more would be a good thing

couldntthink

Matt Simis wrote: »

How far do you drive? Your MPG is irrelevant without knowing this.

Just back from travelling, but this time last year I was driving 150 km a day in a 2.8 BMW. Stupidity, but I really liked the car. And it's not irrelevant. My whole point is based on how much fuel you use and how many miles you drive. If you do 1000 or 10 000 you pay accordingly.

couldntthink

challengemaster wrote: »

I think the high fuel prices are a pretty big contributor to how bad our economy is at the moment. So no, I don't think increasing them more would be a good thing

What about having to pay road tax? At least if it was on the fuel itself it would be spread out. With tax the way it is the cheapest option is to pay 12 months at once. So it would make no difference if you are currently paying your tax every year. As I said, I think commercials would need to be done differently.

mb1725

Might not be too long before we are paying BOTH ! This is still IMF land and will be for many a long day!

challengemaster

couldntthink wrote: »

What about having to pay road tax? At least if it was on the fuel itself it would be spread out. With tax the way it is the cheapest option is to pay 12 months at once. So it would make no difference if you are currently paying your tax every year. As I said, I think commercials would need to be done differently.

You're not really listening though - because they already have so much tax on petrol, adding more is just stupid...

Stinicker

I think tax on Diesel should be reduced dropping the price from current levels of €1.45/litre to between €1.20 - €1.25 it would reward motorists who choose efficiency and give truckers and commerce a break too.

One of the biggest disgraces in Ireland is how LPG is treated average LPG prices in Ireland are between €1.05 to €1.10/litre wheras in the UK they are around £0.75/litre.

LPG should have the tax removed and allow the industry to come back wheras it is now a niche fuel usually reserved for American Gas guzzler camper vans and anything under 20MPG, and you must be living near one of the handful of filling stations still stocking it. Poland and Thailand are two countries that have adopted Autogas in a large manner, both of which are showing far better signs of growth than here.

I also think there should be a Motor Tax cap of somewhere between €400 to €600 a year, having stupid taxe classes of upto €2k is insane.

FF and the current government are hellbent it seems on turning the car back into the plaything of the rich and not the necessity that it is to so many people worldwide.

Sack 50k useless civil & public servents, let the banks fail and burn the bond holders, reduce the tax burden and invest into the real economy and not bad banks and you will get growth again.

challengemaster

Stinicker wrote: »

I think tax on Diesel should be reduced dropping the price from current levels of €1.45/litre to between €1.20 - €1.25 it would reward motorists who choose efficiency

Woah there mr.obvious diesel user.

Stinicker

challengemaster wrote: »

Woah there mr.obvious diesel user.

I actually drive Petrol, however am changing to Diesel soon and will still get shafted, I'd actually rather convert to LPG if it was economical and feasible, but the nearest filling station is about 50 miles away! The days of filling a tank at over €100 to travel 350miles @ 28.5c a mile and its a case of the car goes or I go.... bankrupt.

99nsr125

In short
yes I think additional duty instead of car tax is a good idea
yes it can be done (France, New Zealand sort of)


Before the rules on car tax were changed in 08, Cowen requested
submissions (on a revenue neutral basis).

I submitted at this time with a comprehensive breakdown
of additional fuel duty needed to abolish car tax and provide
a revenue positive return from the abolition of the various levels
of enforcement and administration.

I used CSO statistics. IF I find the submission in one of the external
hard drives I'll post a link to it.

The long and short of it was ~12c per litre but needed to be indexed
to inflation to maintain revenue neutrality.

That amount of additional duty has been applied in the last few years but
car tax remains.

The good news is that no more duty can be added to fuel or people
will start to cross the border to buy fuel again. I was in Manchester recently
and bought fuel for 1.22 (Pounds) which was marginally cheaper
than I could buy it in Ireland and also the North luckily for the South

Kerosene is already cheaper in the North and is being smuggled south again.

Diesel already has lower duty than petrol

http://www.maxol.ie/schedule_sheets/maxol_price_schedule_654.html

and based on energy content could do with an additional 12-14 cents per litre.

Terrontress

I think that for consumers, the price of petrol is not that bad, given the mobility it gives us. The real problem is the road tax, VRT, NCT costs, parking charges and all other peripherals where it adds up. The cost of fuel is the one we have to face the most often and is the one which has risen most sharply so people hark back to that.

€5 of petrol could carry a family of 5 from their front door to a destination 25 miles away in an average car. Try to do that in any other mode of transport.

Ask 100 people on the train in the morning why they don't drive to work and their answers will be traffic making the journey slower and the inability to park at work. Not the cost of petrol.

Terrontress

99nsr125 wrote: »

The good news is that no more duty can be added to fuel or people
will start to cross the border to buy fuel again. I was in Manchester recently
and bought fuel for 1.22 (Pounds) which was marginally cheaper
than I could buy it in Ireland and also the North luckily for the South

At the weekend in South East England I bought unleaded for £1.30 in a supermarket but also saw it at £1.42 at a motorway service station.

I think that the UK is rising at a similar rate to Ireland so there won't be a massive rush over the border.

The guy who owns Morgan Fuels has a massive diesel operation just on the Southern side of the border. He also has a place on the Northern side which doesn't sell fuel but if the tide turns, he can get it going and attract Southerners instead of Northerners. Where he will lose out is if there is very little difference North or South and nobody either bothers making the trip.

I think that any difference in future will come through currency fluctuation rather than changes in taxation.

Satanta

I heard on The Last Word recently where the government are bringing in a change to the current procedure for declaring a vehicle off the road. Currently you if you can get away with not taxing the car for X months, you can go into a Garda station and get a form signed saying the car is off the road. The new method will be that you have to go in before the car is off the road and declare it as such up front. I'm not sure if this will make a huge difference unless there is some further penalties for driving a car declared off the road. I'll try to dig out some articles ion it later.

As for the OP's idea of putting the road tax on fuel. Adding 2.2c a litre at my current consumption would be the equivalent of my anual road tax (€640). Anything more and I would be losing out.

Vicxas

Not a bad idea, i honestly cant take another hike in fuel...

Seth Brundle

Stinicker wrote: »

I think tax on Diesel should be reduced dropping the price from current levels of €1.45/litre to between €1.20 - €1.25 it would reward motorists who choose efficiency and give truckers and commerce a break too.

Diesel may be more CO2 efficient but its resultant particulates and the higher nitrogen oxides are a health hazard
http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=40556


And while diesel cars are becoming cleaner, bear in mind that servicing costs are higher and this is Ireland where people generally prefer to have continuous oil services rather than strictly follow the manufacturers recommendations.

el sorcerino

well OP, I drive a 3.2 litre car and so my obvious answer is going to be yes... not just because of the car I drive but because it is the most simple and the fairest way of doing things.
- I only do about 6-7k a year and yet I pay twice as much tax as my friends who do 3 times my mileage and produce over twice the carbon?
- It's just another example of our ridiculously unfair rules and taxes!
- VRT being the main culprit of this. I mean Does any other country impose this tax?
- You're right about the tax dodging also as a stranger from rural ireland who I met last week openly told me that 'he hasn't paid tax in 15 years and only 2 people he knows pay car tax and everyone he knows is on green diesel'...
- Now I'm not saying he's telling the whole truth but it makes a point and adds weight to ur claim that a slight increase on fuel could prevent this.

galwaytt

Tomebagel wrote: »

Fair play,and i genuinely mean that not being sarcastic.

Road tax is the biggest joke in this country,

wheres my 3.0 litre?

...probably beside mine......

Stinicker wrote: »

One of the biggest disgraces in Ireland is how LPG is treated average LPG prices in Ireland are between €1.05 to €1.10/litre wheras in the UK they are around £0.75/litre.

I was in Germany last week and noticed the Autogas signs all around the place: forget which, but it was either 47c/litre or 74c/litre. Either way, I'd sign up for it at those rates. But, fuel, as pointed out, is only half the story. cc-based car tax is fiscal rape.

Vicxas wrote: »

Not a bad idea, i honestly cant take another hike in fuel...

Also in Germany last week: I paid €1.64/litre for unleaded........:eek:.......and guess what ? People still prefer petrol, and no shortage of big-engined stuff, either......

problemchimp

couldntthink wrote: »

First of all I want to point out that more often than not I drive a car that does between 12 and 20 mpg. I therefore would not be impressed to see further hikes. However I am also a road tax dodger, since driving I have probably only paid about 20% of what I should have. If road tax was put on fuel, the likes of me would have no choice but to pay.

Do you think it would be better and fairer and easier for everyone if road tax was made redundant and tax on fuel was increased a bit. I don't have any idea what that increase should or would need to be, but surely it would be quite a small percentage increase. I also think it would have to be different for commercial vehicles. So for now I'm talking about passenger cars.

But look at it like this, there would be no more problems with enforcement for the cops or revenue. There would be no more "it was off the road guard". No more back taxing or cars being seized, no more changing the engine size fraudulently for cheaper tax, no more paying through your ass for a car that you only use for about 5k a year while sales reps etc who do 30k a year pay the same amount. It would be much fairer because you would effectively be paying tax depending on how often you drive and what you choose to drive.

What do you think. I have nothing against sales reps by the way.

Pay your road tax like the rest of us and stop scrounging and only then will I believe you should have an opinion

Triangla

No it shouldn't be increased. If anything the taxes and duties on fuel should be decreased.
Everything we produce or buy depends on it getting from where it was produced to where it can be sold. Increased fuel costs equals increased cost of goods.

Between vrt, annual car tax and fuel tax/ duty the amount of taxes that car drivers pay is crazy. As for carbon tax, I've been to the US. The entire population of Ireland could cycle and walk and it won't make any impact on the rate of global warming. With a new generation of Chinese and Indians getting cars for the first time just forget about it.

Seth Brundle

<mode="pedant">

couldntthink wrote: »

...However I am also a road tax dodger, since driving I have probably only paid about 20% of what I should have. If road tax was put on fuel, the likes of me would have no choice but to pay.

Do you think it would be better and fairer and easier for everyone if road tax was made redundant...

Tomebagel wrote: »

Road tax is the biggest joke in this country,

couldntthink wrote: »

What about having to pay road tax?

99nsr125 wrote: »

In short
yes I think additional duty instead of car tax is a good idea
yes it can be done (France, New Zealand sort of)


Before the rules on car tax were changed in 08, Cowen requested
submissions (on a revenue neutral basis).
...
That amount of additional duty has been applied in the last few years but
car tax remains.

Terrontress wrote: »

...The real problem is the road tax, VRT, NCT costs, parking charges and all other peripherals where it adds up.

Satanta wrote: »

...As for the OP's idea of putting the road tax on fuel. Adding 2.2c a litre at my current consumption would be the equivalent of my anual road tax (€640). Anything more and I would be losing out.

problemchimp wrote: »

Pay your road tax like the rest of us and stop scrounging and only then will I believe you should have an opinion

It it Motor Tax!!! :mad:
Road tax suggests that it has something to do with using the roads. Car tax suggests that its for cars only.
</mode>

Triangla

And pay your road tax will you OP.

bryaner

problemchimp wrote: »

Pay your road tax like the rest of us and stop scrounging and only then will I believe you should have an opinion

What kind of sh!t talk is that.

Stinicker

Stinicker wrote: »

I think tax on Diesel should be reduced dropping the price from current levels of €1.45/litre to between €1.20 - €1.25 it would reward motorists who choose efficiency and give truckers and commerce a break too.

Motorists who chose diesel are already being rewarded with the better mpg they get. Diesel will only be getting more expensive as more folks move from petrol to diesel.

problemchimp

bryaner wrote: »

What kind of sh!t talk is that.

So you don't think the op should pay road tax?

Boskowski

Wasn't there someone on this forum explaining only a couple of weeks ago that exactly THAT was done in 1978?

Road tax abolished in exchange for increased fuel duties. Administration fee of 5 pound remained cos a car still had to be registered.

5 pound became 10, then 20, then 25. And so on.

In the end we had another 'road tax' AND the increased fuel duties.

Can anyone confirm this story?

bryaner

problemchimp wrote: »

So you don't think the op should pay road tax?

Can you read? He is talking about incorporating road tax into fuel prices..

Raskolnikov

Satanta wrote: »

As for the OP's idea of putting the road tax on fuel. Adding 2.2c a litre at my current consumption would be the equivalent of my anual road tax (€640). Anything more and I would be losing out.

Not sure where you're getting your sums from. For the government not to lose revenue from you, you would need to buy 29,090 litre of fuel in the year. Convert that to UK gallons, that would be 6,394. Assuming you get a fairly average 35 mpg, that would mean that you do roughly 223,776 miles a year.

I think you may have left a decimal point out, because the real cost of putting motor tax on to fuel would be more like 22.2 cent.

problemchimp

bryaner wrote: »

Can you read? He is talking about incorporating road tax into fuel prices..

Yes I can read, but you seem to be having trouble. In the original post the op says he is a "road tax dodger" and has only paid about 20% of road tax. I think he should pay his road tax until the law changes. By all means have a debate about future methods of payment but in the meantime I think he should pay up like the rest of us and stop scrounging. Simple enough for you?

bryaner

problemchimp wrote: »

Yes I can read, but you seem to be having trouble. In the original post the op says he is a "road tax dodger" and has only paid about 20% of road tax. I think he should pay his road tax until the law changes. By all means have a debate about future methods of payment but in the meantime I think he should pay up like the rest of us and stop scrounging. Simple enough for you?

Sorry didn't spot that bit.

problemchimp

bryaner wrote: »

Sorry didn't spot that bit.

No worries man.

Satanta

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Not sure where you're getting your sums from. For the government not to lose revenue from you, you would need to buy 29,090 litre of fuel in the year. Convert that to UK gallons, that would be 6,394. Assuming you get a fairly average 35 mpg, that would mean that you do roughly 223,776 miles a year.

I think you may have left a decimal point out, because the real cost of putting motor tax on to fuel would be more like 22.2 cent.

:eek:

The decimal point trap. You are right. Hasty math on my part

Matt Simis

Satanta wrote: »

:eek:

The decimal point trap. You are right. Hasty math on my part

Exactly, to bring it all back to my question on page1, the mileage people do is not "irrelevant" when considering increasing fuel to 1.75 a litre. I simply wouldnt be able to drive to work at that price, it would be cost prohibitive. Yes I wouldnt have to worry about being in tax or not (which I admit Im lax on, but not "20% of it" lax like the OP) but fuel is a real ongoing usage metered cost, tax isnt.

E39MSport

Matt Simis wrote: »

Exactly, to bring it all back to my question on page1, the mileage people do is not "irrelevant" when considering increasing fuel to 1.75 a litre. I simply wouldnt be able to drive to work at that price, it would be cost prohibitive. Yes I wouldnt have to worry about being in tax or not (which I admit Im lax on, but not "20% of it" lax like the OP) but fuel is a real ongoing usage metered cost, tax isnt.

I'll swap ya the Corolla for the S8 then

bigSuzi12

RoverJames wrote: »

Motorists who chose diesel are already being rewarded with the better mpg they get. Diesel will only be getting more expensive as more folks move from petrol to diesel.

Poppycock

Joe 90

Boskowski wrote: »

Wasn't there someone on this forum explaining only a couple of weeks ago that exactly THAT was done in 1978?

Road tax abolished in exchange for increased fuel duties. Administration fee of 5 pound remained cos a car still had to be registered.

5 pound became 10, then 20, then 25. And so on.

In the end we had another 'road tax' AND the increased fuel duties.

Can anyone confirm this story?

Correct Road tax abolished at the same time as domestic rates. Road tax gradually reintroduced.
Instead of domestic rates charges like for rubbish collection gradually introduced. Rates to be reintroduced under the new name of property tax. Bet no other charges are abolished when they are reintroduced.

couldntthink

challengemaster wrote: »

You're not really listening though - because they already have so much tax on petrol, adding more is just stupid...

You're the one not listening. Have another read through the thread and see if you can figure it out. You're already paying road tax. If it goes, then the tax would go on the fuel instead. You'd only be paying more than every other year unless you were doing high milage, driving a guzzler, or weren't paying your road tax in the first place.

Lord Nikon

Abolish the Carbon Tax from fuels, and instead apply a Motoring Levy to the price of a litre of petrol/diesel which all vehicle drivers have to pay.

Commercial vehicle drivers keep reciepts and claim back the tax at the end of the year, which they can only claim back for if they have Tax Clearance Certificates.

1. You eliminate people who drive "commercial" vehicles, that are in no way being used for commercial purposes.

2. Eliminate tax dodgers. They want to dodge tax, they just don't drive.

3. Eliminates the need for staff working in Council buildings that serve as a place to pay your motortax.

4. Eliminates the need for gardai to have motortax checkpoints

5. A fairer system for all those use fuel.

challengemaster

couldntthink wrote: »

You're the one not listening. Have another read through the thread and see if you can figure it out. You're already paying road tax. If it goes, then the tax would go on the fuel instead. You'd only be paying more than every other year unless you were doing high milage, driving a guzzler, or weren't paying your road tax in the first place.

My point is there's already too much fupping tax on fuel in the first place. How is that so hard to understand?

couldntthink

challengemaster wrote: »

My point is there's already too much fupping tax on fuel in the first place. How is that so hard to understand?

And my point is whats the fupping point in having two kinds of tax in order to drive your car. One paid once a year and one paid every time you fill up. If it was all together it would be fairer as people who use the roads most pay the most tax.

challengemaster

No doubt it'd be fairer, but the price of petrol needs to go down not up for the economy to start improving.

couldntthink

problemchimp wrote: »

Pay your road tax like the rest of us and stop scrounging and only then will I believe you should have an opinion

As long as I keep getting away without paying tax I'll do it. I've been caught badly once and had a car taken away, but it was still far cheaper in the long run. Are you telling me if you knew there was a very low chance of getting caught paying road tolls (for example) would you still pay every time? And I'm sure "Mr problemchimp persistently perfect payments" has at one time or another been without tax or fibbed to a gaurd that his car was off the road and gotten a stamp to get a free month here and there. If not, you should. It feels good to get away with it.

My point on incorporating motor tax into fuel would mean scroungers like me would have no option but to pay.

If I promise to pay my road tax tomorrow will you believe I may have an opinion oh righteous one.

PS while I was in the Garda station paying the fine for the above seized car, a lady came in to have a form stamped for back tax. It was about 6 days from the end of the march and she wanted to tax it from the first of march for 3 months. Cop told her she might as well wait til next week and she'd get an extra month. What do you think about that. I wish he had been the one who pulled me over, might have gotten away with it.