Can the Poles sort out our prop-forward problems?

jayteecork

So i was walking about town today when it struck me that there's an incredible number of Polish/Eastern Europeans around that fit the classic prop mould - short, stocky, no neck, gigantic arms.

So seeing as these people are here to stay can we see the Polish and their distinctive genetics becoming a factor for Irish rugby down the line?

Bogsnorkler

I remember that Sunday's Well had a load of massive Eastern European players training with them one time. Apparently the were all beyond woeful and afraid of their lives.

Not that that anecdote proves anything.

Tim Robbins

Bogsnorkler wrote: »

I remember that Sunday's Well had a load of massive Eastern European players training with them one time. Apparently the were all beyond woeful and afraid of their lives.

Not that that anecdote proves anything.

I think the IRFU should lauch "get into rugby" programs in July where there is an intensive 2 week program for people who have never played rugby but are interested in giving it a shot.

You are thought the basics of tackling and taking a hit and explained the basics of the rules (whoops the law) and positional play. At the end of the 2 weeks you are put in touch with a club near you. The only pre-requisite would be you have to be a base level of fitness for the program.

That would be a superb way to grow the sport.

phog

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think the IRFU should lauch "get into rugby" programs in July where there is an intensive 2 week program for people who have never played rugby but are interested in giving it a shot.

You are thought the basics of tackling and taking a hit and explained the basics of the rules (whoops the law) and positional play. At the end of the 2 weeks you are put in touch with a club near you. The only pre-requisite would be you have to be a base level of fitness for the program.

That would be a superb way to grow the sport.

Not a bad suggestion at all to try and get more players starting out.

Pity RTE dosent cover the Amlin Cup or TG4 doesn't do english subtitles the more coverage the better for the game

buck65

Are all Poles short stocky and powerful?
Maybe a few Nigerians for the wings, they're fast aren't they?

jayteecork

buck65 wrote: »

Are all Poles short stocky and powerful?
Maybe a few Nigerians for the wings, they're fast aren't they?

lol, worst post I've seen in a while.

You're basically trying to find racism in my topic.

Where on earth did I suggest that "all" poles are built a certain way.

Seriously piss off under whatever rock you crawled out of.

TheRevolution

Problem is most of the Poles that come here are economic migrants and are in their mid 20s to early 30s so probably a bit late for them. However the fruits of the second generation of Poles should definitely be exploited.

Polish genetics do seem to produce the occasional freak of explosive power and yes its true that its not uncommon to see a Pole who doesn't even go to the gym having the physique of John Hayes.

Risteard

More about technique than how they're built. Plenty of Irish amateur props out there that would be built similarly to a lot of the top props, but mightn't have as good a technique.

thebaz

Bogsnorkler wrote: »

I remember that Sunday's Well had a load of massive Eastern European players training with them one time. Apparently the were all beyond woeful and afraid of their lives.

Not that that anecdote proves anything.

the Eastern Eupeans doing security in Dublin, dont strike me as afraid of there lives , most are ex army and afraid of sod all, on the mean streets of Dublin

Downtime

Terenure had a Polish International playing for them a few years ago. He was a flanker but also player hooker and needless to say he was built but he wasn't great.

wicklowdub

Plenty of young "wans" around Dublin on a saturday night have the physic to play prop forward

Sid_Justice

So what's the rational behind this proposition (no pun intended)?

You have a bunch of guys that are big and muscular, therefore they'll make great props?

Have any of these guys run more than 5m in the last 5 years?
Do anyone of them know what rugby is?
Do you think you can coach the intricacies of propping, lineout lifting, rucking and mauling to a guy in his late 20s?

TheRevolution

Sid_Justice wrote: »

So what's the rational behind this proposition (no pun intended)?

You have a bunch of guys that are big and muscular, therefore they'll make great props?

Have any of these guys run more than 5m in the last 5 years?
Do anyone of them know what rugby is?
Do you think you can coach the intricacies of propping, lineout lifting, rucking and mauling to a guy in his late 20s?

I think the rationale is to ensure that the second generation of Polish play rugby rather than soccer. In order to achieve this we should be attempting to set up rugby clubs in Polish areas.

And of course strength genetics will play a huge part in rugby, look out how well the South Islanders do! Polish produce a disportionate amount of strongman athletes so clearly in their genetics they produce a lot of explosive power. We as Irish don't GENERALLY have those sort of people (exceptions being players like O'Brien or Ferris) however in Poland its actually quite common. (sister in law is Polish so I've been there a lot and believe me I know)

Some of the overly PC stuff is nausauting, I really don't see why we have to walk on eggshells, the fact is the physique perfect for rugby is very common amongst Poles in the same way it is very common amongst Southern Islanders. Why shouldn't we be trying to get second generation Poles onto rugby?

The next Cianowski Healovich?

Monty Burnz

buck65 wrote: »

Are all Poles short stocky and powerful?
Maybe a few Nigerians for the wings, they're fast aren't they?

Yeah, and maybe a Jew would be a crafty scrum-half? :rolleyes:

THIS IS ME MAKING FUN OF STEREOTYPES

OP, not having a go at you, I appreciate that you didn't say 'all Poles are X'.

mikedragon32

Poland has a fairly decent league with a couple of divisions.

Stillorgan went over in 2007 and played a game in Krakow (mix of J3/J4 at the time). It was tough (maybe because we were still drunk), but every one of their guys was fit, strong and well drilled. The only area where we had any real advantage was when we set up rolling mauls. But when you factor in that it was a team of pi$$-heads (us) versus a team who were training hard for this game, it's no surprise they came out on top. A decent J2/J1 team would have given them trouble.

The OP seems to be hitting on a stereotype, which doesn't really apply.

brianthebard

Silly OP is silly. There is a culture of strength training in East Europe therefore there are proportionately more guys over there who are jacked than here. That's further compounded by the fact that the population of East Europe dwarfs ours by a bit.
By the op's logic all i need to do is gain another two stone and I should be lining out for Connacht next year. I've never played rugby in my life but hey if I'm the right shape...

almighty1

TheRevolution wrote: »

Heh? Where the hell did you get a picture Mariusz Pudzianowski playing rugby?

Edit : First google of "Polish Rugby" actually shows this pic. Weird.

Sid_Justice

in between his mma career and his strong man career i beleive he was well into his rugby

[Jackass]

It's not tough to find young guys with big build and make them into tanks over a few years training, but technique is king.

It's a coaching issue, not a size issue.

swan82

The lack of props we have in this country comes down to 3 things,prevalent at age grade.

1-Lack of scrummaging culture,we just use it as a method to restart play,we dont have a culture of using it as an attacking weapon.

2-Underage scrummaging is ref'd differently for safety reasons and this is probably the single biggest reason.(our resident ref's could give the exact explanation of underage scrummaging rules)

3-We tend to pick the biggest guys to play props,when infact we should probably be loooking at tightheads under or around 6 foot.As an example it serves France well and ensures the loosehead cannot get underneath easily.

Instead of say a Domingo who is a loosehead at 5'8 we have healy 6'1 but loosehead is not a huge problem for us,its tighthead.

Nicholas Mas is 5'11 at tighthead but for years we used hayes and buckley both of who are around 6'4 -6'5 who got monstered by small looseheads who could get underneath them.

This isnt always the case,Carl Hayman was very tall but he seemed to be the exception.

Because we pick monsterous guys at underage level they dont bother with technique and use their power and when they make the step up their power scrummaging doesnt work.

PhatPiggins

brianthebard wrote: »

Silly OP is silly. There is a culture of strength training in East Europe therefore there are proportionately more guys over there who are jacked than here. That's further compounded by the fact that the population of East Europe dwarfs ours by a bit.
By the op's logic all i need to do is gain another two stone and I should be lining out for Connacht next year. I've never played rugby in my life but hey if I'm the right shape...

:pac:

d'Oracle

swan82 wrote: »

The lack of props we have in this country comes down to 3 things,prevalent at age grade.

1-Lack of scrummaging culture,we just use it as a method to restart play,we dont have a culture of using it as an attacking weapon.

I'm sorry?

Where did this come out of?
Rugby didn't start in 2005, y'know.

There was a time, not too long ago either, when we had one of the strongest scrums in world rugby.
It was basically the only attacking weapon we had.

We have a long history of bloody great props.
You can't just look at the last 8 years and call it a "culture".

I'd also like proof for 2 and I'm not getting started on 3.

jolley123

I don't really see prop as an issue. There are some talented props coming through like:
Paddy McAllister(Ulster)
Stewart Maguire(Connacht)
Martin Moore(Leinster)
Edward Byrne(Leinster)

And to add to that, we already have Healy who is 24, plus Hagan who's the same age will improve in Leinster. Ross and company will hold down the fort until these young guys are ready to make the step up.

TheRevolution

brianthebard wrote: »

Silly OP is silly. There is a culture of strength training in East Europe therefore there are proportionately more guys over there who are jacked than here. That's further compounded by the fact that the population of East Europe dwarfs ours by a bit.
By the op's logic all i need to do is gain another two stone and I should be lining out for Connacht next year. I've never played rugby in my life but hey if I'm the right shape...

Thats really not what hes saying of course it wouldn't be possible to just throw a mid 20s huge Polish lad onto a rugby field and to expect results. I think what hes saying though is that we should be trying to get younger Polish into playing rugby early to make use of their genetics. Physique plays a massive role in rugby and its stupid to say otherwise. If what you were saying was correct and strength and size didn't play a massive role then we wouldn't see such a huge and disportionate amount of South islanders lining up for teams all around the world. We have a huge untapped resource of a population that are probably more powerful and stronger than South Islanders who could be playing rugby.

The fact is the slavic people are infinitely more stronger than other peoples and are considered to be the most powerful of any race. Theres a reason WHY Poland has a culture of strongman. Whilst someone as powerful as Sean O'Brien is the rare exception in Ireland, amongst Polish it is quite common. Who knows how many potential Sean O'Briens there are amongst the huge numbers of Polish that could emerge if they get training young and make use of the slavic genes.

d'Oracle

TheRevolution wrote: »

The fact is the slavic people are infinitely more stronger than other peoples and are considered to be the most powerful of any race. .

That is a fact, is it?

brianthebard

TheRevolution wrote: »

Thats really not what hes saying of course it wouldn't be possible to just throw a mid 20s huge Polish lad onto a rugby field and to expect results. I think what hes saying though is that we should be trying to get younger Polish into playing rugby early to make use of their genetics. Physique plays a massive role in rugby and its stupid to say otherwise. If what you were saying was correct and strength and size didn't play a massive role then we wouldn't see such a huge and disportionate amount of South islanders lining up for teams all around the world. We have a huge untapped resource of a population that are probably more powerful and stronger than South Islanders who could be playing rugby.

I've already pointed out by the op's logic that I have the genetics to be a super duper prop.

The fact is the slavic people are infinitely more stronger than other peoples and are considered to be the most powerful of any race. Theres a reason WHY Poland has a culture of strongman.

infinitely more stronger? Even leaving aside your grammar that's a woefully inaccurate statement. You've put the cart before the horse in a massive way by saying because they have the genetics they are good at strongman. You've been presented with a history of big Irish props, we can see in the Irish provinces and international squad Irish guys with the 'genetics' to be great props.
This quasi-eugenicist bull**** gets my goat, I doubt anyone posting on this thread has a detailed understanding of how genetics work. We do not need to specially breed Poles to create great props we need to specially train any youngster who looks interested in being a prop, and the mass will take care of itself on a good diet and strength training regime.


Also, to prove that the Poles do not have a monopoly on strength sports, Irish athletes have won many olympic medals in the shot putt and weightlifting and other strength sports, but it has been done under the English flag because there hasn't ever been the support or money to put together a coherent squad for Ireland. So we are every bit as 'genetically' predisposed to be big necked props as the Poles the op and yourself revere.

TheRevolution

I think people are getting overly offended at what are facts. African's tend to be a lot faster than Irish because of their muscle fibres and yes Slavic people tend to be stronger. Look at the past Olympic medalists for weight lifting, fact is its completely dominated by Slavics.

Brianthebard, once again the point is that if we COMBINED technique with the incredible strength that slavs have in their genes at a young age then we could have some great players coming through in problem positions.

People have been saying for years how desperate we are for more Africans to start playing rugby because we lack out and out fast wingers. Why suddently the issue with Slavics and their explosive power for the front row out of interest?

Monty Burnz

TheRevolution wrote: »

I think people are getting overly offended at what are facts. African's tend to be a lot faster than Irish because of their muscle fibres and yes Slavic people tend to be stronger. Look at the past Olympic medalists for weight lifting, fact is its completely dominated by Slavics.

I'm sorry, that's bull. By the same logic, Scandinavians have superior genetics for skiing, as they tend to win so many medals at the Olympics in skiing disciplines.

There is a tradition/culture of powerlifting etc. in former Soviet block countries because this was an area that was pushed by Soviet governments during the Cold War. It was pretty simple to dope their athletes to the gills and win everything going. They presumably aren't pushed into it any more by their governments but the culture of powerlifting etc. is well-established now.

brianthebard

TheRevolution wrote: »

Brianthebard, once again the point is that if we COMBINED technique with the incredible strength that slavs have in their genes at a young age then we could have some great players coming through in problem positions.

People have been saying for years how desperate we are for more Africans to start playing rugby because we lack out and out fast wingers. Why suddently the issue with Slavics and their explosive power for the front row out of interest?

I've no problem with slavs, I have a problem with people who have no idea about genetics talking about them as the be all and end all. There is no 'incredible slavic strength gene', and you've already been shown that there are great Irish props with what I'm guessing are regular old Irish genes. Breeding plans are best left to livestock.

TheRevolution

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm sorry, that's bull. By the same logic, Scandinavians have superior genetics for skiing, as they tend to win so many medals at the Olympics in skiing disciplines.

There is a tradition/culture of powerlifting etc. in former Soviet block countries because this was an area that was pushed by Soviet governments during the Cold War. It was pretty simple to dope their athletes to the gills and win everything going. They presumably aren't pushed into it any more by their governments but the culture of powerlifting etc. is well-established now.

It's really not. Western Africans tend to be the best at sprinting, East Africans tend to be the best at long distance running and yes Slavic and Nordic people tend to make the best strength athletes. It to do with muscle fibres and DNA.

Basketball, Ice Hockey, Figure Skating, gymnastics were all pushed well ahead of weight lifting but they came out particularly on top of weightlifting.

TheRevolution

brianthebard wrote: »

I've no problem with slavs, I have a problem with people who have no idea about genetics talking about them as the be all and end all. There is no 'incredible slavic strength gene', and you've already been shown that there are great Irish props with what I'm guessing are regular old Irish genes. Breeding plans are best left to livestock.

Alrite, I'll tell you what, when was the last time a caucasian won the 100metre sprint in the olympics? Yeah... I'm sure genetics don't play a massive role :rolleyes:

PhatPiggins

brianthebard wrote: »

I've no problem with slavs, I have a problem with people who have no idea about genetics talking about them as the be all and end all. There is no 'incredible slavic strength gene', and you've already been shown that there are great Irish props with what I'm guessing are regular old Irish genes. Breeding plans are best left to livestock.

And this PC nonsense is best left to another forum

TheRevolution

Heres another one for you.

Why do Georgia in particular produce such good props?

almighty1

Skiing is more about dexterity and timing, hardly going to be influened by genetics. I have to agree with revolution that genetics and/or location (e.g. climate, atmosphere, diet etc) influence greatly upon the sporting ability on a certain race.

Why do all the best sprinters come from the Caribbean?
Why do all the best long distance runners come from Africa?
Why do all the best gymnasts come from the Far East?

You can argue that its their most popular sport but many would argue that genetics can play a bit part.

brianthebard

PhatPiggins wrote: »

And this PC nonsense is best left to another forum

What PC nonsense? The ability to see bull**** for what it is? The ability to realise that no one here knows **** about genetics?

TheRevolution

brianthebard wrote: »

What PC nonsense? The ability to see bull**** for what it is? The ability to realise that no one here knows **** about genetics?

Why do you think that all the 100 metre sprinters are African? Because sprinting is more popular there is it?

almighty1

brianthebard wrote: »

What PC nonsense? The ability to see bull**** for what it is? The ability to realise that no one here knows **** about genetics?

If the Dutch are generally known as being tall, the Chinese as being small and the Samoans as being big/strong. Is the root cause of this genetics?

brianthebard

almighty1 wrote: »

If the Dutch are generally known as being tall, the Chinese as being small and the Samoans as being big/strong. Is the root cause of this genetics?

No! The Chinese as a nation have been growing an inch a decade because of improvements in diet. The US used to be the tallest society but are no longer because diet and exercise has actually declined. South Islanders value the attributes of being big and strong and feed and train to become so! You and others here seem to have no idea what effect material, economic and cultural factors have on all of these stereotypes (and lets not forget they are stereotypes they are not truths).

swan82

brianthebard wrote: »

No! The Chinese as a nation have been growing an inch a decade because of improvements in diet. The US used to be the tallest society but are no longer because diet and exercise has actually declined. South Islanders value the attributes of being big and strong and feed and train to become so! You and others here seem to have no idea what effect material, economic and cultural factors have on all of these stereotypes (and lets not forget they are stereotypes they are not truths).

I will have to disagree with you on polynesians,they are genetically beigger than caucasians and Africans.You can not train to be naturally big which they are.

An easy example is in NZ where they had to change the underage grades to be done by weight and not age because at underage level polynesians are so much bigger.
It is common to have a 12-14 year old polynesian playing with18/19 year old caucasians and as adults they are also naturally bigger.

They are by in large physically bigger than any other race.

TheRevolution

Why is it that African Americans can win the 100metres living under the same material, economic and cultural factors as Caucasian Americans but caucasian Americans can't?

TheRevolution

swan82 wrote: »

I will have to disagree with you on polynesians,they are genetically beigger than caucasians and Africans.You can not train to be naturally big which they are.

An easy example is in NZ where they had to change the underage grades to be done by weight and not age because at underage level polynesians are so much bigger.
It is common to have a 12-14 year old polynesian playing with18/19 year old caucasians.

They are by in large physically bigger than any other race.

This is true. There was an article about NZ taking their kids out of playing rugby in the schools because even at U13s some of the polynesians were the size of adults and they were so afraid of their kids getting injured.

almighty1

brianthebard wrote: »

No! The Chinese as a nation have been growing an inch a decade because of improvements in diet. The US used to be the tallest society but are no longer because diet and exercise has actually declined. South Islanders value the attributes of being big and strong and feed and train to become so! You and others here seem to have no idea what effect material, economic and cultural factors have on all of these stereotypes (and lets not forget they are stereotypes they are not truths).

Your still talking genetics my good man. Does everybody in China grows an extra inch every year because of their diet? :rolleyes: Maybe I'll eat a few extra greens and be 6'2 in 20 year time.

Or does the changes in the diet of their parents pass down to them? e.g. genetics

profitius

TheRevolution wrote: »

I think people are getting overly offended at what are facts. African's tend to be a lot faster than Irish because of their muscle fibres and yes Slavic people tend to be stronger. Look at the past Olympic medalists for weight lifting, fact is its completely dominated by Slavics.

Brianthebard, once again the point is that if we COMBINED technique with the incredible strength that slavs have in their genes at a young age then we could have some great players coming through in problem positions.

People have been saying for years how desperate we are for more Africans to start playing rugby because we lack out and out fast wingers. Why suddently the issue with Slavics and their explosive power for the front row out of interest?

Your problem is you're not going by any facts but by your own view of the world.

Irish people are among the strongest in the world. As has been already mentioned we're best at strength sports and I even heard somebody talking about it on the radio before that thats where Ireland should be targetting success at the olympics because we've a proven track record as good as any country.

Europeans are a blend of differnt types of Whites. The early Europeans were Cro-magnons. They were very powerful and would make great props. Eventually they were joined by more slender races and intermixed.

Ireland is very much Cro-magnon build compared to the rest of the continent. Draw a line from Ireland to the Baltic countries and you have the strongest people in Europe coming from around there.

Ireland now suffers from obesity greatly. Generally its stocky/strongly built people who have most problems with this (generally) and also diet plays a part. This is because of the Irish genetics.

Irish people were always known to be good fighters. It takes skill too but generally go abroad and Irish are known to be tough.

Also the people who say Polish men are bigger are the same who say Polish women are smaller than Irish women. Sexual dimorphism is great among Irish people too so it makes no sense to say Irish men are smaller than Poles and Irish women bigger than Poles.

The average Irish person is stronger than the average Polish person and I'd bet on it any day of the week. The large percentage of Polish builders in Ireland over the last few years would indeed be stronger than the average Irish male for obvious reasons. I think that is where you are getting confused.

d'Oracle

TheRevolution wrote: »

I think people are getting overly offended at what are facts.

Nobody is getting offended.

What you are saying isn't facts.
Its just unverifiable nonsense.
This is the problem Brian has with your comments.

You are basically forming an opinion on something, based on stereotypes and then saying it is a fact.

Your 100m example doesn't stand up either.
Because you can't possibly define slavics nor can you find a single event which is clearly dominated by slavics as short sprints are by people of african extraction.

Whats more, the reasons for africans dominating sprint sports are actually more to do with what you seem to think it is the genetic advantage of slavics have than anything that can be or have been observed in slavics.



almighty1:

Your three examples:

1: They don't, the Jamaicans have a particularly strong team at the moment due to excellent training systems and coaching, still though, the americans are still very strong. While there is at least some evidence that west africans have a genetic advantage of sorts, to say carribean is just silly, most of the carribean sprinters, (a fair few jamaicans too) are products of American collegiate athletics

2: This is genetic in part, but more due to environment and training again.
But the genetic element is obvious, i.e. you can see the people have long legs, high broad chests and yet weight bugger all.

3: They aren't. Aside from the fact that its just not for the most part true, its all down to training strategies. Find the most promising young athletes and train the beejeesus out of them. The Americans do it too. Which is why they are also very successful.

brianthebard

swan82 wrote: »

I will have to disagree with you on polynesians,they are genetically beigger than caucasians and Africans.You can not train to be naturally big which they are.

If you say so...

They are by in large physically bigger than any other race.

massive generalisation.

TheRevolution wrote: »

Why is it that African Americans can win the 100metres living under the same material, economic and cultural factors as Caucasian Americans but caucasian Americans can't?

Firstly its people from the Caribbean that are winning the 100metres, and clearly they don't live in the same material economic or cultural conditions as Causasian Americans.

Monty Burnz

almighty1 wrote: »

If the Dutch are generally known as being tall, the Chinese as being small and the Samoans as being big/strong. Is the root cause of this genetics?

The Chinese are not small.

profitius

TheRevolution wrote: »

Heres another one for you.

Why do Georgia in particular produce such good props?

Because in Georgia you'll find that wrestling is a very big sport there and thats what props do to a large degree.

brianthebard

almighty1 wrote: »

Your still talking genetics my good man. Does everybody in China grows an extra inch every year because of their diet? :rolleyes: Maybe I'll eat a few extra greens and be 6'2 in 20 year time.

Or does the changes in the diet of their parents pass down to them? e.g. genetics

Firstly I said decade not year, if you don't know the difference please stop participating in this thread. Secondly it is clearly not genetics because you stated they are smaller genetically and I have shown that improvements in diet have affected growth irrespective of genetics. Changes in genetics do not happen that quickly.

Monty Burnz

almighty1 wrote: »

Your still talking genetics my good man. Does everybody in China grows an extra inch every year because of their diet? :rolleyes: Maybe I'll eat a few extra greens and be 6'2 in 20 year time.

Or does the changes in the diet of their parents pass down to them? e.g. genetics

What??

They are eating more protein now - they are (on average) bigger because their diet is more protein-rich than their parents. This has nothing to do with genetics.

d'Oracle

almighty1 wrote: »

Your still talking genetics my good man. Does everybody in China grows an extra inch every year because of their diet? :rolleyes: Maybe I'll eat a few extra greens and be 6'2 in 20 year time.

Strawman.

d'Oracle

TheRevolution wrote: »

Heres another one for you.

Why do Georgia in particular produce such good props?

Why does Ireland produce such good props?
Why does England produce such good props?
Why does New Zealand produce good props?