Outdoor socket to mains board or garage board?

paddy147

My girlfriend is starting to construct a raised pond area in the back garden next week.

She wants to have a double outdoor socket for the pond pump.

My question is.....

What would be the best place to wire the SWA back to.

The mains board in the house or the fuse board in the garage?

Also what size of SWA would be enough for an outdoor double socket and a small pond pump?Pond pump has a normal 13amp fused plug on it.

Thanks.:)

rob w

It doesnt really matter which board it gets wired back to really. Whatever one works out easiest for you.

For sizing the cable it depends on the length really, what sort of distance is it? If its not an extremely long run, 2.5mm would prob suffice!

paddy147

Distance wize.........................

A shade under 30 meters if I go from the mains fuse board in the house

12 meters if I go from the fuseboard in the garage.

So what size of SWA would best suit for a outdoor double socket?

Pond pump and some small outdoor garden lights,thats all.

Thanks.:)

cast_iron

2.5 to the shed board would be fine for a 12m run.

You could tube the swa when you get it inside the shed, or just go up beside the existing conduit (funny how we all know the inside of your shed:)).

Bruthal

From the shed board anyway as its a lot shorter a run, and keeps it all simple as well.

Bruthal

cast_iron wrote: »

You could tube the swa when you get it inside the shed, or just go up beside the existing conduit (funny how we all know the inside of your shed:)).

True, put a 20mm steel tube beside your existing 25mm one:D

paddy147

robbie7730 wrote: »

True, put a 20mm steel tube beside your existing 25mm one:D

Funny man..........:D

Garage fuse board it is so.:)

paddy147

cast_iron wrote: »

2.5 to the shed board would be fine for a 12m run.

You could tube the swa when you get it inside the shed, or just go up beside the existing conduit (funny how we all know the inside of your shed:)).

You know it more than I do.:D

So does 2.5 come in SWA or is it just an outdoor waterproof outer sleeve on it?

I have 2 spare cable ducts run in the garden trench (from the garage out to the patio area and from house into the garage) that have a fish wire pre-installed in them.I was thinking ahead and with regards the future on this.

Carlow52

when I did this I brought it from the house fuse board via the utility room where I have a 2 zone time clock leading to two single outdoor sockets which allows control of pump and lights independently
Just an idea

paddy147

Carlow52 wrote: »

when I did this I brought it from the house fuse board via the utility room where I have a 2 zone time clock leading to two single outdoor sockets which allows control of pump and lights independently
Just an idea

So a run of cable from the house fuseboard to the utility room?

How did you install it from the utility room ut to the garden?

Did you fit to plug sockets and then use 2 x 24 hour timers?

And then run the leads from the timers out into the garden?

Or is there a much easier method?

Thanks.:)

Carlow52

paddy147 wrote: »

So a run of cable from the house fuseboard to the utility room?

yes

How did you install it from the utility room ut to the garden?

2 runs of swa

Did you fit to plug sockets and then use 2 x 24 hour timers?

no, proper landis and gyr 2 zone timer fitted inline

And then run the leads from the timers out into the garden?

yes from the 2 zone clock

Or is there a much easier method?

send the gf out in the rain to unplug it each time:D

Thanks.:)

no bother

paddy147

Carlow52 wrote: »

yes

2 runs of swa

no, proper landis and gyr 2 zone timer fitted inline

yes from the 2 zone clock

send the gf out in the rain to unplug it each time:D

no bother

Big thanks for all that (love the bit about the girlfriend).:D


1 more quick question.......

Is this inline timer/clock fully programmable to suit what ever day or time you wish?

Any links to it or where I could buy 1?

Thanks.

Carlow52

Its just a standard timer as used for central heating systems: the one I have is years old
see here for ideas
http://www.raygrahams.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=4517&osCsid=uofhl9e3p4uamq8gh1t50suh03
just check the power consumption of the kit in amps before u buy a clock as some are only 3 amp others are 5 and others are 16 for immersions

paddy147

Carlow52 wrote: »

just check the power consumption of the kit in amps before u buy a clock as some are only 3 amp others are 5 and others are 16 for immersions

So whats best suited for running the 2 outdoor sockets then?

3,5 or 16?

Thanks again.:)

Bruthal

If you do go from the house fuseboard to a timer in the utility room, you just need a 2.5 t&e to the timer from the board.

You could do it from a socket in the dining room, but problems on the outdoor socket would trip your main house sockets RCD, although an isloator switch beside the socket you loop from would allow you to reset after isolating the circuit with that switch.

A 5 x 2.5 swa would probably do you for 2 channel timing out from the timer instead of 2 seperate 3 core swa`s if you use a twin outdoor socket as they have their own seperate terminals in each half of the twin socket i think.

paddy147

robbie7730 wrote: »

If you do go from the house fuseboard to a timer in the utility room, you just need a 2.5 t&e to the timer from the board.

You could do it from a socket in the dining room, but problems on the outdoor socket would trip your main house sockets RCD, although an isloator switch beside the socket you loop from would allow you to reset after isolating the circuit with that switch.

A 5 x 2.5 swa would probably do you for 2 channel timing out from the timer instead of 2 seperate 3 core swa`s if you use a twin outdoor socket as they have their own seperate terminals in each half of the twin socket i think.

Thanks very much for that.:)

I would go from the fuseboard itself,than off an existing socket in the kitchen,for the very reason you have pointed out.

Im presuming that a 5 x 2.5 SWA means a 5 core 2.5 square SWA,Yes??

Is that thick SWA?

The 3 core 10 square SWA that I previously ran was just on 19mm thick.


Also,would an MK outdoor 2 gang/double socket and lid do the trick??


Thanks.

Bruthal

A 4 x 2.5 (4 core 2.5 square SWA) is all you need in fact and would be a good bit smaller than the 3x10. It just saves you running 2 seperate 3x2.5 cables, glanding etc. The same earth and neutral will do for both sockets but now you have 2 Live conductors for the 2 timer channels.

A twin outdoor MK socket should be good. They have each half of the socket with seperate terminals as far as i remember, so you just loop the earth and neutral, and then a live to each using the 2 other cores so they can be timed seperately.

M cebee

dunno what he's doing but i wouldn't use 2 separate phase/line conductors for a double socket like that:D

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

dunno what he's doing but i wouldn't use 2 separate phase/line conductors for a double socket like that:D

He is putting a twin outdoor socket up with seperate timer channels to each apparently. Maybe 2 cables is better alright. But would need 2 seperate sockets to keep ye happy:)

M cebee

i meant 2 sockets

could be dodgy switching both sides of a socket separately like that


might not be a big deal i suppose-if there's a switched spur for socket

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

i meant 2 sockets

could be dodgy switching both sides of a socket separately like that

I know, im agreein with ye:pac:

paddy147

My woman says that the pond pump "has" to be on 24/7,but it uses shag all electricity.Its to do with the watwr quality and fish survival.

So apparently now,I dont need a timer,just a normal run of SWA from garage fuseboard to an MK outdoor double socket.

With regards the garden lights,she said to me "ah sure just stick down some solar lights and that will be grand.".


Bleedin women eh???:pac::D

Bruthal

You should put in 5 timers, she will change her mind. Women can never ,make up their mind, or can they:eek:

M cebee

haven't read through thread but usually you'd you'd be using an extra core at least to allow for separate control of lighting and pumps if that's what's planned

lights via photocell and timer

-photocell on and timer off

paddy147

robbie7730 wrote: »

You should put in 5 timers, she will change her mind. Women can never ,make up their mind, or can they:eek:

I give in at this stage.I bet that the pond location will now be changed too.:pac:

Bruthal

paddy147 wrote: »

I give in at this stage.I bet that the pond location will now be changed too.:pac:

What pond is this now paddy:D

paddy147

robbie7730 wrote: »

What pond is this now paddy:D

Shes building some type of large rectangular shaped raised pond from railway sleepers and pond liner and then shes going to put in somewater plants and flowers and stock it with some koi carp.She did up a garden design plan on her PC.

Shes actually worse than me (if that can be believed).:D

Bruthal

If i was putting in circuits for a pond i would use an outdoor JB or enclosure myself and a multicore cable or 2 to it from the house. Then you have more options as well.

Carlow52

paddy147 wrote: »

Shes building some type of large rectangular shaped raised pond from railway sleepers and pond liner and then shes going to put in some water plants and flowers and stock it with some koi carp.She did up a garden design plan on her PC.

Shes actually worse than me (if that can be believed).:D

whats the plan for keeping the cranes away from the ajh carp:D

My neighour has a problem with them, he bought a plastic one and they just land on it.

Think about some supports for netting over it.

She did up a garden design plan on her PC.

project it on the wall as in Bladerunner

Bruthal

Carlow52 wrote: »

whats the plan for keeping the cranes away from the ajh carp:D

My neighour has a problem with them, he bought a plastic one and they just land on it.

Think about some supports for netting over it.

They will be down alright, the heron`s. Cleared out the uncles one before of all the bigger fish.

paddy147

A couple of runs of heavy duty plant climbing wire accorss the pond area.

Her dad has a large Koi Carp pond in his back garden with about 40 fish,and he did the same after a heron took some of his fish stock 5 years ago.

He hasnt lost a fish since then,thanks to the climbing wire trick.:)

paddy147

Is 5 runs of ducting (complete with fish wires) enough for garage services/garden and future proofing?:D

1 for 3 core 10sq SWA to feed the garage
1 for water supply to garage
1 for 6 core alarm and cat5e cables to garage
1 for smaller SWA for outdoor pond/light socket
1 for a spare duct to garage ir garden,with regards the future.


Maybe a co-ax for a small flatscreen TV in the garage?

Or am I loosing the plot now??

I must be bleedin mad at this stage.:pac::pac:

paddy147

I might just keep it simple and run the SWA from the garage fuseboard out to the location of the outdoor socket,where the pond will be.

If I get the floorboards in the house pulled up again to run from the mains fuseboard,she will fcuking well kill me,and I will probably end up in the trench with the ducting.:(


Maybe just keep is simple and go from the garage fuse board and leave out the timer setup.

cast_iron

paddy147 wrote: »

Maybe just keep is simple and go from the garage fuse board

That would be best I think. Run a 4x2.5 if you don't mind paying the small bit extra for provision down the line.

You can still install a timer at the shed board of you like in any case. It won't need much adjusting once set up so having it in the shed wouldn't be such a problem.

paddy147

cast_iron wrote: »

That would be best I think. Run a 4x2.5 if you don't mind paying the small bit extra for provision down the line.

Cool.

Can I ask what you mean by a "small bit extra for provision down the line"?

Thanks.:)

cast_iron

Paying for the extra core of copper:) (otherwise just buy a 3x2.5)
It ain't cheap to be buying for no good reason.
If you think you might use it in future, then it's worth it, otherwise it's a waste of money.

paddy147

cast_iron wrote: »

Paying for the extra core of copper:) (otherwise just buy a 3x2.5)
It ain't cheap to be buying for no good reason.
If you think you might use it in future, then it's worth it, otherwise it's a waste of money.

Thanks.:)

paddy147

Right,my girlfriend now wants to be able to switch on and off the pond pump and garden lights seperately from the kitchen,via a light switch plate.

So Ive found a route from the mains house fuseboard accross the house and down into the kitchen.

I got a double outdoor socket box off a mate of mine today,he had it spare,so he gave it to me for the price of a few beers.:)

I was going to get some normal 2.5 twin and earth run from the house fuse board down to the location on the kitchen wall.

At this location I was going to install a chrome double wall switch plate.And then from this switch plate run the length of SWA out to the outdoor socket in the garden.

1 switch on the wall switch would be for the pond pump and the other would be for the garden lights.

Would 3 core 2.5 square SWA be ok to use from the double switch plate in the kitchen out to the double socket,or do I need 4 core 2.5 SWA???

Also would 2.5 twin and earth be ok to use from the mains fuseboard to the double light switch plate in the kitchen?

Thanks.:)

Bruthal

You will want 4 core 2.5 swa out. I would ise an Outdoor JB if it was me anyway. An RCD or RCDO will be needed on the circuit anyway whatever you put on the end of the circuit. Some would say 2 switchable supplies onto a single twin socket unit is not great practice. Im in the middle on it as its really the same circuit, we often see it on 2 or 3 gang switches in houses, but probably would not be expected on a 2 gang socket, just one half can be off and the other on and vice versa. Id do it myself alright in my own garden. Assuming the outdoor 2 gang socket you have can have each half wired seperate.

For a pond i would of used the JB option anyway. Fixed connections, 10 amp breaker in board.

paddy147

robbie7730 wrote: »

You will want 4 core 2.5 swa out. I would ise an Outdoor JB if it was me anyway. An RCD or RCDO will be needed on the circuit anyway whatever you put on the end of the circuit.

I actually have about 12-13 meters of 3 core 2.5 SWA sitting in the shed in my mothers house,would that be any use?

Install RCD at fuse board and run normal 2.5 twin and earth from the house fuse board to the new double switch location in the kitchen...yes?




Then 3 or 4 core 2.5 SWA from the double switch location out to the double switch plate out to the double outdoor socket....yes?


Thanks.:)


P.S-Heres a pic of the double wall switchs that are in my house (I have to by a new 1 tomorrow for the kitchen)

paddy147

robbie7730 wrote: »

For a pond i would of used the JB option anyway. Fixed connections, 10 amp breaker in board.

Can you tell me or show me more plase,as Im not fully with it here.

Bruthal

Yes thats about it, and a 16 amp MCB from the new RCD or a 16 amp RCBO would do fine.

M cebee

rcbo at fuse board or a spur off a socket circuit would do

rated double switch or else use an apt and photocell for pond and lights

4-core out to pond and make provision for isolating power at pond

most of the sockets i see can't be split

if ive forgotten anything its the drink:)

paddy147

robbie7730 wrote: »

Yes thats about it, and a 16 amp MCB from the new RCD or a 16 amp RCBO would do fine.

Theres about 12 meters of 3 core 2.5 SWA sitting in the back of the shed in my mothers house,would that be ok to use from a double switch plate to a double socket,or does it have to be 4 core 2.5 SWA??

thanks.

Bruthal

paddy147 wrote: »

Can you tell me or show me more plase,as Im not fully with it here.

Well there is no real need for an outdoor socket in that situation, a fully weatherproof outdoor JB would be better, swa into it into din rail connectors, and your cables out to pumps and garden lights from the connectors. If you want outdoor sockets for other purposes you can just wire the one you have from garage in addition to the JB from house.

Bruthal

paddy147 wrote: »

Theres about 12 meters of 3 core 2.5 SWA sitting in the back of the shed in my mothers house,would that be ok to use from a double switch plate to a double socket,or does it have to be 4 core 2.5 SWA??

thanks.

You would need 4 cores out from 2 gang switches, Live 1 and Live 2 for each switch (lights & pump), neutral and earth. If its light switches your using then a 10 amp MCB would be better, which will be fine if the twin sockets are dedicated for lights and pond pump. Is pump 230v or 12 volt? Probably has a waterproof traffo on it maybe.

But again, JB is what i have used in the past for such setups.

paddy147

So am I right in saying or thinking that this junction box method does away with the need for an outdoor socket and that you cut the plugs off the pond pump and outdoor lights and you "hard wire" them into the junction box and onto the SWA.

And the SWA then goes back to the double switch plate in the kitchen?

And the switch plate is wired back to the fuse board with twin and earth and RCDed too?

And if I want to turn the garden lights off,then I just hit the switch on the kitchen well?



Is that how it works??

Bruthal

You could even use an outdoor weatherproof 3 phase isolator as your JB, and it could isolate everthing as well.

paddy147

I,ll never make for an electricain.(lol):pac:

Bruthal

paddy147 wrote: »

So am I right in saying or thinking that this junction box method does away with the need for an outdoor socket and that you cut the plugs off the pond pump and outdoor lights and you "hard wire" them into the junction box and onto the SWA.

And the SWA then goes back to the double switch plate in the kitchen?

And the switch plate is wired back to the fuse board with twin and earth and RCDed too?

And if I want to turn the garden lights off,then I just hit the switch on the kitchen well?



Is that how it works??

Yes thats about it. I think a small outdoor isolator might work well for that. The type with the red rotary switch on them.

Bruthal

paddy147 wrote: »

I,ll never make for an electricain.(lol):pac:

Neither will i :eek: