World Cup - General discussion thread

Judgement Day

Now I know some of you will have more important things to worry about such as the little matter of putting Toulouse away on the 30th April, but there really is only one game in town - the RWC. This weekends' 27-0 demolition of Bulls by Crusaders, hot on the heels of their 44-28 defeat of Sharks at Twickenham illustrates the supremacy of NZ sides over the the other Super 15 teams. Crusaders were missing Dan Carter on Saturday which makes their victory even more telling. You Tube highlights below. Sonny Billy gets better with every game and how good are Dagg and Fruean?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF9jTONWRPw

This piece from Scrum.com sums up, for me anyway, where the mighty Boks are today and as for the Aussies. :rolleyes:

Have Boks reached their sell-by date?
Stephen Nell
April 11, 2011

If the first eight rounds of Super Rugby action are taken as a yardstick, South Africa's Rugby World Cup campaign is in a spot of bother.

Not only is the form of certain senior Springboks a major concern, but there is a definite suspicion that a handful of them have reached their sell-by date.

In Super Rugby we are seeing the Bulls beaten at their own game. Even shorn of their leading lights in Dan Carter and Richie McCaw, the Crusaders thumped the defending champions 27-0 at the weekend.

Once revered as the leading lock pairing in world rugby, Bakkies Botha and Victor Matfield are struggling. Botha is no longer feared in his own back yard and was recently outplayed by 21-year-old Stormers lock Rynhardt Elstadt, while Matfield came off second best against Chris Jack at the weekend.

Even the great Fourie du Preez is struggling at the base of the scrum, Pierre Spies is in poor form at No.8 and Wynand Olivier's missed tackle on Sonny Bill Williams at the weekend may well have done his chances of making the World Cup squad serious harm.

Springbok coach Peter de Villiers declared after South Africa's victory over England at Twickenham, that it made no sense to go around an opponent if you could go straight through.

But that was a match against a developing England side that was far from the finished article. What then if your opponent can match you for physical strength? The performances by the Crusaders against the Bulls and Sharks, as well as that of the Reds against the Stormers, suggest that South Africa are not necessarily ahead of their southern hemisphere rivals in terms of strength.

It may be that some of the Boks are still building up steam. Yet one also has to entertain the possibility that a few of them are over the hill and could leave the Springboks facing a crisis at the World Cup.

De Villiers certainly nailed his colours to the mast with a contracted squad of 23 that he announced last week. He has stated in public that a contract does not necessarily mean that a player will be picked, but don't hold your breath that some of the underperforming big names will be discarded.

The coach said he was considering John Smit as a hooker only, even though the Bok captain is only featuring at prop for the Sharks this year. When quizzed about the form of senior players, De Villiers pulled out the old chestnut of form being temporary and class permanent. And how exactly the likes of Olivier and Adrian Jacobs made it into a contracted squad, only the coach will know.

Neither Frans Steyn nor Ruan Pienaar are there, but both are in the Springbok plans. Steyn is being linked with a move to the Lions in South Africa, while De Villiers' regard for Pienaar is well-documented.

De Villiers needs Steyn at fullback - note that the list of contracted players did not include a No.15 - and Pienaar may still be an option at fly-half as Morné Steyn's form in a struggling Bulls side has also not been anything to write home about.

There is a definite possibility that De Villiers will bring some assistants on board, with the names of Western Province director of coaching Rassie Erasmus and former Wallaby coach Eddie Jones featuring prominently.

Jones has stated that he will be open for discussions with the South African Rugby Union (SARU), but previously also said that it was unlikely he would help as he did not have an association with the current coaching set-up. But he's not out of the mix.

If Erasmus comes on board, it wouldn't come as any surprise if Stormers defence coach Jacques Nienaber also features in the plans. South Africa's defence was really poor in last year's Tri-Nations and they were still troubled by Wales' attack on their end-of-season tour.

The Stormers have the meanest defensive record in Super Rugby and therefore it would make sense to bring some of the team's brains trust on board if the individuals are willing. What we are unlikely to see from South Africa in the coming months is any form of innovation and major change.

Smit's presence in the contracted squad means he will be the captain, though De Villiers has stated that the more dynamic Bismarck du Plessis may well start some games. If that scenario occurs, South Africa are likely to be led by Matfield. Experience, of course, can't be bought and South Africa have it in abundance for the defence of their crown. However, there is a fine line between being experienced and long in the tooth.
http://www.espnscrum.com/southafrica/rugby/story/138071.html

The World Cup maybe knock-out rugby but anybody who thinks that the NZ squad now building are chokers are only fooling themselves. Hardly out of second gear and the signs are ominous for anyone who cares to see them. What thoughts anybody else?

Ciaran-Irl

Judgement Day wrote: »

The World Cup maybe knock-out rugby but anybody who thinks that the NZ squad now building are chokers are only fooling themselves. Hardly out of second gear and the signs are ominous for anyone who cares to see them. What thoughts anybody else?

I noticed that they got rid of any referees they don't like, which is going to help them.

New Zealand are certainly the most talented team though. Hard to say if they will make a mess of it, but they are good enough that they should be able to compensate for the choking.

sock puppet

Judgement Day wrote: »

Now I know some of you will have more important things to worry about such as the little matter of putting Toulouse away on the 30th April, but there really is only one game in town - the RWC. This weekends' 27-0 demolition of Bulls by Crusaders, hot on the heels of their 44-28 defeat of Sharks at Twickenham illustrates the supremacy of NZ sides over the the other Super 15 teams. Crusaders were missing Dan Carter on Saturday which makes their victory even more telling. You Tube highlights below. Sonny Billy gets better with every game and how good are Dagg and Fruean?

To be fair Super Rugby form doesn't always translate onto the international stage. Francois Luow's Tri Nations debut last year wasn't exactly a roaring success.

The World Cup maybe knock-out rugby but anybody who thinks that the NZ squad now building are chokers are only fooling themselves. Hardly out of second gear and the signs are ominous for anyone who cares to see them. What thoughts anybody else?

New Zealand are so far ahead of anyone else really. Although imo if they're worried about choking Dagg is exactly the kind of player they don't want in the team.

South Africa need to make a lot of changes. Drop the likes of Spies, M Steyn and Habana. Don't see it happening however. Australia are good enough to beat anybody but I don't think they have the pack to win 3 knockout games really.

Judgement Day

The truncated Tri-Nations fixture list is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Tri_Nations_Series with the series reduced to six from nine matches due to the proximity of the World Cup. NZ have the Boks at home first so that will be an interesting litmus test for where things stand. Hopefully all the the Tri-Nations teams will come through the competition relatively unscathed. Piri Weepu continues with his recovery from a serious leg injury http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/squads/hurricanes/4661830/Piri-Weepu-stepping-up-rehabilitation and hopefully he will be available for the Tri-Nations and RWC as he's streets ahead of Jimmy Cowan and a handy man with the boot if Dan Carter is having an off day.

twinytwo

Judgement Day wrote: »

Now I know some of you will have more important things to worry about such as the little matter of putting Toulouse away on the 30th April, but there really is only one game in town - the RWC. This weekends' 27-0 demolition of Bulls by Crusaders, hot on the heels of their 44-28 defeat of Sharks at Twickenham illustrates the supremacy of NZ sides over the the other Super 15 teams. Crusaders were missing Dan Carter on Saturday which makes their victory even more telling. You Tube highlights below. Sonny Billy gets better with every game and how good are Dagg and Fruean?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF9jTONWRPw

This piece from Scrum.com sums up, for me anyway, where the mighty Boks are today and as for the Aussies. :rolleyes:

Have Boks reached their sell-by date?
Stephen Nell
April 11, 2011

If the first eight rounds of Super Rugby action are taken as a yardstick, South Africa's Rugby World Cup campaign is in a spot of bother.

Not only is the form of certain senior Springboks a major concern, but there is a definite suspicion that a handful of them have reached their sell-by date.

In Super Rugby we are seeing the Bulls beaten at their own game. Even shorn of their leading lights in Dan Carter and Richie McCaw, the Crusaders thumped the defending champions 27-0 at the weekend.

Once revered as the leading lock pairing in world rugby, Bakkies Botha and Victor Matfield are struggling. Botha is no longer feared in his own back yard and was recently outplayed by 21-year-old Stormers lock Rynhardt Elstadt, while Matfield came off second best against Chris Jack at the weekend.

Even the great Fourie du Preez is struggling at the base of the scrum, Pierre Spies is in poor form at No.8 and Wynand Olivier's missed tackle on Sonny Bill Williams at the weekend may well have done his chances of making the World Cup squad serious harm.

Springbok coach Peter de Villiers declared after South Africa's victory over England at Twickenham, that it made no sense to go around an opponent if you could go straight through.

But that was a match against a developing England side that was far from the finished article. What then if your opponent can match you for physical strength? The performances by the Crusaders against the Bulls and Sharks, as well as that of the Reds against the Stormers, suggest that South Africa are not necessarily ahead of their southern hemisphere rivals in terms of strength.

It may be that some of the Boks are still building up steam. Yet one also has to entertain the possibility that a few of them are over the hill and could leave the Springboks facing a crisis at the World Cup.

De Villiers certainly nailed his colours to the mast with a contracted squad of 23 that he announced last week. He has stated in public that a contract does not necessarily mean that a player will be picked, but don't hold your breath that some of the underperforming big names will be discarded.

The coach said he was considering John Smit as a hooker only, even though the Bok captain is only featuring at prop for the Sharks this year. When quizzed about the form of senior players, De Villiers pulled out the old chestnut of form being temporary and class permanent. And how exactly the likes of Olivier and Adrian Jacobs made it into a contracted squad, only the coach will know.

Neither Frans Steyn nor Ruan Pienaar are there, but both are in the Springbok plans. Steyn is being linked with a move to the Lions in South Africa, while De Villiers' regard for Pienaar is well-documented.

De Villiers needs Steyn at fullback - note that the list of contracted players did not include a No.15 - and Pienaar may still be an option at fly-half as Morné Steyn's form in a struggling Bulls side has also not been anything to write home about.

There is a definite possibility that De Villiers will bring some assistants on board, with the names of Western Province director of coaching Rassie Erasmus and former Wallaby coach Eddie Jones featuring prominently.

Jones has stated that he will be open for discussions with the South African Rugby Union (SARU), but previously also said that it was unlikely he would help as he did not have an association with the current coaching set-up. But he's not out of the mix.

If Erasmus comes on board, it wouldn't come as any surprise if Stormers defence coach Jacques Nienaber also features in the plans. South Africa's defence was really poor in last year's Tri-Nations and they were still troubled by Wales' attack on their end-of-season tour.

The Stormers have the meanest defensive record in Super Rugby and therefore it would make sense to bring some of the team's brains trust on board if the individuals are willing. What we are unlikely to see from South Africa in the coming months is any form of innovation and major change.

Smit's presence in the contracted squad means he will be the captain, though De Villiers has stated that the more dynamic Bismarck du Plessis may well start some games. If that scenario occurs, South Africa are likely to be led by Matfield. Experience, of course, can't be bought and South Africa have it in abundance for the defence of their crown. However, there is a fine line between being experienced and long in the tooth.
http://www.espnscrum.com/southafrica/rugby/story/138071.html

The World Cup maybe knock-out rugby but anybody who thinks that the NZ squad now building are chokers are only fooling themselves. Hardly out of second gear and the signs are ominous for anyone who cares to see them. What thoughts anybody else?

tbh honest with players like carter, mcCaw, the franks brothers,read,jack,thorn, whitelock,SBW and dagg as far as club teams go that an impressive squad in itself not to mind the rest of the players they have. Id expect them to destroy a lot of teams.

As for the world cup. NZ are favorites but then they are everytime around. This for the very reason that its in NZ is why it will be the hardest wc for them to win. Its a pity france are in such a crap state at the moment.

Personally i dont know who will win

jolley123

I'd put my money on the Boks. I know NZ are putting teams away right now, but we all know what happens to them come WC time;). But seriously, I just have a feeling about SA.

twinytwo

jolley123 wrote: »

I'd put my money on the Boks. I know NZ are putting teams away right now, but we all know what happens to them come WC time;). But seriously, I just have a feeling about SA.

If they win it its a joke. Much like the last WC final was a joke.

GiftofGab

In fairness the bulls were terrible in that match, the crusaders vs leinster now that would be some match!

Judgement Day

GiftofGab wrote: »

In fairness the bulls were terrible in that match, the crusaders vs leinster now that would be some match!

If you watched the game, it was Crusaders ability to retain possession and not allow the star studded Bulls side to get going that won it. The Bulls may have looked terrible but that was as a result of the pressure they were under. If Carter had been playing instead of Matt Berquist (who left 9-12 points behind him) the result would have been even more dramatic. I think Crusaders with Carter and Richie McCaw would take out most NH national teams but that sadly would be too embarrassing a scenario to allow happen.

Crusaders played an almost perfect game tbh. Put the ball through phases and stretched the Bulls everywhere, and then hit every ruck and maul when defending as if it were their last.

I usually blast the defence (or lack of) in S15 games, but the Crusaders defended as good as any NH side I've seen this year.

It was an eye opener tbh.

castie

Judgement Day wrote: »

If you watched the game, it was Crusaders ability to retain possession and not allow the star studded Bulls side to get going that won it. The Bulls may have looked terrible but that was as a result of the pressure they were under. If Carter had been playing instead of Matt Berquist (who left 9-12 points behind him) the result would have been even more dramatic. I think Crusaders with Carter and Richie McCaw would take out most NH national teams but that sadly would be too embarrassing a scenario to allow happen.

I watched and I saw terrible defense and alot of Crusaders guys off their feet at ruck time not being penalised. Has the whole team been taking lessons from McCaw?

Judgement Day

I hope McCaw has taught them everything he knows.

twinytwo

Judgement Day wrote: »

If you watched the game, it was Crusaders ability to retain possession and not allow the star studded Bulls side to get going that won it. The Bulls may have looked terrible but that was as a result of the pressure they were under. If Carter had been playing instead of Matt Berquist (who left 9-12 points behind him) the result would have been even more dramatic. I think Crusaders with Carter and Richie McCaw would take out most NH national teams but that sadly would be too embarrassing a scenario to allow happen.

id like to see that one, i really would:rolleyes:

swan82

The crusaders would win the 6 nations at a canter.

sock puppet

Judgement Day wrote: »

I think Crusaders with Carter and Richie McCaw would take out most NH national teams but that sadly would be too embarrassing a scenario to allow happen.

In fairness we aren't allowed to cherrypick the some of the best talent from around Europe like the Crusaders do around New Zealand.

profitius

Anybody else thing the 30 man world cup squad is too small? I think it should be 32 players mainly because in rugby you need cover in certain areas and that leaves little cover for other areas.

tolosenc

Makes someone like McFadden absolutely indispensable. Would prefer a 40 man squad.

Jemo

Judgement Day wrote: »

I think Crusaders with Carter and Richie McCaw would take out most NH national teams but that sadly would be too embarrassing a scenario to allow happen.

They probably would. Then again I would back Leinster to beat all NH national teams except maybe France. Its a different focus entirely with different resources and time constraints. Leinster could likely challenge some of the tri-nations teams too. The great thing about clubs is that you can import players where you are weak.

Ciaran-Irl

sock puppet wrote: »

In fairness we aren't allowed to cherrypick the some of the best talent from around Europe like the Crusaders do around New Zealand.

Sure Munster beat Australia and Leicester beat South Africa. What is the big deal if the Crusaders can beat a NH international team? I would expect top clubs to give International teams a run for their money. They are far more used to playing together.

Ciaran-Irl

profitius wrote: »

Anybody else thing the 30 man world cup squad is too small? I think it should be 32 players mainly because in rugby you need cover in certain areas and that leaves little cover for other areas.

You can fly someone out if you have an injury. It just happens to be far away for us. We won't have the same problem for the next World Cup.

I reckon 30 people is about right. Enormous squads are harder to manage and keep as a close knit group. If you have loads of stragglers that are unlikely to get into any 22, then they can naturally enough end up splitting the group.

Same reason why injured players are always sent home from a Lions tour. (Aside from O'Driscoll in 05, which was probably the wrong decision.)

totallegend

Judgement Day wrote: »

I think Crusaders with Carter and Richie McCaw would take out most NH national teams but that sadly would be too embarrassing a scenario to allow happen.

You're right, they would. But then so would Leinster when they were in top form in the HC this year; if you have a team together playing high-level rugby week in, week out, you're going to achieve a much higher standard.

Look at the NZ rugby schedule:
Feb - June; Super 15
July - August; Tri Nations
September - October; World Cup

Everything flows in one direction; the Crusaders are together for 4-5 months, playing and training together. Then the Super 15 ends, the international players go into Tri Nations mode and there are no more club demands. The Tri-Nations leads into the World Cup without the players going back to their clubs and they will be in prime condition to tear the NH teams apart.

Now compare that to the Irish schedule:
August - May; Magners League
October, December, January; three blocks of two HC games
November; 3 internationals
February - March; Six Nations
April - May; HC and ML final stages
July-August; 4 x warm-up games
Sept-Oct; World Cup

So you have the players being dragged in all directions switching from a half-strength Magners side to a full-strength HC side to internationals and back again from week to week, with players being rotated and rested for league games etc. They never get a chance to build the same continuity that the SH teams do, either for country or province. Maybe it's instructive that Leinster's best players last week were Strauss and Nacewa, the two ever-presents? Likewise Howlett has been outstanding for Munster.

If the Northern hemisphere teams get a hiding in the World Cup, as expected, then the governing bodies need to look at reforming the schedule in a big way.

Jemo

Personally I prefer the northern format. If you had the each tournament played in blocks it would likely get quite boring. The international window would be almost like another club season too which would make it less special.

jacothelad

I quite agree. The rugby schedule here is shambolic, partly to suit the fund raising needs of our SH rivals who come here in the autumn for a cash bonanza. I'm sure it would be possible to arrange the various competitions in a way which allows each to flourish without the crazy situation where some teams go almost two months without a home game in the league.

The move from one autumn International to two and now three is a major problem. We need the money but it causes chaos for the ML sides when some players are restricted to a number of games by the IRFU. I'm sure quite a few of our top players at Leinster and Munster are close to their allowed max.

Additionally, fans are denied seeing their best players in action. Player welfare is important so I wonder is playing 3 AI games sensible. If they were used to see some 'new' players then fine but watching Hayes trundle out yet again was dispiriting to say the least.

Perhaps the ML should be split into three separate sections for the regular season games.
Aug to October: say 10 ML followed by AIs,

Nov and Dec then all 6 ERC pool games.

Dec to early Feb 6 ML including Xmas interpro games.

6Ns plus B&I Cup and 'A' inter-pros to keep non internationals fresh.

Then last 6 ML league games, ERC Quarters, semis etc would need to be arranged 'on the fly'.

Another option would be to have an 8 week winter break and play into May and June. I used to love playing on hard, dry pitches at the end of the season. It makes for better rugby.

twinytwo

jacothelad wrote: »

I quite agree. The rugby schedule here is shambolic, partly to suit the fund raising needs of our SH rivals who come here in the autumn for a cash bonanza. I'm sure it would be possible to arrange the various competitions in a way which allows each to flourish without the crazy situation where some teams go almost two months without a home game in the league.

The move from one autumn International to two and now three is a major problem. We need the money but it causes chaos for the ML sides when some players are restricted to a number of games by the IRFU. I'm sure quite a few of our top players at Leinster and Munster are close to their allowed max.

Additionally, fans are denied seeing their best players in action. Player welfare is important so I wonder is playing 3 AI games sensible. If they were used to see some 'new' players then fine but watching Hayes trundle out yet again was dispiriting to say the least.

Perhaps the ML should be split into three separate sections for the regular season games.
Aug to October: say 10 ML followed by AIs,

Nov and Dec then all 6 ERC pool games.

Dec to early Feb 6 ML including Xmas interpro games.

6Ns plus B&I Cup and 'A' inter-pros to keep non internationals fresh.

Then last 6 ML league games, ERC Quarters, semis etc would need to be arranged 'on the fly'.

Another option would be to have an 8 week winter break and play into May and June. I used to love playing on hard, dry pitches at the end of the season. It makes for better rugby.

but it increases the chances for injury. rugby wont be played that late. the gaa would freak