Todays English Grand National

IrishHomer

Am i the only one to be upset by today's grand national?

I have been watching it for the past 40yrs and always got carried away with the hype, but sadly today i saw the real behind the scenes carnage that we are not supposed to see.

On th esecond lap Two fences of the thirty were bypassed due to dead horses.

Last grand national i will watch another cruel example of our misuse of animals.

brianthomas

It's always been a terrible race. I never watch anymore. It's just too much for the horses. Should be downsized for the sake of the animals.

Shazanne

You're not the only one. I was terribly upset by it too. I could not get over the thought that these two beautiful animals were led to their death today just to entertain people. And they had no choice in the matter. It's no better than dog-fighting and is definitely animal cruelty.
I have been thinking about it ever since. Are there any animals groups that protest at these types of events (the Grand National in particular?) as I would certainly join them.

Im Only 71Kg

it's a great race. highlight of the racing calender for me.

keith gallagher

It happens in racing every day. It can even happen during training. I'm not saying its right but these days horses are mainly bred for racing or showjumping.

Im Only 71Kg

i dont know where you're going with the animal cruelty thing..it's absolute nonsense..

keith gallagher

The jockeys risk their own lives too.

paultf

My sister was at a local point-to-point a couple of weeks ago and 2 horses had to be put down. Seems to be the norm, sadly.

Shazanne

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

i dont know where you're going with the animal cruelty thing..it's absolute nonsense..

Two horses are led out to run a high-stakes race, fall and break their back/neck, scream in agony until the vet can get to them and are then shot. Where is the "absolute nonsense" in that?
I feel very strongly about anything that cause suffering of any kind to an animal. I cannot accept that such suffering has/is being caused for human entertainment.

Slattsy

Get a hobby ffs !

ISDW

IrishHomer wrote: »

Am i the only one to be upset by today's grand national?

I have been watching it for the past 40yrs and always got carried away with the hype, but sadly today i saw the real behind the scenes carnage that we are not supposed to see.

On th esecond lap Two fences of the thirty were bypassed due to dead horses.

Last grand national i will watch another cruel example of our misuse of animals.

I stopped watching it years ago because of the rate of horse mortality.

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

i dont know where you're going with the animal cruelty thing..it's absolute nonsense..

What would you call 2 horses dying?

keith gallagher wrote: »

The jockeys risk their own lives too.

And it is the jockey's choice whether or not to take part, the horses don't really have that option.

Shazanne

Slattsy wrote: »

Get a hobby ffs !

I have several hobbies - none of which involve inflicting suffering on anyone or anything else! I also have a heart and a conscience - you??

Im Only 71Kg

Shazanne wrote: »

Two horses are led out to run a high-stakes race, fall and break their back/neck, scream in agony until the vet can get to them and are then shot. Where is the "absolute nonsense" in that?
I feel very strongly about anything that cause suffering of any kind to an animal. I cannot accept that such suffering has/is being caused for human entertainment.[/QUOTE

...they are animals. you seem to have an irrational emotional attachment which i and many people dont have.

ISDW

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

...they are animals. you seem to have an irrational emotional attachment which i and many people dont have.

I don't see an emotional attachment in the OP's attitude, I see a humanitarian attitude, that doesn't understand why an animal has to die just to entertain people

Shanao

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

...they are animals. you seem to have an irrational emotional attachment which i and many people dont have.

Do tell us just which part of respecting our fellow creatures and abhorring animal cruelty is irrational? So if they were two humans who had fallen and died no one would have cared? Doubtful? What exactly makes us so high and mighty amongst the rest of the animals might I ask? We're the only creatures that kill for sport and abuse both our own kind and others for fun, so why exactly do people have no problem with innocent animals dying for our entertainment?
This may astound you to learn, but quite a lot of people have that very same 'irrational' attachment.

Slattsy

Shazanne wrote: »

I have several hobbies - none of which involve inflicting suffering on anyone or anything else! I also have a heart and a conscience - you??

Nope was born without a heart, im a medical marvel.

On a serious note, you have to realise that these horses were born and bred to race. Horses racing/ breeding is a multi-billion pound business, yes business.

Clearly its unfortunate, no one actually wants to hear that a horse has died, but thats what it is. Dont watch racing and pay no heed to anything on the subject to avoid any further unhappiness you may feel in the future. You'll be sorted then !!

You know, there's a young jockey in critical condition in hospital tonight after a fall earlier... lets put this into perspective here please !! Ridiculous.

doctor evil

Shazanne wrote: »

Two horses are led out to run a high-stakes race, fall and break their back/neck, scream in agony until the vet can get to them and are then shot. Where is the "absolute nonsense" in that?
I feel very strongly about anything that cause suffering of any kind to an animal. I cannot accept that such suffering has/is being caused for human entertainment.

How do you know they were screaming in agony, wouldn't they be dead if they broke their neck? These horses are treated like top athletes and are not just entered into the race for the heck of it.

Horses can injure and kill themselves in lots of situations. I have a very big thing about not leaving head collars on in the stable.

Im Only 71Kg

it doesn't have to die..it just has to jump all the fences..it's unfortunate that there is a fatality on occasion. thats not intentional..it's in no way animal cruelty..to say that horse racing is cruel is ridiculous. they're animals bred for racing/jumping/hurdling by professionals in the field.

pokertalk

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

it doesn't have to die..it just has to jump all the fences..it's unfortunate that there is a fatality on occasion. thats not intentional..it's in no way animal cruelty..to say that horse racing is cruel is ridiculous. they're animals bred for racing/jumping/hurdling by professionals in the field.

so if the horse has not being performing well for a while what becomes of them then. i have heard some horror stories of so called usless horses
and this from well known trainers mouth

PeakOutput

ISDW wrote: »

What would you call 2 horses dying?

an accident obviously, just because an animal dies does not necessarily mean it was the victim of cruelty of any kind

there are dog events were dogs are 'led out' / 'forced' to jump over obstacles and such. if one was to have an accident and trip going over a fence and break its neck would you argue that it was a cruel and sadistic sport? i doubt it

the horses don't really have that option.

read the thread in after hours horses are not easily forced to do anything

ISDW wrote: »

I don't see an emotional attachment in the OP's attitude, I see a humanitarian attitude, that doesn't understand why an animal has to die just to entertain people

i guarantee you that nobody(well as good as nobody there are always a few sickos) watching was entertained by the deaths of the horses

so if the horse has not being performing well for a while what becomes of them then. i have heard some horror stories of so called usless horses
and this from well known trainers mouth

thats a problem with individual people not the sport in general, you cant criticise a sport for the actions of individuals away from the actual sporting events. there is nothing, nothing, inherently cruel about horse racing

R P McMurphy

pokertalk wrote: »

so if the horse has not being performing well for a while what becomes of them then. i have heard some horror stories of so called usless horses
and this from well known trainers mouth

The vast majority of these horses are extremely well cared for both when active and retired. I do think they need to look at this race again, reduce number of riders and make lower jumps. A lot of trainers and all involved at the stables would have a close attachment to the horses as they work with them everyday

pokertalk

well he talked about it without even blinkingan eye which may suggest that this kind of thing is the norm so maybe it goes on more than you think he used the words usless bastards when refering to horses before having them shot

Shazanne

I understand that horse racing in general is not a cruel sport. But this thread is specifically about the English Grand National, which has for many years been hotly debated as being cruel to horses. Primarily there are justified concerns about the number of horses permitted to take part, as well as concerns about the course itself. If you note from the statistics given above there are almost always equine fatalities as a result of this race - surely this fact alone should be enough to brand the event as dangerous and cruel to horses.
I would ask that posters concentrate on this particular race and not generalise horse racing.

ISDW

Thank you Shazanne, I was about to come on and make the same point. I never said horse racing was cruel, we are talking about this specific race. It has been discussed for many years and I think its time it was either stopped altogether or the jumps were altered.

pokertalk

R P McMurphy wrote: »

The vast majority of these horses are extremely well cared for both when active and retired. I do think they need to look at this race again, reduce number of riders and make lower jumps. A lot of trainers and all involved at the stables would have a close attachment to the horses as they work with them everyday

but at the end of the day trainers breeders are there for the money and that would be all of them not the vast majority

ISDW

PeakOutput wrote: »

an accident obviously, just because an animal dies does not necessarily mean it was the victim of cruelty of any kind

there are dog events were dogs are 'led out' / 'forced' to jump over obstacles and such. if one was to have an accident and trip going over a fence and break its neck would you argue that it was a cruel and sadistic sport? i doubt it



read the thread in after hours horses are not easily forced to do anything



i guarantee you that nobody(well as good as nobody there are always a few sickos) watching was entertained by the deaths of the horses



thats a problem with individual people not the sport in general, you cant criticise a sport for the actions of individuals away from the actual sporting events. there is nothing, nothing, inherently cruel about horse racing

Can you please tell me an event where dogs are forced to jump obstacles.

I don't watch this race, I haven't watched it for a long time, so I don't know, but when was the last time this particular race was run with no horse fatalities? I know the average for this meet is 3 horse deaths each year. Surely that is cruelty and they are needless deaths for human entertainment?

pokertalk

ISDW wrote: »

Can you please tell me an event where dogs are forced to jump obstacles.

I don't watch this race, I haven't watched it for a long time, so I don't know, but when was the last time this particular race was run with no horse fatalities? I know the average for this meet is 3 horse deaths each year. Surely that is cruelty and they are needless deaths for human entertainment?

they use hurdles in greyhound racing which is another sport i have problems with

ISDW

pokertalk wrote: »

they use hurdles in greyhound racing

And you've obviously never read my views on greyhound racing:D But still, there is nobody forcing the dog to go over the obstacles, if they decide they're not going to jump, they won't, with a horse, the jockey will urge them on.

PeakOutput

ISDW wrote: »

Can you please tell me an event where dogs are forced to jump obstacles.

agility competitions have hurdles amongst other obstacles dont they i might be mixing up the name but im pretty sure i have seen people discussing training their dogs to do this on this very board

pokertalk

ISDW wrote: »

And you've obviously never read my views on greyhound racing:D But still, there is nobody forcing the dog to go over the obstacles, if they decide they're not going to jump, they won't, with a horse, the jockey will urge them on.

ohhh i have read your opinons on greyhound racing and alot of them mirror my own but thats a whole other thread:)

ISDW

PeakOutput wrote: »

agility competitions have hurdles amongst other obstacles dont they i might be mixing up the name but im pretty sure i have seen people discussing training their dogs to do this on this very board

Yes, and the dog has the option of not jumping the obstacle, they aren't on a lead or attached to the handler, if the dog wants to turn around and run the other way, they can.

PeakOutput

ISDW wrote: »

And you've obviously never read my views on greyhound racing:D But still, there is nobody forcing the dog to go over the obstacles, if they decide they're not going to jump, they won't, with a horse, the jockey will urge them on.

if a horse dosn't want to jump it won't it really is that simple

ISDW

pokertalk wrote: »

ohhh i have read your opinions on greyhound racing and alot of them mirror my own but thats a whole other thread:)

I think yes, we probably have very similar feelings, sorry its late, and I was getting usernames mixed up there for a minute:P

ISDW

PeakOutput wrote: »

if a horse dosn't want to jump it won't it really is that simple

Really, a jockey will never use a whip or their legs to make a horse go on and attempt a jump?

So, as we've ascertained that we are talking about this particular race, do you think that the course and jumps are acceptable, and they don't need to be looked at, and maybe lowered?

amacachi

I love horse racing in principle and love the National especially but today was horrible. Was wondering about the chequered flags they were waving and then saw them avoid the fence and the canvas over the horse was awful. Then when I saw them avoid the second time I knew what was coming again.

It's an easily loaded question though, I love the Grand National but today really was awful. Especially when the deaths were done and confirmed so quickly.

amacachi

ISDW wrote: »

Really, a jockey will never use a whip or their legs to make a horse go on and attempt a jump?

So, as we've ascertained that we are talking about this particular race, do you think that the course and jumps are acceptable, and they don't need to be looked at, and maybe lowered?

They might go further than I would like to say I would but having seen most of them after a bad fall they seem really cut up about it. It's just part of the job for them.

PeakOutput

ISDW wrote: »

Really, a jockey will never use a whip or their legs to make a horse go on and attempt a jump?

So, as we've ascertained that we are talking about this particular race, do you think that the course and jumps are acceptable, and they don't need to be looked at, and maybe lowered?

i think that this is a tough and potentially dangerous race

i think that the owners and trainers love their horses and only enter them if they feel they are up to it, sometimes they are wrong, sometimes they are right and accidents still happen

when accidents happen the horses are given the best possible care and they are quickly killed if it is serious so they do not suffer very long if at all

I don't have a problem with any of that

amacachi

PeakOutput wrote: »

i think that this is a tough and potentially dangerous race

i think that the owners and trainers love their horses and only enter them if they feel they are up to it, sometimes they are wrong, sometimes they are right and accidents still happen

when accidents happen the horses are given the best possible care and they are quickly killed if it is serious so they do not suffer very long if at all

I don't have a problem with any of that

Though to answer the loaded points that were made through the thread I'm sure you'll agree that it is awful to see horses fall and die as they did today.

PeakOutput

amacachi wrote: »

Though to answer the loaded points that were made through the thread I'm sure you'll agree that it is awful to see horses fall and die as they did today.

i didnt see it today so i dont know if it was particularly awful or graphic or anything but ye of course i dont want to see horses die like that

bryaner

I love horses but unfortunately this is collateral damage in horse racing, in saying that 99% of horses in training have wonderful lives with all perks.

amacachi

PeakOutput wrote: »

i didnt see it today so i dont know if it was particularly awful or graphic or anything but ye of course i dont want to see horses die like that

It was pretty awful tbh. Heavy falls and skipped jumps and plastic covering the horses, didn't leave a lot to the imagination.

Cocolola

It is disgraceful that this is still going on these days. And I don't care how much people say what a great life the horses lead, tell that to the ones that die horrific deaths every year.

Also, saying that they are bred to race and that it's a business etc, doesn't make it ok.

Link to the Daily Mail pictures. They're hard to look at though.

Im Only 71Kg

how many people are homeless..living on the streets..starving or freezing to death. why dont you write a post about this in the humanities forum. why dont you go and do something about this? rather than post up some sensational nonsense about horses dying while doing the job they were bred to do.

Cocolola

Because I choose to post about it. Animals and animal welfare is where my main concern lies. There are people who care about other people, there are people who care about animals, there are even people who manage to care about both.

I see you have no posts in the humanities forum yourself by the way.

mikemac

Trainers know their horses and the horse should be ready for this grueling race.

They live like athletes and have the best of care for their lives.

Yes, horses die but it's only two horses and several hundred at a guess ran at Aintree for this meeting over the last few days.

Shazanne wrote: »

Are there any animals groups that protest at these types of events (the Grand National in particular?) as I would certainly join them.

Of course. They even manage to disrupt it sometimes

Shanao wrote: »

What exactly makes us so high and mighty amongst the rest of the animals might I ask? We're the only creatures that kill for sport and abuse both our own kind and others for fun,

Familiar with cats?

Our cat brings back birds and tortures/plays with them. Usually end up getting the bird from her and putting it out of its misery.

And tomcats try to kill new born kittens
Only ones that kill for sport?

amacachi

feelingstressed wrote: »

Of course. They even manage to disrupt it sometimes

I think they're known as "arseholes". Putting themselves in horses' paths, putting themselves, the jockeys and the horses all in danger.

Cocolola

feelingstressed wrote: »

And tomcats try to kill new born kittens
Only ones that kill for sport?

As far as I know, Tom cats kill kittens that aren't their own offspring to ensure that only their genes are passed on and so as to bring the mother back into heat quicker and therefore allow him to mate with her.

Nothing to do with killing for fun or sport.

And from this article http://www.suite101.com/content/why-cats-play-with-their-prey-a86865 (which I just Googled so not sure how accurate it is)

Many people believe that cats play with the small animals they hunt for fun, but this is not the case. Cats have an instinct to play with their prey because it’s the only way they can make a kill without risking injury.

pokertalk

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

how many people are homeless..living on the streets..starving or freezing to death. why dont you write a post about this in the humanities forum. why dont you go and do something about this? rather than post up some sensational nonsense about horses dying while doing the job they were bred to do.

what a stupit comment. this forum is for discussions that are animal related yes its terrible that we have so many homeless but that has nothing to do with this topic or forum

Hellrazer

This thread seems to have nose dived.

While there is no doubt that its an emotive issue can we all take a step back and calm down.

Discodog

Horse racing, Greyhound racing, Coursing etc are all the same in that the animals are bred to entertain & make money, especially from betting revenues. The animals are totally disposable once they cease to make money.

In the UK about 160 thoroughbred race horses die per year at the track & a further 260 per year are killed due to injuries or economic viability. There is a list here:

http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/

Due to recession huge numbers of race horses have been slaughtered, including in Ireland, despite the fact that many are owned by millionaires. As with Greyhounds the industry paints a picture of animals being cared for in luxury which is true provided that the animal is making money or has the potential to do so.

Yes people do peacefully object & protest in the UK. Their actions have been one of the key factors in the terminal decline of Greyhound racing & the death of Coursing.

Personally I disagree with the sanitisation & the well rehearsed procedures that hide the distasteful from the public. If people are going to attend Horse or Greyhound racing they should not be shielded from knowing the real cost of their entertainment. I wonder how many people would "enjoy" the "great night out" portrayed by Greyhound stadiums if they knew that at least 10,000 Greyhounds are killed every year ?.

As Pet owners we accept the responsibility to care for our animals from cradle to grave. Racing people have a totally different perspective.

Is racing cruel ?. The accepted definition of cruelty is the causing of unnecessary suffering. The problem comes in defining unnecessary. To an animal lover these deaths & injuries are totally unnecessary whereas to the owner they are just collateral damage.

Cookie_Monster

Discodog wrote: »

Horse racing, Greyhound racing, Coursing etc are all the same in that the animals are bred to entertain & make money, especially from betting revenues. The animals are totally disposable once they cease to make money..

+1 on all that post.

These animals are nothing more than stock to these people, it's a disgraceful sport that does nothing except exploit animals for people's sick entertainment. Maybe you can argue it's not cruelty but it is without question exploitation.