junior/amateur/schoolboy football

celtictiger32

just having a look for threads on junior football etc and found nothing so thought id start one ,,,,,

basically somewhere to air views on what it says in the title. i.e the thread from the mother looking for a club for her 8 yr old etc or the lad looking for a club on the southside or anything else in between.everything ive seen so far has been english premier league or maybe european with a small dose of l.o.i so this is for the rest its the bread and butter of football so lets hear what people have to say.

anything from leinster senior to a.u.l, munster leagues n.d.s.l, ccfl, d.d.s.l and so on....................

UpTheSlashers

no they get enough help

Most people go to foot.ie to talk about junior and schoolboy football so youll find it hard to attract interest here. I myself would like to see more "grassroots" football discussion on boards as i dont like foot.ie

celtictiger32

no they get enough help

to get the ball rolling what would peoples opinions be on a ladder system similar to the english league whereas a team/club could work its way up from the bottom to the top by football means i.e. gaining promotions. obviously i know certain requirements would have to be in place with a club the higher they go. but it seems there is a bit of a closed door attitude coming from the top tiers of football in this country. with all due respect to the likes of sporting fingal and the likes i dont think a team should appear from nowhere and gain entry to our national leagues, imo the chance should of gone to a club that had won a league just under the national league at least they would have had some sort of tradition etc.

celtictiger32

no they get enough help

UpTheSlashers wrote: »

Most people go to foot.ie to talk about junior and schoolboy football so youll find it hard to attract interest here. I myself would like to see more "grassroots" football discussion on boards as i dont like foot.ie

im the same im not too fond of it myself, and there is a football section here so why not??

stovelid

celtictiger32 wrote: »

with all due respect to the likes of sporting fingal and the likes

I don't think you have to worry about them any more.

PCPhoto

celtictiger32 wrote: »

to get the ball rolling what would peoples opinions be on a ladder system similar to the english league whereas a team/club could work its way up from the bottom to the top by football means i.e. gaining promotions. obviously i know certain requirements would have to be in place with a club the higher they go. but it seems there is a bit of a closed door attitude coming from the top tiers of football in this country. with all due respect to the likes of sporting fingal and the likes i dont think a team should appear from nowhere and gain entry to our national leagues, imo the chance should of gone to a club that had won a league just under the national league at least they would have had some sort of tradition etc.

I would have to disagree .... and partially agree with you.

Yes .... teams should be promoted and build a club from grass roots up....but they need the investment of businesses....and if they have the capacity to compete at the top level (financially and on the pitch)

then fair enough to them.

Grass roots football is grossly underdeveloped and the problem for me lies within the FAI, ...... while they are interested in development of our youth they are only willing to put money in when they see a financial return....basically only when a team gets to semi-final stage will the FAI decide that the sport/trophy needs advertising/sponsorship.

For me the FAI needs a shake up, Grass roots football needs to be examined up and down the country .... not all clubs are given funding, the FAI demand clubhouses and facilities at every ground in the country .... clubs cant afford that and I know that most players that have played in the top tier of Irish Football have gotten changed at the side of a pitch or been driven to games in cars.... grass roots is not about the facilities ...its about enjoying the game.

Let the kids have fun !!

_blank_

celtictiger32 wrote: »

to get the ball rolling what would peoples opinions be on a ladder system similar to the english league whereas a team/club could work its way up from the bottom to the top by football means i.e. gaining promotions.

Some of the clubs just aren't interested in this, preferring to be a conveyor belt for talent to the UK, pick up money from the UK clubs to enable them to stay competitive at the level of Leinster Senior, and that's good enough for them. More power to them if that's they way they want to operate.

I'd like a proper link up between the senior LoI sides and the "factory" LSL sides. Players are sent across the water on trials year after year and only a tiny percentage of them make it. We ALL know someone who was a decent footballer, went for trials in England/Scotland, didn't make it and ended up on the scrap heap back home, not even playing football any more. There's just no aspiration for them to play LoI, it's not attractive to them for whatever reason, if they don't make it even in the Lower Leagues in England then they haven't "made it".

There are many reasons for this, which include a mindset that it's "us against them" between the LSL/Schoolboy clubs and the LoI. The utter lack of opportunities given to the very best Irish players playing at home when it comes to the National Team set-up. It's fairly obvious that a player not getting his game in League 1 over the water has a better chance of a cap than someone playing week-in week-out for the top Premier Division sides here at home.

There is no direct line from the LSL into the LoI for players at the moment, well not in Dublin anyway. This is the first thing I'd sort.

celtictiger32

no they get enough help

stovelid wrote: »

I don't think you have to worry about them any more.

it was just used as an example, and actually as an example of it not working out you cant just start a club and stick it into the national league ok they did have a few bob thrown at them for the year or two but they proved that you do need the support from the fans etc. businesses will only throw so much money at a club but they still need the week in week out financial support of gates, merchandise etc. even the grassroots clubs need the likes of subs and lottos to keep going. and they only come from your fans and membersetc.

Des wrote: »

Some of the clubs just aren't interested in this, preferring to be a conveyor belt for talent to the UK, pick up money from the UK clubs to enable them to stay competitive at the level of Leinster Senior, and that's good enough for them. More power to them if that's they way they want to operate.

I'd like a proper link up between the senior LoI sides and the "factory" LSL sides. Players are sent across the water on trials year after year and only a tiny percentage of them make it. We ALL know someone who was a decent footballer, went for trials in England/Scotland, didn't make it and ended up on the scrap heap back home, not even playing football any more. There's just no aspiration for them to play LoI, it's not attractive to them for whatever reason, if they don't make it even in the Lower Leagues in England then they haven't "made it".

There are many reasons for this, which include a mindset that it's "us against them" between the LSL/Schoolboy clubs and the LoI. The utter lack of opportunities given to the very best Irish players playing at home when it comes to the National Team set-up. It's fairly obvious that a player not getting his game in League 1 over the water has a better chance of a cap than someone playing week-in week-out for the top Premier Division sides here at home.

There is no direct line from the LSL into the LoI for players at the moment, well not in Dublin anyway. This is the first thing I'd sort.

i agree des there just seems to be a big divide between leagues i know its competitive but surely theres no conflict of interest between a national league and inter mediate/junior football etc. i think the model they use in england is done very well. obviously as i said the critereia must be in place the higher the league a club goes. but i think when a club gets itself into a position to be close to eligibilty for the l.o.i that a lot of that would be in place .

UpTheSlashers

no they get enough help

Every league should be linked imo. From junior leagues up to the LOI Premier. I dont see why it cant be done.

_blank_

UpTheSlashers wrote: »

Every league should be linked imo. From junior leagues up to the LOI Premier. I dont see why it cant be done.

Because the majority of the teams from outside the PD/FD/AC LoI ladder don't want to be involved would be the main stumbling block.

If you offered Cherry Orchard a place in the League of Ireland you'd be laughed out of their clubhouse, ditto for Home Farm.

CSF

Des wrote: »

Because the majority of the teams from outside the PD/FD/AC LoI ladder don't want to be involved would be the main stumbling block.

If you offered Cherry Orchard a place in the League of Ireland you'd be laughed out of their clubhouse, ditto for Home Farm.

They shouldn't have the option.

stovelid

The big junior clubs (the ones that ship plane-loads of kids over to England willy-nilly) are a rival power base to the LOI. I doubt they would view LOI clubs getting in on their gravy train if (and in the case of some LOI clubs, when) kids start opting for LOI clubs with a youth setup.

In some ways, it's no different to the competition between football and GAA: it's just competition for the best young players - for different reasons obviously.

This isn't helped by the fact that LOI clubs have historically neglected youth setups. Rovers have tried to to address this by putting money into a youth setup and facilities and taking over Tallaght Town which hopefully should see dividends eventually.

UpTheSlashers

no they get enough help

Des wrote: »

Because the majority of the teams from outside the PD/FD/AC LoI ladder don't want to be involved would be the main stumbling block.

If you offered Cherry Orchard a place in the League of Ireland you'd be laughed out of their clubhouse, ditto for Home Farm.

Im not familiar with clubs in Ireland other than those in my local junior league so i dont know what the position of other clubs are. Thats very disappointing to hear. We all know the talent C. Orchard, Farm and other DDSL clubs have at underage level, I could never understand why this didnt translate into a position in the LoI. Its quite a bizarre situation. Im a Tipp man myself and the highest standard here is Junior. I could never understand why there wasnt a system where the likes of Clonmel Town and St. Michaels (Tipperary Town) could be promoted to play in a regional or provincial league against teams closer to their own level.

dreamers75

PCPhoto wrote: »

Grass roots football is grossly underdeveloped and the problem for me lies within the FAI, ...... while they are interested in development of our youth they are only willing to put money in when they see a financial return....basically only when a team gets to semi-final stage will the FAI decide that the sport/trophy needs advertising/sponsorship.

For me the FAI needs a shake up, Grass roots football needs to be examined up and down the country .... not all clubs are given funding, the FAI demand clubhouses and facilities at every ground in the country .... clubs cant afford that and I know that most players that have played in the top tier of Irish Football have gotten changed at the side of a pitch or been driven to games in cars.... grass roots is not about the facilities ...its about enjoying the game.

Let the kids have fun !!

FAi do far more for the kids that the media would lead to believe. Every club cant have the facilities you mention above for instance there more than 20 clubs in Clondalkin they cant all have dressing rooms.

FAI needs to bring the regional coaches they let go due to cost cutting, the programs are there for kids to play football, summer camps, clubs, qualified coaches, pitches and there are some fantastic facilties around dublin all available for use by clubs and leagues.

The junior clubs have to take some of the blame too, some of the bigger ones only interested in sending big physical players to england.

celtictiger32

no they get enough help

dreamers75 wrote: »

FAi do far more for the kids that the media would lead to believe. Every club cant have the facilities you mention above for instance there more than 20 clubs in Clondalkin they cant all have dressing rooms.

FAI needs to bring the regional coaches they let go due to cost cutting, the programs are there for kids to play football, summer camps, clubs, qualified coaches, pitches and there are some fantastic facilties around dublin all available for use by clubs and leagues.

The junior clubs have to take some of the blame too, some of the bigger ones only interested in sending big physical players to england.

i have to disagree, yes there are some clubs who are happy being a conveyor to english clubs. but i think the majority would love to hang onto these players without holding them back if you know what i mean. i run a club myself and since i started it i have always had aspirations of playing in the l.o.i. i know we're a long way off as we're relatively new but the dream will always be there and i have no intentions of beingg a feeder club to anybody. as for dressing rooms and facilities we have to play our home games outside of the area we are based because of a lack of pitches.

starbelgrade

I played for Home Farm as a kid & it was little more than a glorified scouting ground for English clubs.

You could even tell which club scouts were over because they were usually accompanied by one of the big name players of the time, making a training ground "visit" to give some "motivational & training skills".

celtictiger32

no they get enough help

starbelgrade wrote: »

I played for Home Farm as a kid & it was little more than a glorified scouting ground for English clubs.

You could even tell which club scouts were over because they were usually accompanied by one of the big name players of the time, making a training ground "visit" to give some "motivational & training skills".

it really is a pity it is this way can you imagine if even half the irish players playing in england had stayed here and played in the l.o.i. im sure the likes of home farm could have produced a good side in the l.o.i. if things were different. (not even going to mention the home farm everton project). theres plenty of amateur sides out there that could have a crack at that level if the system was in place look at killester a couple of years ago small junior minnows (in national league terms) and the run they had in the f.a.i.cup

celtictiger32

no they get enough help

what about expanding th e amount of junior teams entering the fai senior cup at the moment the four semi finalists gain entry, but i think maybe 8 or 16 should go in make it interesting for the big boys. or maybe an open draw around the country for all clubs??

dreamers75

celtictiger32 wrote: »

i have to disagree, yes there are some clubs who are happy being a conveyor to english clubs. but i think the majority would love to hang onto these players without holding them back if you know what i mean. i run a club myself and since i started it i have always had aspirations of playing in the l.o.i. i know we're a long way off as we're relatively new but the dream will always be there and i have no intentions of beingg a feeder club to anybody. as for dressing rooms and facilities we have to play our home games outside of the area we are based because of a lack of pitches.

Assuming your not in Dublin and the "big" clubs dont show up at your camps and preseason games to cherry pick your best players with the lure of **** to the parents.

Good players in Dublin are "asked" to join the better clubs but only at the age of 10 when they have shown ability for 3 years with another club, Does the other club get any money when he gets on the plane, does it ****.

Theres a reason certain "big" dublin clubs u7s to 9s suck, cos they havent robbed all the good players in that league yet.

FAI runs the emerging talent program, except for the cost its ****ing brilliant. Top quality coaches and the best players in the league all training and playing games vs other leagues.

Being an LOI fan i can slate the FAI but not on the underage stuff they do and courses they run. I would put us ahead of a lot countries on that angle and its the most important angle of all.

But the FAI are not responsible for qualified coaches making players hoof it to the big the guy simply for the win.

micks

This has been discussed several times here before, but personally if you want to "fix" irish football a re-organising from top to bottom would be a start.
FAI at the top the LOI then one senior league in each province, and schoolboy leagues per county in each province.
At senior level a ladder as described with option to LOI. Junior/intermediate should be scrapped for one Senior level below LOI

But it wont happen too many cronies running the various leagues too set in their ways to change

To say the FAI dont do anything at grassroots is laughable, the change in the FAI's direct involvement in grassroots has been huge. The only excuse for a club not to have its managers trained in coaching courses is laziness its all put on a plate by the FAI.
There is no direct route to LOI from say the LSL BUT the A Championship has been open if they wanted to join. Most LSL clubs wont go near the LOI because the cost and its widely felt its badly run.
An A/B/C/D Championship system under the LOI operated regionally to keep cost down will have to happen at some stage
Complaining about the Orchard/Home Farm sending kids to England is ridiculous if LOI clubs didn't neglect schoolboy football for decades then they'd be the ones sending kids to england or keeping them either way it'd be win win.
Dreamers - if you're being charged for the ETP then its the League run one and the SDFL is the only centre I heard of charging.

micks

PCPhoto wrote: »

I would have to disagree .... and partially agree with you.

Yes .... teams should be promoted and build a club from grass roots up....but they need the investment of businesses....and if they have the capacity to compete at the top level (financially and on the pitch)

then fair enough to them.

Grass roots football is grossly underdeveloped and the problem for me lies within the FAI, ...... while they are interested in development of our youth they are only willing to put money in when they see a financial return....basically only when a team gets to semi-final stage will the FAI decide that the sport/trophy needs advertising/sponsorship.

For me the FAI needs a shake up, Grass roots football needs to be examined up and down the country .... not all clubs are given funding, the FAI demand clubhouses and facilities at every ground in the country .... clubs cant afford that and I know that most players that have played in the top tier of Irish Football have gotten changed at the side of a pitch or been driven to games in cars.... grass roots is not about the facilities ...its about enjoying the game.

Let the kids have fun !!

All the FAI cups that I know of are sponsored from the start and are well known/advertised
If you think they're not try play a FAI Junior Cup game without an Umbro ball.

How do the FAI demand Clubhouses and facilities?

micks

celtictiger32 wrote: »

what about expanding th e amount of junior teams entering the fai senior cup at the moment the four semi finalists gain entry, but i think maybe 8 or 16 should go in make it interesting for the big boys. or maybe an open draw around the country for all clubs??

The problem is there is already too many cups - fair enough another 4 or 8 would not make much of a difference. A top LSL or AUL team could be in 7 or 8 competitions and do well in all of them then they end up playing for 12 months. It doesn't last.

celtictiger32

no they get enough help

micks wrote: »

The problem is there is already too many cups - fair enough another 4 or 8 would not make much of a difference. A top LSL or AUL team could be in 7 or 8 competitions and do well in all of them then they end up playing for 12 months. It doesn't last.

then why not scrap the likes of the leinster junior cup and the likes and have a crack at a bigger f.a.i. cup. its usually almost the same faces in the latter rounds of the f.a.i. junior and i honestly dont have a problem with that i say fair play to them most of them have done the work to be there. but it would be nice to see the small fish getting a crack of the big boys it would be a big day for a small club and you never know a few upsets along the way would make it interesting. i suppose similar to the fa cup in england.


im not blaming the f.a.i for the lack of coaching etc. that is down to the clubs i know personally in my club every coach has done a course/courses of some level and hope to keep them advancing all the time. but i do think they could do more whether it be in the likes of funding or something like that. some of the new initiatives are very good the likes of the emerging talent etc.

celtictiger32

no they get enough help

terrible season for my lads this year, mid table but i know we're a much better side than that anyone any suggestions on the best place to find a new manager???

celtictiger32

no they get enough help

all munster affair in the fai junior cup st michaels of tipp to play pike rovers of limerick.