Media hostility towards metal and prog

nyarlothothep

Just putting it out there but do you ever get the sense that a lot of music journos have a certain awkwardness/indifference or downright hostility towards prog and to a lesser extent, I'm assuming, metal? For example while you'll get many an article fawning over indie punk band x there aren't so many on say Opeth. In fact reading the Ticket today I was completely surprised to see a short and positive gig review of Children of Bodom, so there are exceptions I guess but my impression is that a lot of music critics will tend towards promoting punk and indie while ridiculing prog bands like Yes. I think that instead of another proto punk garage or grunge revival it would be really cool if prog made a major comeback. Its one of the most versatile genres in music, you can do anything with it.

Nailz

I've noticed that Rock and Metal has been almost ignored. But yes, I've seen some scorn by some idiot who wrote for the Guardian (yes, I realise the irony in that sentence) who wrote shït about Rage Against the Machine when that whole Christman No. 1 thing was going on and started talking about how he grew up listening to great artists like Stevie Wonder and some other crap band from the 80's who played cheesy keyboard chart dung — I laughed, he's obviously never listened to Putrid Pile. But in fairness I rarely see much else from journalists. I just don't see Metal, Prog & Jazz being reviewed much.

I hate the way Metal has become slightly more popular than it used to be, not because I'm an elitist or anything but there's certainly more idiots listening to the music and going to the gigs which genuine fans can do without.

If one genre was to come and start ripping up the mainstream that would be one of my favourite genres — Avant Garde, maybe a bit of Progressive Jazz too, great stuff. That'll fück shït up for sure!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJWfBer_u2c

Malice

I've never seen an article ridiculing Yes. If you have then please stick up a link to it, I'd love to read it. As for journalists being awkward with, indifferent to or hostile to metal you've pretty much covered all the angles unless they actually like metal .

Malice

Nailz wrote: »

I've seen some scorn by some idiot who wrote for the Guardian (yes, I realise the irony in that sentence) who wrote shït about Rage Against the Machine when that whole Christman No. 1 thing was going on and started talking about how he grew up listening to great artists like Stevie Wonder and some other crap band from the 80's who played cheesy keyboard chart dung — I laughed, he's obviously never listened to Putrid Pile.

I'm going to have to drag this a bit off-topic. The RATM number 1 thing was a a cop out in my opinion for two main reasons:
First off the message of the song is "Fuck you I won't do what you tell me." but then people went out and did exactly that - buy a single because someone told them to.
Secondly both record companies (Epic and Syco) are owned by Sony so the whole idea of sticking it to the record company for pushing manufactured pop crap fell flat because Sony profited regardless.

Now, I've no idea what the guy from The Guardian wrote but if it was anything along the lines of the above then he was right.

As for Stevie Wonder, I realise this is the Rock & Metal forum but I think we should all be able to agree that he is a highly talented musician and songwriter. And I've never listened to Putrid Pile either

Nailz wrote:

I hate the way Metal has become slightly more popular than it used to be, not because I'm an elitist or anything but there's certainly more idiots listening to the music and going to the gigs which genuine fans can do without.

How can someone come across as an idiot just for listening to metal and what constitutes a genuine fan?

JBnaglfar

I can't say I have noticed very much media hostility towards prog or metal, but I rarely come across much media coverage at all of those genres. Reading the mention of The Ticket in the OP, it reminds me of a review I read in the Ticket of Opeth's Watershed album. It was given a rave review, hailed as their latest masterpiece to my pleasant surprise.

I don't think the mainstream media is as harsh today towards prog anyway, not sure about metal. Beyond the Lighted Stage describes a whole lot of negative press directed at Rush back in the day. In comparison, there was a thread around here a while back about a recent positive article about Rush. Open to correction here, but I would be surprised if there was much media hostility towards prog and metal today.

Nailz

Malice wrote: »

I'm going to have to drag this a bit off-topic. The RATM number 1 thing was a a cop out in my opinion for two main reasons:
First off the message of the song is "Fuck you I won't do what you tell me." but then people went out and did exactly that - buy a single because someone told them to.
Secondly both record companies (Epic and Syco) are owned by Sony so the whole idea of sticking it to the record company for pushing manufactured pop crap fell flat because Sony profited regardless.

Now, I've no idea what the guy from The Guardian wrote but if it was anything along the lines of the above then he was right.

As for Stevie Wonder, I realise this is the Rock & Metal forum but I think we should all be able to agree that he is a highly talented musician and songwriter. And I've never listened to Putrid Pile either

How can someone come across as an idiot just for listening to metal and what constitutes a genuine fan?

In fact I totally agree with you as regards the RAtM Christmas No. 1 thing, absolutely — I even say the same things to most people I talk to when talking on the subject of the No. 1, the only thing I supported about the whole shenanigan was the fact I got to see them a second time in the Point last year. As you said, I would also agree with the article if that had to have been the subject at hand, but no, the article was tripe. It didn't have anything to do with where the money was going, how the populous of RAtM's sales to label ratio would work or anything remotely in this area, it was an attack on the style of music that they played.

It was all about how awful this type of music was, the angst and the crude words used, all this patronising crap about how civilized people couldn't listen to it, it was disgustingly generalistic and ignorant. And the thing is, this guy, from memory (so don't quote me on this), wasn't even a music reviewer, he was this dude expressing his point of view as the absolute truth — that's what got me all pissed off having him say stuff like how great Stevie Wonder and Lionel Richie (I remembered ) were in comparison and why can't people listen to more of these guys. Like, Malice, you mistook me and thought I meant that Stevie Wonder wasn't great and doesn't meet my very high standards :pac:, but I only meant that in how he was putting it.

As a matter of fact I love Stevie Wonder, as a lover of funk and funky bass it's hard not to have a soft spot for him. Don't have a bad word to say about Lionel Richie either, haha, this is like social suicide in the Rock & Metal forum... I do loves me easy listening I does! Well I'm a Faith No More fan, what do you expect.

Beekay

One funny thing I found when RATM got the christmas no.1 was when listening to news-talk repeat at night George Hook had a rant about them and said the usually blabber it being just noise:rolleyes: but a week later listening to the same show he used a snippet of Sleep Now In the Fire to introduce a section of the show

Also Tom Dunne on news-talk plays a bit of metal during his show on Fridays I think, woke up during the repeat one night when Cowboys From Hell started and then he played a bit of death metal (can't remember the band). He has also played a generous amount of Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath

Malice

Nailz wrote: »

I love Stevie Wonder, as a lover of funk and funky bass it's hard not to have a soft spot for him. Don't have a bad word to say about Lionel Richie either, haha, this is like social suicide in the Rock & Metal forum... I do loves me easy listening I does! Well I'm a Faith No More fan, what do you expect.

I find Rock & Metal fans to be far more accommodating towards other genres than the fans of those genres are in reverse. I am fundamentally a metal fan but I freely admit to liking some classical music and some hip hop for example. The reverse does not hold true in my experience. Anyone I know who is primarily a hip hop or classical music fan will dismiss metal as being noise.

Nailz

Oh, sorry Malice, I forgot to answer the last question of your most recent post;
What constitute a genuine fan? Well, I'm not entirely sure for the general populous, but for me it's perspective, I tend to pick on someone's personality and make my mind up from that. Seems a bit tedious and a bit vague, but I find it works for me.

I remember on a Thursday night after a long week at college and I was looking forward to kicking it at a rock pub my friends and I usually went too (changed owners sadly) and I went on and stuck on some EyeHateGod and FNM and other stuff as you do. Now, to tell the truth, I'm not the most metal looking guy if I have a shirt or a jacket over my tee, I'm a short haired guy with no tattoo's — but I was sitting down and some dude came up to me while I was enjoying "Self Medication Blues" and a dude came up to me and said "I see you've found Metal, shouldn't you be at the disco?". This was coming from a nerdy kid who does a video games design course, who does have long hair or tattoo's (which doesn't make a difference regardless), but was wearing a long sleeve Mudvayne T-Shirt and a jacket with a Mayhem patch on it.
Now I don't appreciate this type of ignorance towards me or anyone else, and was totally patronising and his attitude was very "yeah, look at me, I'm Metal, blah blah blah", but I just let it slide and put it under misguided stupidness, so I said nothing.

But he wasn't happy with me not responding to his hard rocker attitude, and told me to leave the pub which I've always went to or he would "Kick my ass", I knew he wouldn't, so I stayed put and told him to that I listen to probably a he'll of a lot more than he does spanning across many genres and to leave me alone.

I told him I put on the music and I told him what was next just so he could be sure — he attempted to apologise and I accepted because I'm not the type of guy to hold it against him. He asked me "How come you don't dress like you listen to Metal?".


Now that bugs me, the fact that someone regards somebody who listens to Metal as one who also dresses like they listen to me doesn't bode well for them, to me, it shows that someone is a poser, it's part of an image which they acquired, and maybe only do it because they think it's cool or hip or something like that. These aren't genuine fans, they can't be genuine fans, if this is their mentality then there is just no way. A lot of these type of people think to be Metal you must listen to only Metal which isn't the ****ing way, man, I'll be damned if I was stuck without everything else I listen to.

Maybe that's not a good enough answer to your question but I hope I made my point anyway!

nyarlothothep

In relation to the Yes criticism, it was in an interview with Jack Black for the Ticket. He was asked what his influences were, he mentioned Yes, Donald Clarke points out that he and his music critic peers spent a good lot of their youth trying to stamp out music like Yes in favour of punk rock.

I agree that the criticism isn't as ferocious as it used to be but I definately see a promotion of certain music scenes over others, I've read countless articles on the stone roses, madchester, britpop, nirvana, punk, post punk and the garage/post punk revival but very few on prog, prog metal or jazz rock scenes, not to mention all the other subcultures. For example later with Jools Holland is meant to be a music lovers show right? Then if he wants to stand by that he should have way more metal bands than just a token appearance of Metallica, because the rock segment which consists of skinny jeans indie rock bandS no.304-406 isn't showcasing original innovative music, its just tired rehashed crap produced by hipster posers who so badly want to fashion themselves in the image of their idols. I'm not saying metal has exclusivity with respect to interesting music but it would be a start. What about when the BBC cut Metallicas performance short at Live 8, what was all that about?

I was reading an article in the Ticket today about northern Irish music and how it was noted that there wasn't any dominant scene there, which I think is a good thing. All too often when one scene takes over it means bands have to conform to it if they want to get heard. I find this is the case with music mags promoting one kind of music over others, which is why I think with declining sales its probably a good thing that critics aren't as important as educators of "good musical taste. "

In relation to the more metal than thou thing, that is one of my main bugbears with metal, namely that it can be very conservative but you get that with any genre, especially ones which are on the margins moreso.

stateofflux

metal and prog is not allowed to exist in mainstream irish media, its too offensive to bland people...this is the land of louis walsh, **** 2nd hand xerox indie & "im an appalachian logger from d4 acoustic nonsense"

Nailz

stateofflux wrote: »

metal and prog is not allowed to exist in mainstream irish media, its too offensive to bland people...this is the land of louis walsh, **** 2nd hand xerox indie & "im an appalachian logger from d4 acoustic nonsense"

Got an interesting story about Louis Walsh that my father told me while ago that I think will fit in nicely with that post.

Back in the 70's independent progressive rock/rock bands were hard to come by here in Ireland (disregarding the wonderful popular Irish rock and blues bands of the time like Rory and Thin Lizzy) especially up were we live (Cavan, on the Monaghan border), despite the fact that Castleblaney is quite a big rock town now. So whenever a decent band came around my dad would always love to take the very rare occasion that was in it and go, but there was this hard rock — borderline progressive — band from the midlands that were apparently very good according to my dad, whom can't remember their name, and he saw them a few times I believe.

But this band were very obscure for their time, they would play in unused barns in the middle of the country playing to only the guys they'd brought with them and about 8 fellas like my dad, who weren't totally dedicated far out hippies but liked the music. So dad found out one time they were coming up to play in some field around Monaghan, he got talking to their bassist and loads of other dudes and then started talking to the manager..... And guess who their manager was?



That's right, a bit strange, eh?

120_Minutes

Rock/Metal is the red headed stepchild genre when it comes to the media, print or otherwise.


i'd say if you totted up the column inches and airtime it gets in the irish media, its less than 10%

Louis Walsh also managed Chips, who had Linda Martin singing for em....

Nailz

120_Minutes wrote: »

i'd say if you totted up the column inches and airtime it gets in the irish media, its less than 10%

Ah not even, I'd it'd be tight notching it up to 2%, once out of every fifty articles or airtime. I wouldn't even say it grabs that much airtime.

AaronEnnis

If anything, theres been more metal in the mainstream media than any time in the last few years. The sunday times ran a feature a few months ago, tom dunne runs bits every Friday, and the observer actually published a prog special based around Yes just before christmas.

If you actually think that mainstream media are going to go further than that to cover real metal, you're deluding yourself. Plus, its better with only the odd bit of exposure. Occasional nationwide coverage for a band/scene is great, but would you really want it to go beyond that? It certainly wouldnt seem fitting that some trendy journalist writes a one-column review for the new Doomsword album.

RayCon

Im 38, been listening to Metal/Hard Rock/Classic Rock since I was about 8 ... have to say my experience with the genre and the media coverage (Im lumping everything in here, Metal/Hard Rock/Classic Rock) has mostly always been one of ridicule. Its the one genre most lampooned, most dismissed, most ignored - yet the one that endures.

Theres a music snobery that exists - particularly in Ireland - were by people like to portray their intelligence by the music the purport to listen to. Within this mindset, Metal/Hard Rock/Classic Rock is viewed as idiotic and "neanderthalic" ...

**** 'em.


Having said that - thats why the likes Kerrang, Metal Hammer, Headbangers Ball & 60 Minutes started off ... and later - Classic Rock Mag .. there's always been a need/want - but mainstream media outlets didn't feed it ... now it's a bit more accepted but I put that down to the fact there must be people of my age group, who grew up liking what I liked - who are now in positions of authority within these media spaces, pushing what they've always loved and know there's a market for ...

nyarlothothep

Strange how the mainstream media ridicules something that endures? Is it an anti rock metal conspiracy, a plan to dumb down the listening tastes of the masses?!

scudzilla

When the media are having a 'quiet' moment they resort to lazy journalism, and unfortunately most of the time that means attacking the more diverse sections of society, Rock/Metal is just an easy target for them.

I remember years ago the day before Donington 88 the UK media just started slagging off metal fans in general, saying we were all trouble makers.

Course that didn't sit well, i think they'd had maybe 2/3 arrests at the previous 4 doningtons.

PeterIanStaker

I personally don't give a bollox what the mainstream music media thinks about metal, nor do I care for the opinions of magazines like Kerrapp or Metal Hammer as they are now, Kerrang will have Justin Bieber on the cover next.:rolleyes:

Mainstream music media: 'oh wow The (insert name of emaciated, underfed looking indie band here) are fantaaaastic'

Malice

It's interesting though isn't it that the likes of Kerrang in particular (both the magazine and the television channel) are regarded with such scorn by most of us?

Nailz

Malice wrote: »

It's interesting though isn't it that the likes of Kerrang in particular (both the magazine and the television channel) are regarded with such scorn by most of us?

That's because they play utter shït.



Case in point :pac:

nyarlothothep

Sometimes they might play the odd good tune like last night with under the bridge or we are the champions, very standard stuff but classics all the same. I just find it frustrating to watch though because they'll 30 seconds to mars or trivium and a million other clone bands, but I've yet to see a Meshuggah or Opeth song on their station or on scuzz for that matter. Even the vintage channel won't play the Pink Floyd live from Pompeii performance which is just fcking unreal and should be on television because its so mindblowingly awesome as a showcase of what a band can do if they reach maximum talent overload.

Malice

Nailz wrote: »

That's because they play utter shït.

Not all the time they don't and I suppose my point was more to ask why they bother when, if the general opinion on this forum is anything to go by, they really shouldn't. Unless of course we're in a minority and the perception among the general rock & metal public is that they're not so bad.

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I've yet to see a Meshuggah or Opeth song on their station or on scuzz for that matter.

When Obzen was released the video for Bleed was definitely on quite a bit.

Joe_Dull

Malice wrote: »

I find Rock & Metal fans to be far more accommodating towards other genres than the fans of those genres are in reverse. I am fundamentally a metal fan but I freely admit to liking some classical music and some hip hop for example. The reverse does not hold true in my experience. Anyone I know who is primarily a hip hop or classical music fan will dismiss metal as being noise.

I agree with you there, I'd have tastes ranging from metal to indie, electro, pop, ambient and even broadway, and I'll always try out something recommended me with an open mind (save some of the disingenuous manufactured sh1te in the charts). I haven't found the reverse to be true, and most people who mostly listen to chart stuff, or even dance or rap, just dismiss metal out of hand. Usually they're pretty rude about it, and it makes me apprehensive even mentioning metal when I'm asked what kind of music I listen to.

Sadly I think this definitely due in part to the majority of people naively thinking "Enter Sandman" represents the archetype of metal, knowing nothing of polyrhythms, extreme vocals, blastbeats (and the many other ingredients of good metal), so when they hear these the kneejerk reaction is ridicule. Surely the mainstream media is to blame to a certain extent that such a huge area of music remains comepletely unknown to most people. I'm not suggesting everyone should listen to metal, just that as I KNOW about indie people should KNOW about metal. For example, I never even knew screaming/growling existed until a friend showed me In Flames when I was about 15 - and that was a pretty serendipitous discovery. Just my 2c anyway.

nyarlothothep

Malice wrote: »

Not all the time they don't and I suppose my point was more to ask why they bother when, if the general opinion on this forum is anything to go by, they really shouldn't. Unless of course we're in a minority and the perception among the general rock & metal public is that they're not so bad.

When Obzen was released the video for Bleed was definitely on quite a bit.

hm, didn't know that, I'd like to see more music like that kerrangg though but a lot of it is music for teenyboppers so I guess not.

GLaDOS

At the porcupine tree gig, Steve Wilson referenced a preview some Irish journalist did of the gig that basically completely dismissed prog.

Malice

nyarlothothep wrote: »

hm, didn't know that, I'd like to see more music like that kerrangg though but a lot of it is music for teenyboppers so I guess not.

It's definitely biased towards the more well-known and media-friendly bands.

Angron

nyarlothothep wrote: »

bands, but I've yet to see a Meshuggah or Opeth song on their station or on scuzz for that matter.

I've seen Opeth on Scuzz before. Granted I've only seen the one song (Porcelain Heart). Occasionally you will get a good set, but it's usually only if they have a band in a specified slot, or if they are doing a series sort of this, like Black Sunday, where they played stuff from bands that had members die, like Type O Negative and Pantera.

Nailz

Malice wrote: »

Not all the time they don't and I suppose my point was more to ask why they bother when, if the general opinion on this forum is anything to go by, they really shouldn't. Unless of course we're in a minority and the perception among the general rock & metal public is that they're not so bad.

Probably because Metal isn't their audience anymore in my opinion, it's a magazine/channel for Emo's and mainstrea rockers like Metallica and GNR fans in my opinion — which is a big audience and sadly they have no time for Metal anymore, except for late night. I kind of knew it was going to happen when they had Eminem, that bollocks, on the front cover of Kerrang so many years ago.

So when you say we're in the minority, we probably are, in comparison to Emos and all that lark, I think we're blessed on this forum that we don't have too many threads about the Blackout, and thank fuck to that.
I think they have their money made on that, they don't need Metal fans for them to earn their keep.

RayCon

ScienceNerd wrote: »

At the porcupine tree gig, Steve Wilson referenced a preview some Irish journalist did of the gig that basically completely dismissed prog.

I think he said it was one of those free "Event" type papers ... he also said the paper referred to Supertramp as "Krautrock". :eek:

I seriously question the music journo credentials of someone contributing to those papers and coming out with statements like that.

spiritcrusher

I definitely think an awful lot of metalheads here have some sort of persecution complex. I really don't think metal gets as much stick in the media as some people would like to believe. Just because it doesn't get air time or coverage in mainstream press doesn't mean it's automatically condemned and slagged off by everyone else.
Being a more "extreme" form of music, by definition it is going to have nowhere near the popularity of the mainstream, which is what the vast majority wish to listen to. Perfectly acceptable, so why would mainstream newspapers, magazines, radio, TV try and cater to the odd 5-10% that listen to metal when they can appeal to a much larger demographic and generate more money? It's a niche market.

Most journalists in these areas don't know anything about metal and therefore why would they even bother? Half the time I think people are just looking to complain about how tough it is to be a metal fan. Poor us.
Truth be told, metal doesn't really need a huge amount of press anyway. It seems to survive alright no matter what. Just look at what happened grunge and punk, for example. They came along, forced metal underground but it kept coming back while how many other genres have pretty much fallen by the wayside?

DaylightDies

Nailz wrote: »

I've noticed that Rock and Metal has been almost ignored. But yes, I've seen some scorn by some idiot who wrote for the Guardian (yes, I realise the irony in that sentence) who wrote shït about Rage Against the Machine when that whole Christman No. 1 thing was going on and started talking about how he grew up listening to great artists like Stevie Wonder and some other crap band from the 80's who played cheesy keyboard chart dung — I laughed, he's obviously never listened to Putrid Pile. But in fairness I rarely see much else from journalists. I just don't see Metal, Prog & Jazz being reviewed much.

I hate the way Metal has become slightly more popular than it used to be, not because I'm an elitist or anything but there's certainly more idiots listening to the music and going to the gigs which genuine fans can do without.

If one genre was to come and start ripping up the mainstream that would be one of my favourite genres — Avant Garde, maybe a bit of Progressive Jazz too, great stuff. That'll fück shït up for sure!

I've been an Opeth fan for around 10 years at this stage and I've been to see them play 6 times and every time there was an increasing number of people sporting side fringes at their shows. I asked a chap what his favourite Opeth song was and he said Baying of the Hounds, lulz.

What sickens me is all these people getting into progressive rock/metal and they haven't a clue. I had a debate with some guy who claimed "Savatage have absolutely no progressive influences why you calling them Prog Metal they're just hair metal.." . I guess if you don't play 20 minute long songs the music hasn't got any progressive elements. :pac:

Malice

DaylightDies wrote: »

I asked a chap what his favourite Opeth song was and he said Baying of the Hounds, lulz.

No doubt I'm missing your point but that is an Opeth song isn't it so what's so funny about someone choosing that as their favourite?

RayCon

DaylightDies wrote: »

I've been an Opeth fan for around 10 years at this stage and I've been to see them play 6 times and every time there was an increasing number of people sporting side fringes at their shows. I asked a chap what his favourite Opeth song was and he said Baying of the Hounds, lulz.

What sickens me is all these people getting into progressive rock/metal and they haven't a clue. I had a debate with some guy who claimed "Savatage have absolutely no progressive influences why you calling them Prog Metal they're just hair metal.." . I guess if you don't play 20 minute long songs the music hasn't got any progressive elements. :pac:

Smacks of elitism bullcrap to me ...

I only started listening to Opeth when they released "Watershed" , and I was only drawn to them because I read Steve Wilson from Porcupine Tree was working with them ... Ive only seen them live once (Vicar St - Watershed tour) ... would you lulz at me too ? Am I not worthy of attending an Opeth gig ? Despite the fact Ive been going to Rock/Metal gigs since Thin Lizzy's Farewell in the RDS 1983 ....

greendom

Just to redress the balance a little on metal's hostility to the Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/metal

Joe_Dull

DaylightDies wrote: »

I asked a chap what his favourite Opeth song was and he said Baying of the Hounds, lulz.

That's one of my favourite Opeth songs :pac:

nyarlothothep

Joe_Dull wrote: »

That's one of my favourite Opeth songs :pac:

yeah thats a pretty good song, particularly near the end with the epic acoustic guitars, reminds of the siege at helms deep for some reason.

nyarlothothep

greendom wrote: »

Just to redress the balance a little on metal's hostility to the Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/metal

another reason for me to like the guardian, quality paper

Mushy

Joe_Dull wrote: »

That's one of my favourite Opeth songs :pac:

It is my favourite Opeth song, guess I better never show up again due to not being a fan long enough.

AhSureTisGrand

spiritcrusher wrote: »

Truth be told, metal doesn't really need a huge amount of press anyway. It seems to survive alright no matter what. Just look at what happened grunge and punk, for example. They came along, forced metal underground but it kept coming back while how many other genres have pretty much fallen by the wayside?

You can't kill The Metal...

Joe_Dull

Mushy wrote: »

It is my favourite Opeth song, guess I better never show up again due to not being a fan long enough.

It's a disgrace. There ought to be a mandatory headphone checkpoint at the venue. Any ticketholders who can't name clips from tracks older than "Blackwater Park" are refused admission.