Funeral

Lawrence1895

A few hours ago, someone very close to me died of cancer. Well...I was his Care Support Worker for 6 years, but during the time, I became more and more one of his closest friends, even his family member said, i was like a brother to him.

Now I have been chosen to be one of those to carry his coffin.

I'm not sure, how to deal with it. Of course, his wish will be granted by me.

But carrying a coffin? Attending such an important ceremony as an Atheist?

Sorry, I'm quite confused in this very moment

keppler

Lars1916 wrote: »

A few hours ago, someone very close to me died of cancer. Well...I was his Care Support Worker for 6 years, but during the time, I became more and more one of his closest friends, even his family member said, i was like a brother to him.

Now I have been chosen to be one of those to carry his coffin.

I'm not sure, how to deal with it. Of course, his wish will be granted by me.

But carrying a coffin? Attending such an important ceremony as an Atheist?

Sorry, I'm quite confused in this very moment

I had to do the very same at my grandmothers funeral just before christmas........its no big deal really. Im an atheist, most people at the funeral knew I was one but nobody said anything. Why the confusion?

Lawrence1895

keppler wrote: »

I had to do the very same at my grandmothers funeral just before christmas........its no big deal really. Im an atheist, most people at the funeral knew I was one but nobody said anything. Why the confusion?

I would say, most of the confusion is because I never attended a funeral in Ireland. Sorry that I mention it now, but I was born in Germany and things might be different over here.

magicbastarder

surely carrying a coffin has no overt religious symbolism attached?
i have done it before, but before i reached my current stance on religion, and it's something i would look back on with something approaching pride.

Seth Brundle

Sorry about your loss!.
Surely it is more that you have been asked as a close friend to carry out what the deceased wanted rather than what you necessarily want or believe in?

iMax

Sorry for your loss.

I'd have no problem carrying the coffin, even doing a reading. Same for wedding duties.

It's someone else's beliefs, not mine, I'd just be doing it for them, not for any religious reasons.

keppler

Lars1916 wrote: »

I would say, most of the confusion is because I never attended a funeral in Ireland. Sorry that I mention it now, but I was born in Germany and things might be different over here.

I Wouldnt worry about it. There's generally just a bit of chanting at the corpse:rolleyes: just before removal and the rest is carrying. The close family members should explain to you at what stage you will be carrying the coffin.

realdanbreen

I often wonder why atheists get so worked up about religion and religious services. If ye don't believe in the existence of a higher power then whats the big deal?

Lawrence1895

kbannon wrote: »

Sorry about your loss!.
Surely it is more that you have been asked as a close friend to carry out what the deceased wanted rather than what you necessarily want or believe in?

It was the wish of the deceased, no doubt about that.

But one thing jumping in my mind: I don't want to offend anybody (though most of his family knows, I'm an Atheist), so is there any duties, I might have to do apart from carrying the coffin? Something like a speech?

Gregor Samsa

Very sorry for your loss.

I carried my mother's coffin. Even did a reading at her funeral - my father and brother weren't up to it, so I represented the family - I did manage to pick a bible verse that made no mention of god (my Ma was an atheist too, but had a Catholic funeral).

As far as I'm concerned, carrying someone's coffin is a great honour, and has nothing to do with religion of any sort. If you're asked to do a reading, and you're not comfortable with it for any reason, you can politely decline. No one will think less of you for it - speaking at a funeral is not for everyone. You certainly won't be asked to make a speech.

Dr. Loon

Consider it an honour. I carried my Dad's coffin in/out of the church, and that's what I considered it. I did the same for my niece. You won't be expected to do any speeches or anything.

bnt

realdanbreen wrote: »

I often wonder why atheists get so worked up about religion and religious services. If ye don't believe in the existence of a higher power then whats the big deal?

The big deal is about the other people who do have such beliefs. A funeral is not actually for the deceased - who is now completely beyond such worries! - but we pretend it is, for the sake of those who are still here. In my reading of the OP's post, he's not so much worried about the funeral itself as he is about the possibility of offending his friend's family and other friends. But I don't think he needs to be worried - it will all be explained by the organiser, who can answer any questions he has.

A funeral doesn't have to be a religious ceremony. Ancient peoples were solemnising funerals long before there was religion, but this being Ireland, it probably will be Catholic. I don't know exactly what an atheist does in an Irish church in these circumstances - go and sit at the side and watch?

dead one

Lars1916 wrote: »

A few hours ago, someone very close to me died of cancer. Well...I was his Care Support Worker for 6 years, but during the time, I became more and more one of his closest friends, even his family member said, i was like a brother to him.

Now I have been chosen to be one of those to carry his coffin.

I'm not sure, how to deal with it. Of course, his wish will be granted by me.

But carrying a coffin? Attending such an important ceremony as an Atheist?

Sorry, I'm quite confused in this very moment

Death is just beginng my friend. Don't be afraid. Human existence continues after the death of the human body in the form of spiritual and physical resurrection. Next world is totally on faith.

Lars, sorry for your loss.
I don't think there is anything beyond the actual carrying involved. I doubt anyone will mind.

Beruthiel

Lars1916 wrote: »

It was the wish of the deceased, no doubt about that.

Then for him, you should do it. It carries no particular religious significance to do so.

But one thing jumping in my mind: I don't want to offend anybody (though most of his family knows, I'm an Atheist), so is there any duties, I might have to do apart from carrying the coffin? Something like a speech?

No. Unless someone asks you and you can refuse if you are uncomfortable with it.

Condolences on the loss of your friend.

HivemindXX

realdanbreen wrote: »

I often wonder why atheists get so worked up about religion and religious services. If ye don't believe in the existence of a higher power then whats the big deal?

I guess the big deal is that, unlike the characiature of atheists, mosts do not wish to offend those who do have religious beliefs. For example I think I think it would be offensive to take the eucharist as a nonbeliever (I seem to remember this is a fairly major deal). While it wouldn't matter to me, I wouldn't want to upset anyone else.

To the OP, you don't need to worry. The priests at these things are well used to "catholics" who have no clue what to do at a funeral mass either and they will give you direction if needed. With regards to the carrying the coffin there is not much to it and usually the staff from the funeral home will get everything organised and make things as simple as they possibly can.

There's a bunch of ritual involving when to stand and when to kneel. Just copy everyone else.

When people get up for communion just remain in your seat and let people filter past you.

robindch

First off, I'm sorry to hear of your loss - finding good friends is never easy and losing them is doubly so.

Lars1916 wrote: »

But carrying a coffin? Attending such an important ceremony as an Atheist?

Six years back, my granddad died at the age of 99 and being the senior grandson, I was asked to carry the coffin. I wasn't asked to do the prayers in the the middle of the mass, but being an atheist, that's wasn't much of a problem for me

But no, seriously, you're there because of your friendship and the family are clearly respecting this. I think it's quite an honor and while the church bit of the funeral can be a bit of a drag, the fact that you're an atheist is irrelevant: you're there for your friend and your friendship and that's the most important thing by far.

m-a-i-

This might be my own opinion and its of an agnostic persons one, but a funeral is an event that is held for the person whether you would consider it a celebration or a mourning and in the long run I don't think religion has a factor in it. Your celebrating/mourning your friend so I would consider something like carrying the coffin something respectful and caring that you could do for your friend, and it in my opinion has nothing to do with religion ( except for the prayers I guess :S )

I'm so sorry that you lost your friend

seamus

There's no issue attending the ceremony as an atheist or even being involved. From my perspective, death and birth are the only two major things in life that we all share, and they should both be celebrated with dignity and respect, in whatever format the parents or the deceased have chosen.

Neither celebration is a time to protest or be uncomfortable. If the ceremony involved blood sacrifice, then I would find it extremely distasteful, but if I was close enough to the deceased, then I would attend to honour their memory.

In terms of the religious ceremony, there are only two things of religious significance which the "layperson" may be asked to participate in: The readings (Gospel and prayers) and the offering of the gifts. It would not be impolite or disrespectful to quietly decline any request to do these.

Anything else - carrying the coffin, eulogy, sitting in the front row, etc - are not part of the religious ceremony and you would not be showing any disrespect to yourself or the deceased's beliefs if you were to take part.

For funerals in particular as an atheist the easiest thing to do is to place yourself somewhere where you won't be a distraction or a blockage. Standing near the back for the duration of the ceremony is preferred, but if it's a small ceremony then you may have to sit. Just stand when everyone else does and sit forward when they kneel down (so the guy behind you isn't inconvenienced) and you won't get any disapproving tuts or whatever.

Dades

Tough times, Lars1916.

It's not a religious moment. Someone has to carry your friend out of the church. It might as well be the people closet to him.

Lawrence1895

seamus wrote: »

There's no issue attending the ceremony as an atheist or even being involved. From my perspective, death and birth are the only two major things in life that we all share, and they should both be celebrated with dignity and respect, in whatever format the parents or the deceased have chosen.

Neither celebration is a time to protest or be uncomfortable. If the ceremony involved blood sacrifice, then I would find it extremely distasteful, but if I was close enough to the deceased, then I would attend to honour their memory.

In terms of the religious ceremony, there are only two things of religious significance which the "layperson" may be asked to participate in: The readings (Gospel and prayers) and the offering of the gifts. It would not be impolite or disrespectful to quietly decline any request to do these.

Anything else - carrying the coffin, eulogy, sitting in the front row, etc - are not part of the religious ceremony and you would not be showing any disrespect to yourself or the deceased's beliefs if you were to take part.

For funerals in particular as an atheist the easiest thing to do is to place yourself somewhere where you won't be a distraction or a blockage. Standing near the back for the duration of the ceremony is preferred, but if it's a small ceremony then you may have to sit. Just stand when everyone else does and sit forward when they kneel down (so the guy behind you isn't inconvenienced) and you won't get any disapproving tuts or whatever.

The offering of the gifts? I thought, that is only done at a wedding?

Anyway, thanks for all your replies and words of condolence.

The wake will be tomorrow night and the funeral itself will be Saturday at 11. Seems like, a funeral is a 2 day event?

seamus

Lars1916 wrote: »

The offering of the gifts? I thought, that is only done at a wedding?

Sorry, not necessarily gifts. There's some form of offertory, I was at a funeral last week, I'm not sure what they brought up.

The wake will be tomorrow night and the funeral itself will be Saturday at 11. Seems like, a funeral is a 2 day event?

Depends on the individual. Traditionally the person would be "waked" at home for a couple of days before a removal mass takes place (where the body is moved from the home to the church). The full funeral mass then takes place the day following the removal.

In the last twenty/thirty years, the trend was to bring the person straight from the funeral home to the church for the removal, and then the funeral the next day.
But in recent years the church (for whatever reason) has been pushing to avoid the removal mass and it's become more typical now for the deceased to be waked at home for a day or two and then brought straight to the church for the funeral.

Seth Brundle

seamus wrote: »

Sorry, not necessarily gifts. There's some form of offertory, I was at a funeral last week, I'm not sure what they brought up.

Is that when they bring up personal stuff of the deceased (favourite team's shirt, etc.)?

Dades

Someone also brings up the wine and crackers, no?

My cousin and I were fingered for this at my granny's funeral. I had noticed on the way in that the table halfway down the church that was supposed to have the goods laid out on it was bare. At the allotted time my protestations fell on deaf ears as the more senior mourners shooed us out of our pew and up the church to collect the gifts. This was followed by the inevitable, empty-handed, organ-accompanied walk of shame back down the church to the altar where the priest then realised he had the wine and crackers all the time.

I know my grandmother would have laughed, though.

realdanbreen

magicbastarder wrote: »

surely carrying a coffin has no overt religious symbolism attached?
i have done it before, but before i reached my current stance on religion, and it's something i would look back on with something approaching pride.

I find it strange that so many atheists have as you put it a 'stance on religion'
If you don't believe in any form of higher power then why take up a stance or a position on something that is of no consequence or relevence to you.

swampgas

@Lars1916: Commiserations.

I have carried quite a few coffins in my time and have always considered it a honour to do so. My experience has been that priests are quite used to dealing with non-religious people and (in my experience anyway) have never made a fuss about it.

swampgas

realdanbreen wrote: »

I find it strange that so many atheists have as you put it a 'stance on religion'
If you don't believe in any form of higher power then why take up a stance or a position on something that is of no consequence or relevence to you.

Because what I believe to be true is just as important to me as any theist's belief is to him or her. I don't see why I should pretend to believe in God out of a misplaced sense of respect to those who do believe.

But maybe this should be followed up on another thread ...

Gregor Samsa

realdanbreen wrote: »

I find it strange that so many atheists have as you put it a 'stance on religion'
If you don't believe in any form of higher power then why take up a stance or a position on something that is of no consequence or relevence to you.

Religion impacts our daily lives in some very negative ways. Lacking a belief in gods doesn't change that - in fact it makes one more aware of it.

realdanbreen

phutyle wrote: »

Religion impacts our daily lives in some very negative ways. Lacking a belief in gods doesn't change that - in fact it makes one more aware of it.

For those who practice their religion I would suggest it impacts in a positive way and I would also suggest that Paganism impacts in a far more negative way.

Gregor Samsa

realdanbreen wrote: »

For those who practice their religion I would suggest it impacts in a positive way and I would also suggest that Paganism impacts in a far more negative way.

Your claim was that religion has no relevence or consequence to atheists. Maybe read a few of the other threads here in the A&A forum to see discussions to the contrary. As for paganism, I'm not sure what your point is - but it doesn't seem relevant to this thread.

realdanbreen

phutyle wrote: »

Maybe read a few of the other threads here in the A&A forum to see discussions to the contrary. As for paganism, I'm not sure what your point is - but it doesn't seem relevant to this thread.

Next you'll be telling me that theres a world of difference between atheists, agnostics and pagans.

Gregor Samsa

realdanbreen wrote: »

Next you'll be telling me that theres a world of difference between atheists, agnostics and pagans.

No, they're all synonyms. Honestly.

Dades

realdanbreen wrote: »

Next you'll be telling me that theres a world of difference between atheists, agnostics and pagans.

There's plenty of overlap between agnosticism and atheism but do they have anything in common with this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism

Paganism ... is a blanket term, typically used to refer to polytheistic religious traditions.

realdanbreen

Dades wrote: »

There's plenty of overlap between agnosticism and atheism but do they have anything in common with this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism

I find that non-believers tend to get very worked up about religion and religious practices.
If they truly don't believe then they should forget about religion and continue living their lives.

sensibleken

realdanbreen wrote: »

Next you'll be telling me that theres a world of difference between atheists, agnostics and pagans.

If your going to troll do it in a different thread to one offering condolence to someone.

Dades

realdanbreen wrote: »

I find that non-believers tend to get very worked up about religion and religious practices.
If they truly don't believe then they should forget about religion and continue living their lives.

This is the most recent of many such threads. Have a read of it.
If you have any more questions as to why non-believers don't just forget about religion post them in that thread.

That subject in this thread is now closed.

the culture of deference

I dislike the way the Catholic church here still controls funerals. The misery in watching a priest (who doesnt know the dead) spouting platitudes is the way Irish people have been brainwashed into thinking that this is how it always was.

I would much rather my family have a party, i will donating my body to science, or donor list. The whole waking industry here with the body plastered in makeup, then filled with formaldehyde and other poisioness chemicals just so people can stare at a grotesque smiling corpse is wrong.

On a helpful side note

Carry a small pair of socks with you, when you go to lift the coffin roll them in a little ball and stick them on your shoulder under the coffin. The last 3 coffins I carried really smash up your shoulder.

realdanbreen

the culture of deference wrote: »

I dislike the way the Catholic church here still controls funerals. The misery in watching a priest (who doesnt know the dead) spouting platitudes is the way Irish people have been brainwashed into thinking that this is how it always was.

I would much rather my family have a party, i will donating my body to science, or donor list. The whole waking industry here with the body plastered in makeup, then filled with formaldehyde and other poisioness chemicals just so people can stare at a grotesque smiling corpse is wrong.

On a helpful side note

Carry a small pair of socks with you, when you go to lift the coffin roll them in a little ball and stick them on your shoulder under the coffin. The last 3 coffins I carried really smash up your shoulder.

The guy who started this thread wanted to know how he could blend into the ceremony and not be too conspicuous and you want him to start rolling up socks and putting them on his shoulder?

Lawrence1895

realdanbreen wrote: »

The guy who started this thread wanted to know how he could blend into the ceremony and not be too conspicuous and you want him to start rolling up socks and putting them on his shoulder?

The thing with the socks wasn't that bad, so I don't mind

It's more like, I don't want to make balls out of things, as the deceased surely does not deserve something like that.

ShooterSF

Lars1916 wrote: »

It's more like, I don't want to make balls out of things, as the deceased surely does not deserve something like that.

I know that nervousness! I'm a short arse and when I was asked to carry a coffin I was nervous it would tip to my side and I'd fall over! But in the moment all worries just disappear, it's odd. Also the undertakers/funeral directors are really good at what they do and they just set you at ease.
There is no ceremonial bowing or anything before it and even if there was people realise that people are grief stricken and unconcerned with things so it's usually not all that "Catholic".

My Condolences.

Coriolanus

Your religion, or lack of, doesn't come into it. As far as I'm concerned it wouldn't matter if the deceased was Muslim and I was a Hindu, I'd still partake as much as possible in the expected funereal custom.

I carried the coffin at my fathers funeral, attended the mass and didn't feel in the slightest bit a hypocrite.

The entire thing is as much about finding comfort in ceremony as it as about devout religious belief.

Oh, and on an aside about the length, 2 days is normal, my fathers was over three days but that was because we waked him in the house.

spoonface

the culture of deference wrote: »

I dislike the way the Catholic church here still controls funerals. The misery in watching a priest (who doesnt know the dead) spouting platitudes is the way Irish people have been brainwashed into thinking that this is how it always was.

The whole waking industry here with the body plastered in makeup, then filled with formaldehyde and other poisioness chemicals just so people can stare at a grotesque smiling corpse is wrong.

Yeah I went to a funeral last year in England and it was totally obvious and horrible that the priest didn't know my uncle and was hanging on to the few facts that had been given to him about my uncle.

There are other options but you have to look into it e.g. my aunt had her funeral without a priest as memorial service in a non-denominational 'spiritual centre'.

I also hate the open coffin stuff, it's like going to the waxwork museum and you have to say how at peace they looked etc. Better to just keep the box closed I think.

Lawrence1895

First of all, thanks very much to all wishes of condolence and for all the advice.

I the end, I did not need to carry the coffin, because I was given another important role, bringing the gifts to the altar. One of his paintings (as I did the art sessions with him, he was a mouth painting artist and I was an arts therapist in Germany) and his favourite Liverpool jersey, as we both are Liverpool supporters.

A moving ceremony though.

Dades

Glad it worked out. Sounds like a more personal ceremony than most, too.

Lawrence1895

Dades wrote: »

Glad it worked out. Sounds like a more personal ceremony than most, too.

Don't know, if I would call a ceremony with 150 people approx. attending can be called 'personal'

Anyway, since I'm sorted, shall we leave this thread open for further reference? I guess, it might be helpful for others who get into the same situation.

Splendour

the culture of deference wrote: »

I dislike the way the Catholic church here still controls funerals. The misery in watching a priest (who doesnt know the dead) spouting platitudes is the way Irish people have been brainwashed into thinking that this is how it always was.

It is not the fault of the Catholic church that this happens-it is the fault of those who approach them to take the requiem service.