National Hurling league structure proposal

Fentdog84

Ok after burning a small few brain cells i think I got it sorted. Put the top 12 teams into two evenly matched groups of six teams each, thus five games.The top three from each group progress to the knockout stages. 2nd and 3rd in each opposing group play each other in the Quarter finals to meet the 1st place county in the Semi finals. To ensure the other counties get further competitive games, have relagation play offs between the 4th, 5th & 6th place counties in each group i.e 4th in group A plays 5th in group B and the losers meeting the bottom placed teams to decide who gets relagated to division 2. This would ensure a competive league campaign from the 2nd tier counties(Wexfords, Limericks, clares etc) rather than rotting in division 2 or yo-yoing up and down. Thoughts?

The relagation play-offs would be played on a home/away basis to ensure crowds/interest in the games.

Pride Fighter

Sounds like the old system but with just a relegation play off.

I prefer it as it is. It gives the likes of Carlow, Antrim and Laois a chance to improve playing against the likes of Clare/Limerick.

ShamoBuc

'tis fine as it is.

DH2K9

As it says above completely like the old system.

Fentdog84

DH2K9 wrote: »

As it says above completely like the old system.

Not really the old system there was 14 teams in 2 groups of 7 and only the bottom 2 had a relgation play off. There was too many weaker teams like Down, Kerry in it getting hidings who it wasnt helping.

Pride Fighter

Fentdog84 wrote: »

Not really the old system there was 14 teams in 2 groups of 7 and only the bottom 2 had a relgation play off. There was too many weaker teams like Down, Kerry in it getting hidings who it wasnt helping.

You're incorrect, the old system was 2 groups of 6 link here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Hurling_League_2008


You're only difference is extra play offs for the lower down teams.

Fentdog84

Pride Fighter wrote: »

You're incorrect, the old system was 2 groups of 6 link here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Hurling_League_2008


You're only difference is extra play offs for the lower down teams.

I stand corrected Damn thought I had something really original going there. Anyway I do prefer the older system.

KevIRL

Tom Dempsey on the radio today had an interesting idea. Having the top 2 divisions as they do at the moment, but with 2 up, 2 down and also giving the top 2 in div 2 a Quarter final place.

Essentially top 2 in Div 1 = Semi Final spot
3rd in Div 1 plays 2nd in Div 2 in a Quarter Final
4th in Div 2 plays 1st in Div 2 in a Quarter Final

Bottom 2 in Div 1 relegated, Top 2 in Div 2 promoted.

Think this might work, would mean that the teams coming up from Div 2 get at least one competitive game against a Div 1 team before the championship - and a good way for them to guage their competitiveness, also it means all teams in Div 1 and Div 2 would know at the start of the season they have a shot at winning the league title

thunderthing

KevIRL wrote: »

Tom Dempsey on the radio today had an interesting idea. Having the top 2 divisions as they do at the moment, but with 2 up, 2 down and also giving the top 2 in div 2 a Quarter final place.

Essentially top 2 in Div 1 = Semi Final spot
3rd in Div 1 plays 2nd in Div 2 in a Quarter Final
4th in Div 2 plays 1st in Div 2 in a Quarter Final

Bottom 2 in Div 1 relegated, Top 2 in Div 2 promoted.

Think this might work, would mean that the teams coming up from Div 2 get at least one competitive game against a Div 1 team before the championship - and a good way for them to guage their competitiveness, also it means all teams in Div 1 and Div 2 would know at the start of the season they have a shot at winning the league title

That's not a bad idea at all actually.

I think two teams being relegated is a better idea than just one, and I say that even though those rules would mean my county would have got relegated yesterday which would give Division 2 teams like Laois and Antrim a better shot at getting into the top division.

adrian522

I think it would make a mockery of the entire league. I think the best 8 teams should be in division 1 . Under the system above Dublin would have been relegated last year.

This year they are in the league final. I also don't get why teams in division 2 should get a chance to win the league.

I like the current system as it forces teams to treat the league with a bit of respect.

If they don't they could find themselves stuck in division 2 for a few years.
It also gives the mid-ranking division 2 teams the chance of playing against the lower ranking liam mcCarthy teams.

It's not a perfect system but it is the best possible IMO.

Warper

It definitely should be 2 up and 2 down. That rotates things better and gives teams like Antrim a good chance of getting promoted. If Clare dont beat Limerick in the Div 2 final then Clare will be in Div. 2 for 3 seasons straight while teams like Wexford stay in Div 1. There is nothing between Offaly, Clare, Wexford, Limerick and to a lesser extent Antrim so there should be more promoted/relegated.

The Wexican

KevIRL wrote: »

Tom Dempsey on the radio today had an interesting idea. Having the top 2 divisions as they do at the moment, but with 2 up, 2 down and also giving the top 2 in div 2 a Quarter final place.

Essentially top 2 in Div 1 = Semi Final spot
3rd in Div 1 plays 2nd in Div 2 in a Quarter Final
4th in Div 2 plays 1st in Div 2 in a Quarter Final

Bottom 2 in Div 1 relegated, Top 2 in Div 2 promoted.

Think this might work, would mean that the teams coming up from Div 2 get at least one competitive game against a Div 1 team before the championship - and a good way for them to guage their competitiveness, also it means all teams in Div 1 and Div 2 would know at the start of the season they have a shot at winning the league title

This is simpl;y returning the league to the way it was in the 80's up to the mid 90s. Personally I think it is the best format as it means there is something to play for both divisions right up to the final day. I seem to remember Westmeath getting up into Division 1 back in the 80s under that system, in a division 2 that included Tipperary and Wexford. Under the current format there is not a hope that could happen again.

Also I think having a knockout brings some excitement to the league, and brings a bit of a champoinship feel to the games in March/April. The only downside I can see is having to start the league earlier, but I don't think too many people would miss the Walsh Cup?water Crystal.

The football operated in similar way, 4 from division 1, 2 from division 2 and the top tema from 3 & 4, whilst having 2 up and 2 down. Don't know why they started messing with the formats.

kkdela6

Putting 12 teams in division one would destroy the integrity of division one. Division one is for the top teams, the teams that worked so hard and by putting 12 teams in it would basically mean nothing. the way it is now there is so much to work for, sure as the years have shown its nearly always the same teams promoted to division one and relegated to division 2 like a yo yo. there is a reason for this, and by putting 12 teams in the one would just make a mockery.

you saw the result of clare and carlow last week, no offence but imagine how the score would have been if say kilkenny played carlow.

rather than give out about how the league structure is at fault, more effort should be put in to developing division 2 teams to prepare them for division one, up with the big boys like kilkenny, tipp, the deise and galway.

i do however feel that every team should be given the a chance for the munsters and leinsters.

bruschi

kkdela6 wrote: »

Putting 12 teams in division one would destroy the integrity of division one. Division one is for the top teams, the teams that worked so hard and by putting 12 teams in it would basically mean nothing. the way it is now there is so much to work for, sure as the years have shown its nearly always the same teams promoted to division one and relegated to division 2 like a yo yo. there is a reason for this, and by putting 12 teams in the one would just make a mockery.

you saw the result of clare and carlow last week, no offence but imagine how the score would have been if say kilkenny played carlow.

rather than give out about how the league structure is at fault, more effort should be put in to developing division 2 teams to prepare them for division one, up with the big boys like kilkenny, tipp, the deise and galway.

i do however feel that every team should be given the a chance for the munsters and leinsters.

people keep saying how having the likes of Clare or Limerick in Div 2 is good for the likes of Laois and Calrow etc, but what good is it for those sides beating them? What use was it to Clare to hammer Carlow? And Limerick are the only side unbeaten, but yet might not be back in Div 1. Also, Wexfords massive improvement as the league went on shows how stagnent they were by playing Div 2 hurling, and showed improvement in each game they played. had they been relegated, they would have been back in a season of league hurling that is completley meaningless and useless for them.

Next season will see Offaly in the Div 2 final against the losers of this years one. And it will be the same the year after, and the same the year after that. Div 2 is not competetive. it is in the middle part of it, but not the top 2. carlow and laois will get the odd good result, but it wont keep them consistent. either make it back the way it was, or reduce the size of Div 1.

Fentdog84

bruschi wrote: »

people keep saying how having the likes of Clare or Limerick in Div 2 is good for the likes of Laois and Calrow etc, but what good is it for those sides beating them? What use was it to Clare to hammer Carlow? And Limerick are the only side unbeaten, but yet might not be back in Div 1. Also, Wexfords massive improvement as the league went on shows how stagnent they were by playing Div 2 hurling, and showed improvement in each game they played. had they been relegated, they would have been back in a season of league hurling that is completley meaningless and useless for them.

Next season will see Offaly in the Div 2 final against the losers of this years one. And it will be the same the year after, and the same the year after that. Div 2 is not competetive. it is in the middle part of it, but not the top 2. carlow and laois will get the odd good result, but it wont keep them consistent. either make it back the way it was, or reduce the size of Div 1.

Couldnt agree more with this post. Clare, Limerick and Wexford are traditional hurling counties who play for the Liam McCarthy cup. They have won or been in all Irelands at Senior, U-21 and minor in recent years. They should have a right to face top quality oppostion in preparation for the championship rather than against Christy Ring cup teams.

adrian522

Fentdog84 wrote: »

Couldnt agree more with this post. Clare, Limerick and Wexford are traditional hurling counties who play for the Liam McCarthy cup. They have won or been in all Irelands at Senior, U-21 and minor in recent years. They should have a right to face top quality oppostion in preparation for the championship rather than against Christy Ring cup teams.

I completely disagree with this statement. What gives them this right especially when they treat the competition like dirt which is why they got relegated in the first place. Look at how Clare treated the league under Mike Mac and his comments afterwards. If you can't win a single game in division 1 you don't deserve to be there.

Why should the teams that treat the competition with respect that are not traditional counties not have a chance at playing in division 1?

Fentdog84

adrian522 wrote: »

I completely disagree with this statement. What gives them this right especially when they treat the competition like dirt which is why they got relegated in the first place. Look at how Clare treated the league under Mike Mac and his comments afterwards. If you can't win a single game in division 1 you don't deserve to be there.

Why should the teams that treat the competition with respect that are not traditional counties not have a chance at playing in division 1?

Clare were in a period of rebuilding when they got relegated(still are). Limerick had the internal problems last year but fulfilled all the fixtures. Dont see how counties trying out new players/formations is treating the league like dirt, isnt that what the games are for? Preparation for the championship which is the be all and end all. If you go by what you are saying, no county deserves to be in division one.

Im all for the Carlows, Laois, Westmeaths to be given the opportunity to join the leading pack, but only if they are really good enough. And the reality is that they are a long way off that and will be for some time to come.The Clare/Carlow result proved that at the weekend. The first thing they need to do is to start producing successful underage teams. It can be done as seen now with Dublin, and Offaly in the past.

bruschi

Fentdog84 wrote: »

Couldnt agree more with this post. Clare, Limerick and Wexford are traditional hurling counties who play for the Liam McCarthy cup. They have won or been in all Irelands at Senior, U-21 and minor in recent years. They should have a right to face top quality oppostion in preparation for the championship rather than against Christy Ring cup teams.

to be honest, and whilst I understand what you mean, no team has any right to be anywhere they dont deserve. Its up to them to earn the right to play the sides above them. I just think the structure of 8 teams is flawed, as there is very little between sides ranked from 5-10, but there is a huge difference then between sides ranked 10-16.

The Offaly/Wexford relegation issue shows how flawed the system is. Everyone spoke about how this was the relegation decider, as head to head decides placing if on equal points (another point which is wrong about he system, head to head in some case, points difference in others, make it consistent at least). Once Offaly beat Wexford, everyone said that was Wexford gone and Offaly safe. And only for Wexford didnt buy into that, they would be relegated. If there was a 2 down 2 up, Offaly wouldnt have relaxed so much going into their final 2 games, and that meeting between the 2 sides wouldnt have had the same importance it was given this year. Yes, Wexford would be relegated this year, but if condidtions of 2 down are known at the start, then teams wouldnt place as much importance on the 'relegation final' game, and there would be more games to target for wins and more competetiveness.

also, the fact that Limerick have gone the season unbeaten, with a huge scoring tally, but yet they might be stuck in that same division again, giving out the hidings they did this year again, is also flawed. They have shown they are too good for division 2, but yet could very well end up there again next year.

Dublin is another case in point. they finished second last in Division 1 last year. Now they are in the league final. Playing a full season against top sides brought them on. Like I said earlier, you could see the improvement in Wexford once they started to adjust to the pace of Div 1. 2 years stuck in the wilderness of hammering lower ranked sides did nothing for them.

jordainius

The difference in quality from division to division is huge in hurling, and the one up/one down structure only serves to ensure that there is only the minimum of change from year to year, which only serves to widen the gap, under the system that existed up to 1998 (4 divs of 8 teams, 2 up, 2 down) there was a healthy rotation, counties like Westmeath and Laois and Antrim regularly appeared in division 1, and division 2 always contained 2/3 very strong teams which made it a more competitive division and exposed the tier 2 counties to one or two more big games a year than they get now.

Also, there was nothing wrong with the standard of division 2 back then either, the 1996 All-Ireland hurling final was contested by 2 counties who that year had been playing division 2 hurling. In fact, I think they even used a 3 up 3 down system back then for a while!

A strange aspect to the current format is division 3A and 3B- the winner of 3B doesn't go forward to division 3 play offs, has no chance of promotion to division 2 and only goes forward to 3A, why are they not just called division 3 and division 4 as this is essentially what they are- while the current division 4 should be called division 5?

Better structure (based on this seasons standings);
Division 1A
Pos Team Reward/consequence Note
1st Kilkenny D1 home semi-final
2nd Dublin D1 home semi-final -
3rd Waterford D1 away semi final extra play-off place up for grabs
4th Tipperary - mid table teams have more to fight for. An extra play off place but they no longer have the security of only one team going down.
5th Galway - -
6th Cork - -
7th Wexford Relegated to 1B more teams dragged into relegation battle
8th Offaly Relegated to 1B -


Division 1B
Pos Team Reward/consequence Note
1st Limerick D1 away semi-final/promotion to 1A Real reward given to 1st placed team
2nd Clare Promotion to 1A Realistic promotion aspirations for more teams than at present
3rd Laois - -
4th Antrim - mid table teams have more to fight for. An extra promotion place but they no longer have the security of only one team going down.
5th Carlow - -
6th Down - -
7th Kerry Relegated to 2A more teams dragged into relegation battle
8th Westmeath Relegated to 2A -



Division 1 semi finals
Kilkenny -v- Waterford
Dublin -v- Limerick


A similar set up for divisions 2A and 2B but with groups of 6 instead of 8 and the remaining 6/7 counties in division 3. Better all round structure in my opinion.

bruschi

good on ya for trying to propose a logical solution anyway. I would agree with it in part, but I think you could work it as easily with 6 or 7 teams in the top divisions. it would make the second one that bit more competetive with another 'top' side in it and would lessen the very weak sides playing the lower end ones in the top rankings

popebenny16

Fentdog84 wrote: »

Couldnt agree more with this post. Clare, Limerick and Wexford are traditional hurling counties who play for the Liam McCarthy cup. They have won or been in all Irelands at Senior, U-21 and minor in recent years. They should have a right to face top quality oppostion in preparation for the championship rather than against Christy Ring cup teams.

No they dont. No team has a "right" to be in Division one just because they won All Irelands. That is the sort of elitist stance that is wrecking Hulring. Sure, keep it to the traditional teams in division one and never let any of them be relegated and be done with it so.

ebbsy

To be honest its a realistic prospect that Clare,Wexford,Limerick,Offaly etc will not be contesting a final in September for a very long time, so lets not get too worried what division they are playing in. Will playing Cork,Tipp,Kilkenny, really make them better ?

These counties are in major decline, success comes in cycles and its going to be status quo for many years to come.