Training Pace

troy

I am training for a sub 3:30 marathon and I am wondering what pace I should be training at.

Currently I am doing shorter runs 4-7m in the mornings midweek and longer runs on the weekend 8-20m (depending on where I am in my schedule).

I am aiming for an average pace of around 7:50/mile in the marathon.

Currently my average paces are roughly:

4m 7:15
5m 7:20
6m 7:25
7m 7:30
8-12m 7:50
12m+ 7:55

Also on some of the midweek runs I do some interval training (5 x 1min hard, 1min easy).

Should I be running by shorter distances at that pace or should I always be around race pace?

Any other advice?

Thanks

Krusty_Clown

If you use McMillan's running calculator, it gives you suggested training paces for various types of training run based on your target pace.

Gringo78

Further to KC's paces from McMillan above, a typical beginners marathon program wouldn't have you exceeding marathon pace more than 3 times a week.

Where have you picked the target of sub 3:30 from? At your training paces I'd guess you could go faster or else you're seriously overtaining which will end in injury. A recent 5k or 10k or HM time would tell more. I've a marathon pace of around 6:30 pace per mile and wouldn't go faster than 7:30 pace on 3 or 4 of my runs each week.

ThePiedPiper

I'd agree with both of the above posters here. I'd say you're either over-stretching yourself in your training or else you're under-estimating your marathon goal time.

I did a quick analysis of my Garmin data there to see how much quicker/slower on average I go as against how I performed in my last marathon.

Of 67 training sessions and 3 races, 70 sessions overall, only 12 training sessions were faster than my average marathon pace, so approximately 1 in 7.

A few years ago, I used to try and get in at least a couple of 20 mile runs and a good few 10-15 milers at planned marathon pace. This is not the perceived wisdom and is something I no longer do. My toughest long run prior to my last marathon consisted of the following:

7 miles at PMP + 30 seconds
12 miles at PMP
1 mile at PMP + 60 seconds.

What is your perceived effort on these runs? Is it constant effort for the entire distance or is there warm up and cool down miles at the start and end of them?

ger664

You should train at paces within your scope rather then picking trainig paces based on a goal you want to achieve, I would love to do a sub 3:30 marathon myself and its is my goal for this year but my current 10mile race pace is 7:45/mile so I have to set my paces accordingly to a 3:35 - 3:40 marathon. My hope is that I will improve with training so that I will get a 3:30 on race day.

It is unclear what type of effort you are at for the given paces but your most recent 10K or better race time would be a lot more helpful to determine your training paces. Feed that info into the link given by Krusty to obtain your paces you should train at.

troy

Thanks for the replies. I did the Dublin Marathon (first marathon) in 3:44 last year. I found it comfortable to do at that pace and I decided to try to run another one but at a better time.

My races from last year were:

09/05/2010 Half 01:44:50
21/08/2010 10m 01:18:42
18/09/2010 Half 01:38:41
25/10/2010 Full 03:43:53

I think I am probably pushing it a bit too much on the training runs. I am running at a pretty constant pace, no warm up cool down miles really. I think because I have my Garmin and I am timing it I am probably racing myself on every run.

ger664

Based on that half marathon time and if you have kept training after dublin a 3:30 is within your range so I would go with the paces/times krusty posted.

Clearlier

Troy,

Yes, you're going way too fast in your training runs. It sounds like you're running almost as fast as you can for every run... There needs to be a purpose to every run that you do. Recovery runs help your low level aerobic fitness while taking very little from you, Lactate threshold runs raise your lactate threshold making it easier to run faster. Long and medium long runs boost your endurance. Strides help with your leg turnover. Intervals improve your VO2 Max. Hills improve strength and neuromuscular co-ordination (Kenyan hills doubly so).

I suspect that you'll be an awful lot more successful if you follow a Pfitzinger and Daniels or a Daniels plan. They both have books out and it's worth buying one or other of them to understand the purpose behind different runs.

outforarun

Hi Troy, I'm also training for a sub 3:30 marathon. Every so often i wonder if I'm running my training runs too fast, i think I'm right at the edge of too fast. But man my paces are no way near as fast as yours.

I run two easy runs midweek these started as 3 milers and are now (week 11 of 18 weeks) up to 5 milers, I run these at 8:35 pace.

Also midweek, up to week 10, I ran a third session with some tempo miles at at least 7:30 pace. I'd run say 7 miles with 3 at 7:30. I enjoyed these but found that they were affecting my PMP performance on Saturdays, so now I've decided to run them every second week and just concentrate on mileage on the non-tempo weeks.

My Saturday PMP is 7:45 pace. This is 15" faster than the pace I hope to run on race day. This is a psychological thing, gaining comfort from the fact that if I can get relatively comfortable running at 7:45 then in theory running at 8:00 will feel easier on race day.

My LSRs are run at 8:45 pace.

I've a spreadsheet against which I track my target v actual pace and rate runs as successful or not according to how close to target pace I get. I have a tolerance built in that allows me more scope to run my slow runs on the slow side of target and my fast runs on the fast side of target.

My advice, slow down, a lot.

troy

I think it is pretty clear I have my training arse ways. I am going to re-adjust based on the advice and come up with a better plan.

Thanks.

Krusty_Clown

Are you following a predefined plan Troy, or making it up as you go along? You might benefit greatly from a structured plan, like those in Pfiztinger and Douglas' Advanced Marathoning book. There are alternative programs too, but personally I've had great success with P&D (3:25 down to 2:48).

zico10

troy wrote: »

Any other advice?

Go metric!

AntiVirus

troy wrote: »

I think because I have my Garmin and I am timing it I am probably racing myself on every run.

This is exactly what happened when I got my Garmin. I even found when I tried running using the virtual partner that I had to beat him too! :pac:

Itziger

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Are you following a predefined plan Troy, or making it up as you go along? You might benefit greatly from a structured plan, like those in Pfiztinger and Douglas' Advanced Marathoning book. There are alternative programs too, but personally I've had great success with P&D (3:25 down to 2:48).

That's nice improvement Krusty. I've just gone and ordered the book now. Did you stick really closely to a plan or were you "flexible"?

I think I'd find it hard to follow a rigid plan to the letter. Work and family don't always allow for that either.

altercor

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Are you following a predefined plan Troy, or making it up as you go along? You might benefit greatly from a structured plan, like those in Pfiztinger and Douglas' Advanced Marathoning book. There are alternative programs too, but personally I've had great success with P&D (3:25 down to 2:48).

KC, what program did you follow in Advance Marathoning?? I am about a 3:18 and am dying top get under the 3 in Cologne (October this year)

Clearlier

altercor wrote: »

KC, what program did you follow in Advance Marathoning?? I am about a 3:18 and am dying top get under the 3 in Cologne (October this year)

Altercor - The biggest determinants of success are the number of miles you've run and the pace that you've run them at. It's also worth noting that for the first few years that you run you'll naturally get quicker on similar training although obviously not as quickly as if you also increase your training load.

In terms of P&D so long as you follow any of the plans faithfully you'll have a decent shot at breaking 3. I've never heard of anybody completing the 18 week 55-70 plan without breaking 3 (although I'm sure there must be). A clubmate came pretty close with 2:59:57 but he got there! I have heard of plenty of people going under 3 with the 18 week up to 55 plan as well. You do have to be ready to do it though.

Krusty_Clown

Itziger wrote: »

That's nice improvement Krusty. I've just gone and ordered the book now. Did you stick really closely to a plan or were you "flexible"?

I think I'd find it hard to follow a rigid plan to the letter. Work and family don't always allow for that either.

Yeah, I stuck to the plan to the letter (worked around work and family commitments). Followed the 12 week 55mpw program twice, and did a hybrid of the 12 week 55-70mpw plan for the most recent marathon.

Others have had great success with Daniels Running formula, and running with a club is another option.

Itziger

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Yeah, I stuck to the plan to the letter (worked around work and family commitments). Followed the 12 week 55mpw program twice, and did a hybrid of the 12 week 55-70mpw plan for the most recent marathon.

Others have had great success with Daniels Running formula, and running with a club is another option.

I'm thinking of an autumn marathon (October) for my second after a fairly traumatic first. Was hoping for 3.10 and blew up with 6 or so Kms to go. I might be better with early morning training in Summer months. Am going to go a bit more conservative second time round. Somewhere between 3.15 and 3.20 would be nice.

troy

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Are you following a predefined plan Troy, or making it up as you go along? You might benefit greatly from a structured plan, like those in Pfiztinger and Douglas' Advanced Marathoning book. There are alternative programs too, but personally I've had great success with P&D (3:25 down to 2:48).

I was following a plan that was purely just schedule of miles, nothing about pace. I have started using this sub 3:30 plan from Runners World (http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/racing/rws-garmin-ready-marathon-schedule-sub-330/2764.html). I have downloaded the workout schedule and uploaded it to my Garmin. Since I was so obsessed with the Garmin before I think this setup is good because the Garmin is now telling me to slow down when I should .

I have seen lots of recommendations for the P&D book and I think if I want to step it up another notch I'll look at that.

Last three runs have been a bit different!!

Desc|Date&Time|Miles|Time|Pace
Dublin Slow 13m|Sun, 17 Apr 2011 10:58|13|01:51:29|08:34
Dublin Easy 5m|Sat, 16 Apr 2011 7:44|5|00:44:20|08:52
Dublin 14/04/2011|Thu, 14 Apr 2011 6:46|5.17|00:43:21|08:22

ronnie085

Just got this emailed to me from runners world, just a few basic common sense tips to know when your pushing to hard at interval training

nerraw1111

In terms of the Dublin City marathon in October. When you should decide your race target and therefore training pace?

I'm contemplating DCM 11 but only if I'm able to do it in around 3.15. No desire to be running longer than that after my one and only marathon in 09.

Is there a set distance you should be running in a certain time say by July in order to have a chance of your target time?

RayCun

It will never be 100% accurate, but the McMillan calculator is a good guide. If your race performances all have a marathon equivalent of around 3.15, that's a good sign that you can start a marathon training programme with a 3.15 target time.

Or take your half marathon time, double it and add 10%. So, just under 90 minutes?

meathcountysec

nerraw1111 wrote: »

When you should decide your race target and therefore training pace?

Your training pace should be determined by your current level of fitness not by a time you hope to achieve. Use a recent race time fed into macmillan to give you a spread of pace for various sessions.

Any other (faster) pace is only inviting injury

nerraw1111

Thanks for the replies. Will run a standard distance in next few weeks and take it from there.