Cycling 2 abreast?

maxim

New to this, so please move as appropriate!
Was driving from Ballyvourney to Macroom on Sunday. For those who don't know the area, although the road is the main N22, many stretches of it are just 2 lanes wide(1 on each diection), often with a solid white line down the centre as it is not 'one of the best roads'! We joined a queue of about 15 cars & 2 coaches. When we came to the 'obtruction' it turned out to be 6 cyclists, 4 of them cycling 2 abreast, making it very difficult and dangerous to try to overtake them. Just wondering what the official guidelines are for this - as someone said, surely they are not operating with due care and thought for other road users?

DirkVoodoo

What would you have done if it was a tractor or another slow moving vehicle?

Approximately how long were you delayed or are you still out there?

Would cycling in a line of 12 riders long have made it safer to overtake? If there was that much of a backlog of traffic then I can only imagine that there was not sufficient room or visibility to overtake, so moving into a single line would have created the risk for the cyclists of you (or any other motorist) attempting a dangerous overtaking maneuver and possibly swerving into the cyclists to avoid an oncoming vehicle.

daymobrew

Cyclists are not permitted to cycle more than two abreast so what you came across was not breaking the law.

DirkVoodoo explains why cycling in a single file can be more dangerous to the cyclists and motorists. Cyclists are encouraged to "take the lane" so that motorists overtake with care and don't try to squeeze past a cyclist even when a vehicle is approaching. In such a situation if the cyclist has to swerve out to avoid a pothole or the motorist swerves in to avoid the oncoming vehicle you have a serious accident with the cyclist coming out worst.

DirkVoodoo

Is this the road in question? With the solid white line and warning sings about dangerous bends? Where were you hoping to overtake the cyclists? How would going single file have made this safer for them (aside from being convenient for you)?

spokeydokey

The 2 lads on the back must of been swingin'

goldencleric

^boom next question please cyclists breaking red lights etc..

Cookie_Monster

6 single file on that road would be grand to overtake.

or given the build-up of traffic some courtesy from the cyclists and moving over to let a few by like at the drive there wouldn't go amiss same way tractors frequently do. As a cyclist I'd feel better with less traffic behind me too, people get impatient and stupid if stuck behind for too long.

DirkVoodoo

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

6 single file on that road would be grand to overtake.

or given the build-up of traffic some courtesy from the cyclists and moving over to let a few by like at the drive there wouldn't go amiss same way tractors frequently do. As a cyclist I'd feel better with less traffic behind me too, people get impatient and stupid if stuck behind for too long.

Given the length of road between bends, I would find it easier to overtake a bunch 2 abreast.

If you read the OP, the fact there is a 'solid white' line is mentioned, which leads me to believe that the OP may have attempted to overtake the cyclists without crossing the white line (cuz that would be crazy!). Look at google street view and see how much room cars have on that road, there is no way you could safely overtake even a lone cyclist while staying within the white line.

My courtesy does not extend past self preservation.

EDIT: And still no word about how long it took the 15 cars and 2 coaches to overtake this ill-mannered group? What percentage of the journey was spent stuck behind them? It's the "move in and get out of my way" attitude that irks me here.

spokeydokey

That road is very twisty leaving Ballyvourney. There'd be no way to safely overtake even single file cyclists on it. The later part of the road approaching Macroom is straight and wide and I'd presume that's how the 15 cars and 2 coaches got by.
Btw, I'd bet my life that the cyclists then overtook the same traffic in the often gridlocked town of Macroom , if they went that direction.

Mountjoy Mugger

daymobrew wrote: »

Cyclists are not permitted to cycle more than two abreast so what you came across was not breaking the law.

DirkVoodoo explains why cycling in a single file can be more dangerous to the cyclists and motorists. Cyclists are encouraged to "take the lane" so that motorists overtake with care and don't try to squeeze past a cyclist even when a vehicle is approaching. In such a situation if the cyclist has to swerve out to avoid a pothole or the motorist swerves in to avoid the oncoming vehicle you have a serious accident with the cyclist coming out worst.

According to the ROTR

Do cycle in single file if cycling beside another person would endanger, inconvenience or block other traffic or pedestrians

Chips Lovell

S.I. No. 294/1964:

29.—(1) A pedal cyclist shall not, save when overtaking other pedal cyclists (and then only if to do so will not endanger other traffic or pedestrians) drive a pedal cycle on a roadway in such a manner as to result in more than two pedal cycles driving abreast.

(2) Pedal cyclists on a roadway shall cycle in single file when overtaking other traffic.

sammalone

I'm afraid I have to agree with Cookie_Monster on this one and of course have everyone jump down my throat! As a cyclist and a driver (but a cyclist first I would always say) and a frequent user of the road in question I would say cycling two abreast for the whole length of that road is thoughtless and a reason why motorists get annoyed by cyclists. They could have showed a bit of consideration and left motorists pass like C_M said. Surely we should all have a little bit of thought for other road users be they cyclists or motorists. No one category of road user owns the road.

langdang

Crap road, basically a cattle-track, just as likely to be stuck behind a tractor, or an old farmer driving his car at tractor speed.
Single file cycling invites morons to skim by you in the face of oncoming traffic, double file at least forces them to wait for a safe overtaking opportunity.
Have been skimmed on that road before by trucks.

TinyExplosions

sammalone wrote: »

I'm afraid I have to agree with Cookie_Monster on this one and of course have everyone jump down my throat! As a cyclist and a driver (but a cyclist first I would always say) and a frequent user of the road in question I would say cycling two abreast for the whole length of that road is thoughtless and a reason why motorists get annoyed by cyclists. They could have showed a bit of consideration and left motorists pass like C_M said. Surely we should all have a little bit of thought for other road users be they cyclists or motorists. No one category of road user owns the road.

That's a fair enough point, and yes, it may seem inconsiderate, but and it's an important one, they are following the laws prescribed for road use (the ones in the statute book, the 'Rules of The Road' are more guidelines, not the letter of the law). And particularly if the riders felt safer two abreast (to stop cars skimming them or taking a chance at overtaking), I think they're justified in their stance.

Doctor Bob

Mountjoy Mugger wrote: »

According to the ROTR

Do cycle in single file if cycling beside another person would endanger, inconvenience or block other traffic or pedestrians

a) ROTR is guidance, not law. I have no compunction inconveniencing or blocking other traffic if it's required for my own safety. It's not done out of spite.
b) The law, as posted by el tonto, does permit two abreast cycling.
c) 0.75m (~width of a single cyclist) + 1.5m (safe overtaking distance) = 2.25m. Does that leave enough space within the lane for the overtaking car? This is the key determinant as to whether it would be polite to go single file to allow overtaking.

Lumen

It's not just about convenience vs your own safety. There's the safety of others too.

Many drivers are so utterly witless that they'll overtake a single cyclist across the white line going into a blind bend.

I experienced this last Thurs night - a van overtook me on the road between Lucan and Clonee and almost collided into an oncoming car. It was very, very close.

Evidence of general fúckwittery of the driving population:

Drivers heading wrong way on motorways a 'daily' peril
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0412/1224294483477.html

seamus

el tonto wrote: »

29.—(1) A pedal cyclist shall not, save when overtaking other pedal cyclists (and then only if to do so will not endanger other traffic or pedestrians) drive a pedal cycle on a roadway in such a manner as to result in more than two pedal cycles driving abreast.

Updated statute from 1997:

47. (1) A pedal cyclist shall not drive a pedal cycle on a roadway in such a manner as to result in more than two pedal cyclists driving abreast, save when overtaking other pedal cyclists, and then only if to do so will not endanger, inconvenience or obstruct other traffic or pedestrians.

IMO, the ROTR has interpreted this law incorrectly. The above law is clearly stating that you may only cycle more than two abreast if you are overtaking and to do so will not endanger, inconvenience or obstruct other traffic or pedestrians.

Otherwise the sentence reads like this:
A pedal cyclist shall not drive a pedal cycle on a roadway in such a manner as to result in more than two pedal cyclists driving abreast and then only if to do so will not endanger, inconvenience or obstruct other traffic or pedestrians.

Which in other words means, "A cyclist shall not cycle in a manner as to cause an obstruction". Which again is debateable because it theoretically says that cyclists are not permitted on the road whenever other traffic is around. Which is clearly incorrect. Therefore my first interpretation is the correct one. In the context of this thread, the cyclist would be an obstruction whether they are single file or two abreast, so it makes no difference.

DirkVoodoo

Peugeot 206 is not a big car (width of 1655mm), yet you can see from the photo below that there is not a lot of room left in the lane. I can't see how you could overtake a single cyclist without moving out into the other lane, in which case riding single file or 2 abreast becomes moot, you will only be able to overtake when you have a sufficiently clear stretch of visible road.



EDIT: I don't see the front foglights but that may be a Peugeot 207, width of 1720mm.

lescol

From the Cork Roads Design Office

The existing N22 from Ballyvourney to the west of Macroom has a substandard horizontal alignment where there are tight bends with no overtaking opportunity and forward visibility is restricted by the topography

http://www.corkrdo.ie/n22_ovens_to_ballyvourney.php

Regardless of two abreast or riding in single file there is no room for overtaking. I must admit that if I was on my own I'd look behind, realise the extent of the traffic build up and pull off for a minute to let them pass.

Lumen

Canis Lupus

lescol wrote: »

Regardless of two abreast or riding in single file there is no room for overtaking. I must admit that if I was on my own I'd look behind, realise the extent of the traffic build up and pull off for a minute to let them pass.

I'd have to go with this as well. We can all share the road but the same with any slow moving vehicle, being aware of what you're doing to traffic and pulling in intermittently is simple courtesy to other road users.

studiorat

Lumen wrote: »

Quite an ambiguous illustration isn't it. Do you cross the centre line overtaking a cyclist or not?

ROK ON

I know the stretch of road in question very well. It is IMHO barely suitable for driving let alone cycling. It is very busy and is the main route from Cork to Killarney/Tralee.
The stretch from Killarney to Ballvourney and Macroom to Cork is ideal for cycling. Big and wide with plenty of hard shoulder.

The part in question from Ballvourney to Macroom is narrower than many boreens. I drive a small car and have been forced to pull in and almost stop due to on on on on coming buses - that's how narrow it is in parts

In my opinion as a cyclist and motorist I would never cycle it, there are quoted roads that run parallel.

This just puts the OPs post in some context.
Whilst the cyclists have a right to cycle on this road and in 2 abreast, I don't believe that it is fair to other road users. This is a national road not a back road or regional route. Despite that there is no safe place to overtake on this road. I would be furious if on an N road I was forced to drive at the pace of cyclist/tractor etc.
It's not fair. A bit of common sense and courtesy should be applied. If I was cycling that stretch I would pull in as there isn't room for one car to pass a single cyclist IMO.

Cyclists had a right to be there. Drivers can't overtake irresponsibly, however poor judgement from the cyclists in question.

ednwireland

studiorat wrote: »

Quite an ambiguous illustration isn't it. Do you cross the centre line overtaking a cyclist or not?

not at all its a dotted centre line hence you can cross (if nothings coming the otther way) it just give the cyclist plenty of room

interesting stuff from the cycle chic guy, postive campaigning as opposed to all the negative stuff, honestly wonder about all the death and gore speeding campaigns i tend to switch off mentally when thoose come on

Raam

ROK ON wrote: »

I would be furious if on an N road I was forced to drive at the pace of cyclist/tractor etc.
It's not fair. A bit of common sense and courtesy should be applied. If I was cycling that stretch I would pull in as there isn't room for one car to pass a single cyclist IMO.

Cyclists had a right to be there. Drivers can't overtake irresponsibly, however poor judgement from the cyclists in question.

Furious? Really? I'd hate to see you when something serious happens.

Canis Lupus

Raam wrote: »

Furious? Really? I'd hate to see you when something serious happens.

Why he'd get right out of the car and JUST FLIP IT THE F*CK OVER hulk style.

Raam

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Why he'd get right out of the car and JUST FLIP IT THE F*CK OVER hulk style.

Jaysus, imagine the delay that would cause.

studiorat

ednwireland wrote: »

not at all its a dotted centre line hence you can cross (if nothings coming the otther way) it just give the cyclist plenty of room

No, the picture is ambiguous, given it's from RotR I presume. Never mind it's OT anyway...

langdang

ROK ON wrote: »

I know the stretch of road in question very well. It is IMHO barely suitable for driving let alone cycling. It is very busy and is the main route from Cork to Killarney/Tralee.

Yes, woefully inadequate for the traffic it has to carry. Even without cyclists or tractors you regularly end up in a convoy maxing at 60kph if you're lucky.

kennyb3

Im with the 2 a breast crowd - ride 1 a breast and you ll get clipped or if the car makes a maneuvere inwards feeling they are too close to something oncoming you're brown bread. Force them to overtake when the road is clear.

ROK ON

I have no issue with 2 abreast cycling. It makes sense. My point was specific to this 11k stretch of road from Ballyvorney to the Mons bar outside Macroom. Any cyclist on that stretch needs their head examined.

Raam

Anyone ever notice this...
If you ride single file, yet still maintain the same road position as the outside rider in a two up formation... no one really cares, but woe betide if you try and ride beside someone. I think people just get really offended by two riders side by side, even if there is tonnes of room to overtake.

Lumen

Raam wrote: »

Anyone ever notice this...
If you ride single file, yet still maintain the same road position as the outside rider in a two up formation... no one really cares, but woe betide if you try and ride beside someone. I think people just get really offended by two riders side by side, even if there is tonnes of room to overtake.

Stupid cyclists, thinking they can chat to each other as they travel.

It's not like that happens in cars. I drive along in complete silence, and insist my passengers do the same.

Raam

Sure what do we need to cycle two abreast for anyway? Ever cycle must consist of trying to ride someone off your wheel. Otherwise, what is the point?

Chips Lovell

Raam wrote: »

Anyone ever notice this...
If you ride single file, yet still maintain the same road position as the outside rider in a two up formation... no one really cares, but woe betide if you try and ride beside someone. I think people just get really offended by two riders side by side, even if there is tonnes of room to overtake.

Yep, noticed that too.

el tel

In the UK you are permitted to cross a solid while line when turning right, when directed to by a copper with a big hairy whopper and "overtaking a vehicle with a design speed of less than 10mph".

In Ireland you may only cross a solid white line in an emergency, for access
or when directed to by a Guard.

So, in the OP's case I can't see that he/she could pass legally (let alone safely) any cyclist on that stretch given the width of the lanes. If the OP was wise to the law then they wouldn't have had cause to be so frustrated at the time and could have just chalked the 'obtruction' sic down to one of those things that happens in bumpkin land of a Sunday morning.

8kvscdpglqnyr4

Raam wrote: »

Anyone ever notice this...
If you ride single file, yet still maintain the same road position as the outside rider in a two up formation... no one really cares, but woe betide if you try and ride beside someone. I think people just get really offended by two riders side by side, even if there is tonnes of room to overtake.

I was about to reply with the exact same comment - you beat me to it.

That's what typically happens in groups I out cycling with. Get a beep from a car behind on a windy road. We go single file but same distance from the ditch. Car still can't overtake but I think it makes the driver of the car happier

Raam

Theo Weak Somebody wrote: »

I was about to reply with the exact same comment - you beat me to it.

I'll bet I have nicer socks too.

CramCycle

Lumen wrote: »

Drivers heading wrong way on motorways a 'daily' peril
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0412/1224294483477.html

I see at least two people a week doing this at the junction at the UCD end of Bird Avenue. Considering I am only there for 2/3 minutes a day, I can't imagine how often it actually happens. They take a left onto Bird Avenue before the triangle instead of after it into oncoming traffic. They always seem to miss oncoming traffic and just wave politely back at you when you shout and wave your arms at them.

On the 2 abreast issue, I think the cyclists were in the right, it would have invited alot of unnecessary danger to the situation to ride one abreast and give the impression it was safe to overtake when there was no way to know. Just because the road isn't safe to cycle along doesn't mean the cyclists were stupid/ignorant either as most weekends I go out I come along roads I haven't been on before, hardly my fault I am not a precog.

Cookie_Monster

el tel wrote: »

In the UK you are permitted to cross a solid while line when turning right, when directed to by a copper with a big hairy whopper and "overtaking a vehicle with a design speed of less than 10mph".

In Ireland you may only cross a solid white line in an emergency, for access
or when directed to by a Guard.

So, in the OP's case I can't see that he/she could pass legally (let alone safely) any cyclist on that stretch given the width of the lanes. If the OP was wise to the law then they wouldn't have had cause to be so frustrated at the time and could have just chalked the 'obtruction' sic down to one of those things that happens in bumpkin land of a Sunday morning.

what relevance would the bolded bit have anyway? Bicycles would have a much higher design speed.
You can cross a solid white line for access also, the excuse I'd use was I crossed it to access the rest of the road in a quicker manner :P

irishmotorist

One of the caveats to never crossing a solid white line (as far as I learned anyway) was if you are avoiding an obstruction. I never saw a definition of what an obstruction is, but perhaps it could be argued that 30km/h bikes (or any other vehicles at that speed) on a 80 or 100 km/h road are an obstruction. On the point of turning right across a solid white line, you should always see a 1 or 2 dash in the solid line opposite junctions - indicating that you may cross the line at that point.

Redjeep!

I'm just surprised that nobody's mentioned the old "cyclist's don't even pay roadtax" thing yet.

Normally happens by now in these threads.

CramCycle

irishmotorist wrote: »

On the point of turning right across a solid white line, you should always see a 1 or 2 dash in the solid line opposite junctions - indicating that you may cross the line at that point.

You should but you don't.