Architect & Planning Permission Cost

LarryMac

Hi,
How much should I expect to pay an Architect to design an extension and organize Planning Permission. All in cost. It would be for a small ext to rear of house. I was told around €3000 ball park. Is this correct? Tanx!

sydthebeat

so many variables.....

will the architect be designing the extension, or simply regurgatating what you want?
what size are we talking about?
what if you need a complete rearrangement of the existing dwelling?
do you want a standard regular generic extension, or a unique piece of architecture?

BryanF

Larry,

3g for what?, you have to get someone around and spend time giving them the detail of what you want, before anyone should reach a price. Stop talking to the lads in the pub and get three or more quotes for the work you want and get references.

The confusion of fees/prices and rates is often due to an unclear set of service requirements. Write a list of what it is you want from the extension and what alterations you require made to your existing house. The clearer you can be, the easier it is for an architect to price fairly and competitively. I often ask clients for pictures or examples of what they want, this also helps.

When I here you only want design and planning I have to ask what happens after that? who prepares the tender/ construction drawings and who will manage the job. The money saved on getting a cheap initial arch service, is often wasted on unclear instructions to the contractor.

Save yourself time and money by making this list and be as comprehensive as you can, and realistic with your arch about what the budget is. architect fees can be a % of the works, but on an extension will generally be time related.

best of luck

LarryMac

Hi sydthebeat. I guess I should work out all the variables. It would be knocking down outside wall of kitchen that leads to back garden and adding another room in the garden space. Not sure of size or design. Just looking for pointers. Tanx

LarryMac

Hi BrianF. I have an Architect coming round next week for a chat. Just wanted to get info on what was needed and how much i'll need. I agree that it's better to have him Project Manage till the completion. Tanx for the reply.

BlackEdelweiss

I got priced from €350 to €3000 for exactly the same as what you are looking for, no need to tell you which one I chose.

FesterBeatty

You'll want another few quid for a structural engineer.

BryanF

BlackEdelweiss wrote: »

I got priced from €350 to €3000 for exactly the same as what you are looking for, no need to tell you which one I chose.

€350? I'd love to see the quality design and service you received...send us a copy of the drawings

what stage are you at?

Mellor

I'd be caertain that the e350 option will cause more problems down the line. likely more that 3k worth of problems

BlackEdelweiss

He is an architect who works for another architect and he does a few jobs on the side to earn a few euros. I am an engineer and I know what drawings look like and I have given the drawings to several contractors and none of them have voiced any concerns about the quality of the drawings. If the same guy charged me €1000 none of you would have questioned them, just because something is cheap dosent mean it is crap. It is only a basic extension and we already had drawings of our existing house, €350 is a fair price for that type of work.

BryanF

Excuse my presumptions, but i feel your misleading the OP.
your an engineer + you had existing drawings + its a 'only a basic extension' ie you require no thought what so every.
so what exactly did you require and what exactly did this guy do for 350

This seems to be moving away for the OP as imo you have miss lead him, because as an engineer, you already have construction knowledge and you require very little consultancy/ service

My clients often require extensive support, clear solutions, explanatory advice and an amount of meetings/revisions to finalise there requirements. making sure you provide a client with the best service, design solution and smooth planning process takes time and expertise.

I don't think its fare to confuse a guy draughting for an engineer with a client requiring a design and planning service.

BlackEdelweiss

Not all engineers are civil engineers and I have minimal experience of working on a building site. The price I got was nothing to do with my occupation it was to do with the fact that architects were hit as bad as any sector of the construction industry in this recession and that they too are trying to make a few extra quid by doing jobs on the side. The reason I posted was because the OP's extension sounded exactly like mine, a small extension to the rear of the house except mine is to the side.

sinnerboy

Did you apply for planning permission ?

Carlow52

BlackEdelweiss wrote: »

...are trying to make a few extra quid by doing jobs on the side.....

On side at 350 = no [PI/PL/paperwork ] I bet as well as john and june cash

paddy147

All my fees (architect,lots of A3 sized plotted/CAD plans,PP process and newpaper submissions,Commencement notice to Dublin City Council,structural engineer and project management) came to 3500 euro.I even had CAD 3D plans done up for my porch.This was in Dublin too (where prices are supposed to be more)

Structural engineeer comes into his own when it comes to substructure/foundations and steelwork and load bearing capacities.Im so glad I had the structrual engineer onboard.

The end result was brilliant.

Shop around and ask exactly what you are getting for your money before you agree on anything.Try to get it in writing too.

thats my advice.

Mellor

BlackEdelweiss wrote: »

He is an architect who works for another architect and he does a few jobs on the side to earn a few euros. I am an engineer and I know what drawings look like ...

BlackEdelweiss wrote: »

Not all engineers are civil engineers and I have minimal experience of working on a building site.

Did you apply for planning?
did you get a certificate of compliance with building regs and/or planning permission.

BlackEdelweiss

Carlow52 wrote: »

On side at 350 = no [PI/PL/paperwork ] I bet as well as john and june cash

???

Slig

I personally think that the biggest problem with architects fees is that they are often the first price that you get before you start the job and you may not be fully aware of how much a build actually costs. When building everything, every small detail, every small change will cost a couple of hundred or a couple of thousand euro.

While €1000 0r €2000 sounds alot when put into context it would be about 1% of the total cost of a new build house, half the price of tiling a kitchen or maybe 1 or 2 windows. Saying that however price and value are 2 completely different things. In the past I have done nixers for €500 euro but that didnt include the price of newspaper notices, planning fees, OS planning packs, surveys or ancillary services which could all easily add up to another €1000. Unfortunately there is actually more work involved for an Architect in designing an extension than a new house as the existing building and layout all has to be considered and surveyed so although the overall cost of the build will be less the architects fees may not reflect that.

€3500 sounds quite a lot to me but if it is a professional service it could be good value.

I often find that the same people that complain about architects fees of several thousand to ensure that their house is designed (not drawn) and that their build goes smoothly will have no qualms paying several times that much for a couch.

Carlow52

Slig wrote: »

I often find that the same people that complain about architects fees of several thousand to ensure that their house is designed (not drawn) and that their build goes smoothly will have no qualms paying several times that much for a couch.

Or even a golf club(s):D

rural_red

BlackEdelweiss wrote: »

He is an architect who works for another architect and he does a few jobs on the side to earn a few euros. I am an engineer and I know what drawings look like and I have given the drawings to several contractors and none of them have voiced any concerns about the quality of the drawings. If the same guy charged me €1000 none of you would have questioned them, just because something is cheap dosent mean it is crap. It is only a basic extension and we already had drawings of our existing house, €350 is a fair price for that type of work.

The key question here as BryanF asks is what are you getting for 350? I'd also ask whether you know how many hours went into this work and when its all done how much an hour the 350 guy is being paid. Do his hours take into account his professional indemnity; his travel costs having surveyed the house to make sure your existing drawings are accurate; his appraisal of the context of the extension; The time listening to you providing the brief; The time simply drafting the extension; The administration of the planning application (if any)...etc......? Your case is not the norm and distorts the discussion.

martinn123

In my limited experience of dealing with Architects is that in the current recession they are one of the '' chosen few'' who consider Fees should reflect more affluent times than the current actual economy.The OP asks what fees for an extention to the rear, where planning may not be required, OK he mentions knocking down a rear wall, so a Structural Engineer at least.While the 350 fee may be a bit low, as stated it was a nixer.Recently I was approached by a customer who had a set of plans for a single storey extention to rear, now the Architect had so far charged 2K for the plans, and wanted a % fee of the contract price, PLUS milage fees from Bray to Meath.The design was not what the client wanted, she hated the design, I sketched on some software a design she liked and priced the job.Planning was not an issue and no structural alterations to the original house.I got an Architect to do 3 inspections during the construction and supply a cert of compliance with Building Reg's and Planning for 750 + vatOK proper advice and a knowledge of Reg's, Planning etc is required for a large project, or a new build, and I won't knock fees in such a case, but guys realise we are in a recession, I have to reduce my prices, to get work, why should an Architect be immune from the recession, and still expect an exorbitant hourly rate, often for an extention.

Poor Uncle Tom

martinn123 wrote: »

In my limited experience of dealing with Architects is that in the current recession they are one of the '' chosen few'' who consider Fees should reflect more affluent times than the current actual economy.The OP asks what fees for an extention to the rear, where planning may not be required, OK he mentions knocking down a rear wall, so a Structural Engineer at least.While the 350 fee may be a bit low, as stated it was a nixer.Recently I was approached by a customer who had a set of plans for a single storey extention to rear, now the Architect had so far charged 2K for the plans, and wanted a % fee of the contract price, PLUS milage fees from Bray to Meath.The design was not what the client wanted, she hated the design, I sketched on some software a design she liked and priced the job.Planning was not an issue and no structural alterations to the original house.I got an Architect to do 3 inspections during the construction and supply a cert of compliance with Building Reg's and Planning for 750 + vatOK proper advice and a knowledge of Reg's, Planning etc is required for a large project, or a new build, and I won't knock fees in such a case, but guys realise we are in a recession, I have to reduce my prices, to get work, why should an Architect be immune from the recession, and still expect an exorbitant hourly rate, often for an extention.

I believe there are very few people in the industry who are still on the huge fees, and if they are they won't see out the recession.

The problem I have with your scenario is that, if you are the contractor, you shouldn't 'supply' the person certifying the works. It is a clear conflict of interest. However the fee you mention sounds ok to me, it's basic drafting, periodic observation and certification of 'seen' works.

martinn123

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

I believe there are very few people in the industry who are still on the huge fees, and if they are they won't see out the recession.

>

trixyben wrote: »

im not looking for the cheapest at this point just not lookingto be ripped off!! in fairness the one i got a quote from met me at site and some good ideas for the layout of the house was impressed with him to be honest...anyother wont visit the site until i give him the go ahead where he will charge 8% of the build and his ideas didnt really fit into want we told him we wanted

>

PBilly wrote: »

Jeepers, if I'm reading the above right, these quotes are for a new build, right? We're just looking for an attic conversion and renovation of a period house in great nick and the quotes received so far are in excess of €5k!!

>

elfi wrote: »

Hi all.

I have read a lot about architects fees for new builds on this site but not so much about fees for extensions. I recently paid an architect almost €4,000 plus vat, plus planning fee, plus ad for paper
This seems very high compared to plans for full houses - does it? i

Not sure I agree with you, regarding huge fees.......

POOR UNCLE TOM wrote:

The problem I have with your scenario is that, if you are the contractor, you shouldn't 'supply' the person certifying the works. It is a clear conflict of interest. However the fee you mention sounds ok to me, it's basic drafting, periodic observation and certification of 'seen' works.

Thanks for that info, welcome the clarification.

Carlow52

The guys who really need to get a grip on fees are the legal chaps and lassies.

I am dealing with 2 of the big 5 at the mo and the Senior associates in both are 475 plus VAT an hour. The basic trainee charge out rate is 170 plus VAT per hour

Just to pick up on the mods comment, on the other side there are 'clients' who expect us to work for next to nought because there is a recession!

martinn123

Carlow52 wrote: »

The guys who really need to get a grip on fees are the legal chaps and lassies.

I am dealing with 2 of the big 5 at the mo and the Senior associates in both are 475 plus VAT an hour. The basic trainee charge out rate is 170 plus VAT per hour.

<i>What rate do you expect as an Architect? Apologies if thats an unfair question but you are quoting fees for the other profession.

Just to pick up on the mods comment, on the other side there are 'clients' who expect us to work for next to nought because there is a recession!

Well as a Contractor that what I have to do......Thats the definition of a recession..

mossyhayes

Had an achitect design and draw up a full set of house plans last year for a house which we could not build due to mortgage refusals for building. He did the design consultation fre hand drew up a set of full plans and dealt with the council regarding the planning. All in at 1500 euro. I definitley go back to this guy as his designs and ideas are absolute quality. Best i've seen. And no i am in no way affiliated with the architect just a big fan of what he does.......just incase the mods are hovering!!! If anyone wants his firms contact details PM me.

rural_red

@ Mossy. Its clear you are not representing his interests if you are paying him only 1500 and you consider him quality!!

mossyhayes

rural_red wrote: »

@ Mossy. Its clear you are not representing his interests if you are paying him only 1500 and you consider him quality!!

The fees are set buy the architect not me and i have seen sketches, plans and actual houses designed by this guy.... really good work. Its comments and opinions like rural_red's above, are keeping this country from moving on in these recessionary times. LOW COST DOES NOT MEAN LOW QUALITY! Its all about providing a quality service at a competitive price.

muffler

rural_red wrote: »

@ Mossy. Its clear you are not representing his interests if you are paying him only 1500 and you consider him quality!!

Im a bit confused about this statement. Without you knowing any of the details are you suggesting that the architect undercharged?

harry21

OP...

If you are saying 'I want an extension but I have no idea what I want', then you probably do need an architect.

If you have an idea of your requirements etc... then you can always use an engineer. (Structural, Civil etc.)

The paper work alone costs at least €300-€400 on a small project like this, so I would be very cautious of jobs that are too cheap!!

That said I would never pay €3000 for it either. In my opinion a client should not have to pay a penny over €2000 for designing and planning all in. If someone is willing to do it as a foxer then you can get more competitive quotes.

The final 'if' is that if you want someone to oversee the work then this is going to cost you even more, depending on many variables, so a price can;t really be put on this without further information from you?

RKQ

mossyhayes wrote: »

LOW COST DOES NOT MEAN LOW QUALITY! Its all about providing a quality service at a competitive price.

Agree 100%.
Whether its an extension, new build or renovation, people should ring around for at least 3 written quotes. IMO each Arch Tech/ Architect / Engineer should meet the Client on site.

rural_red

muffler wrote: »

Im a bit confused about this statement. Without you knowing any of the details are you suggesting that the architect undercharged?

I am absolutely saying that and I am basing it on experience. Something other posters have very little of it seems.

My experience leads me to know that the completion of an appropriate singular design that meets the site, client, building regulations and planners requirements takes a minimum of 40 hours of design time. The administration would take 16 hours. Add to that meetings with planner or client, lets say 2 hours. Survey of a greenfield site and surrounding context and then drafting survey, lets say 6 hours. This is without allowing for hickups and assuming 3 drafts and changes at most, the total hours is 64 hours. So that seems like its a simple case of 1500 divided by 64 = €23 / hours. Well you then have to take out travel expenses, copying and printing costs, professional indemnity insurance, Professional Affiliation subscription, obligatory continued training costs, office overheads (which may be other persons wages) and you are looking more like a case of 8 / hour.

It is more likely that this fee of 1500 has incurred a loss. So if there is no loss, then something has been sacrificed; maybe quality?

This is in the context of a professional who has 7 years of training and then training of roughly 1 week unpaid on an annual basis on top of that.

I have ignored a preliminary DEAP calculation (which should be common practice by now) and the possibility that the site had to be tested for safe disposal of effluent. The possibility that the architect needed to refer to third party statutory bodies such as the ESB, DoEHLG, an Taisce, Waterways Ireland...etc.

Can anyone else back up their comments please?

Poor Uncle Tom

rural_red wrote: »

I am absolutely saying that and I am basing it on experience. Something other posters have very little of it seems.

There are some very experienced posters on here, so please lose the attitude.

rural_red wrote: »

My experience leads me to know that the completion of an appropriate singular design that meets the site, client, building regulations and planners requirements takes a minimum of 40 hours of design time.

I am aware of cases where this time is under 20 hours all in and depends very much on ones personal pace.

rural_red wrote: »

The administration would take 16 hours. Add to that meetings with planner or client, lets say 2 hours. Survey of a greenfield site and surrounding context and then drafting survey, lets say 6 hours. This is without allowing for hickups and assuming 3 drafts and changes at most, the total hours is 64 hours. So that seems like its a simple case of 1500 divided by 64 = €23 / hours. Well you then have to take out travel expenses, copying and printing costs, professional indemnity insurance, Professional Affiliation subscription, obligatory continued training costs, office overheads (which may be other persons wages) and you are looking more like a case of 8 / hour.

If an office dedicates itself to one specific job (this rarely ever happens) there is no reason why it couldn't be carried out in say 30 hours.

rural_red wrote: »

It is more likely that this fee of 1500 has incurred a loss. So if there is no loss, then something has been sacrificed; maybe quality?

Maybe the sacrifice is the persons time, which otherwise may be spent twiddeling thumbs.

rural_red wrote: »

This is in the context of a professional who has 7 years of training and then training of roughly 1 week unpaid on an annual basis on top of that.

I have ignored a preliminary DEAP calculation (which should be common practice by now) and the possibility that the site had to be tested for safe disposal of effluent. The possibility that the architect needed to refer to third party statutory bodies such as the ESB, DoEHLG, an Taisce, Waterways Ireland...etc.

If we are dealing with an office here all these works can be carried out simultaniously with the works mentioned above.

rural_red wrote: »

Can anyone else back up their comments please?

Your comments are personal to your experience, just as every other posters experience is, therefore their views are no less valid.

muffler

rural_red wrote: »

I am absolutely saying that and I am basing it on experience. Something other posters have very little of it seems.

As advised above just loose the attitude. Dont think for one minute that you are going to come to this forum and cast a slur on the qualifications of others.

rural_red wrote: »

It is more likely that this fee of 1500 has incurred a loss. So if there is no loss, then something has been sacrificed; maybe quality?

Maybe someone realised that we are all struggling and that we are now living in 2011 and not 2005

rural_red

I have to laugh that you'd take it as a slur that there is a gap is experience between contributers. This is a given. There IS a gap and always will be.

This experiential gap is perfectly illustrated by the following statement, 'If an office dedicates itself to one specific job (this rarely ever happens) there is no reason why it couldn't be carried out in say 30 hours.'

In terms of an office dedicating its time to a particular job, that seems to insinuate that where there is an 'office' there is more than one person. If we proceed on that basis, you are talking about a reduction in hours due to more than one person working on a job. This reduction is impossible since that second person also incurrs costs in man-hours. You would only be splitting the work between two presumably waged persons.

If people are taking offence to my spelling out the facts, I can only say that it seems to highlight the desire by some people to ignore the realities and casualties of this economy.

The cost of living has remained high as is seen with food and fuel costs, while the demand for discretionary services such as Architectural Design has reduced. Ergo, just because demand has reduced doesn't mean that there is any economic basis for a wholesale reduction in fees unless you truly believe that people do not deserve a living fair wage.

sydthebeat

64 hours for a singular domestic project to plaiing permission??????
one and a half working weeks dedicated to one project to get to a planning decision???

serious inefficiencies at play there. Whether its drafting time, design time or comprehension of design brief.....

rural_red

sydthebeat wrote: »

64 hours for a singular domestic project to plaiing permission??????
one and a half working weeks dedicated to one project to get to a planning decision???

serious inefficiencies at play there. Whether its drafting time, design time or comprehension of design brief.....

Where do you see inefficiencies? please give an breakdown or example, maybe I need to reappraise the design process...otherwise I happily stand over those hours.

That is the minimum timeframe for a high-quality design of a one-off house on a greenfield site. If you want a cookie-cutter, book of plans, bungalow blitz 'design' then you could talk about one third of that time since there is no design process.

If thats what you mean then please let us know otherwise comparisons are not like-for-like.

BryanF

http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://queerid.com/images/user_media/865a7649-81a0-453e-a470-9dd2e99fd186.jpg&imgrefurl=http://queerid.com/topic.aspx%3Ftopicid%3D11005&usg=__fjDLZ2vm18R_kHb8rg-jVaSroa8=&h=300&w=400&sz=18&hl=en&start=43&zoom=1&tbnid=lyVvULu8gu3AJM:&tbnh=138&tbnw=184&ei=yHTKTfLNKYawhQeC1umoAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3DRiai%2Barchitecture%2Bhouse%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26cr%3DcountryIE%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DNHT%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26biw%3D1091%26bih%3D816%26tbs%3Dctr:countryIE%26tbm%3Disch0%2C1710&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=476&page=3&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:16,s:43&tx=102&ty=79&biw=1091&bih=816

versus

http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.blueprinthomeplans.ie/img_library/products/standard/claddagh-t.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.blueprinthomeplans.ie/houseplans-sc.asp%3FsC_ID%3D112&usg=__9WcMf11wVera8RjSScdoNdUSNko=&h=124&w=280&sz=8&hl=en&start=20&zoom=1&tbnid=oxaTI9r_qPdDPM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=210&ei=U3XKTY7BAoaahQe02OioAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dbungalow%2Bhouse%2Bplans%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26cr%3DcountryIE%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26biw%3D1091%26bih%3D816%26tbs%3Dctr:countryIE%26tbm%3Disch0%2C684&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=349&page=2&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:16,s:20&tx=128&ty=53&biw=1091&bih=816

sydthebeat

rural_red wrote: »

Where do you see inefficiencies? please give an breakdown or example, maybe I need to reappraise the design process...otherwise I happily stand over those hours.

That is the minimum timeframe for a high-quality design of a one-off house on a greenfield site. If you want a cookie-cutter, book of plans, bungalow blitz 'design' then you could talk about one third of that time since there is no design process.

If thats what you mean then please let us know otherwise comparisons are not like-for-like.

if you are referring to designs like bryanf has linked to (first one as hes edited his post) then of course they incur maximum design time.

However, read the thread you are posting in... specifically read the post you responded to on which you were called upon. Dont go trying to change the goal posts at this stage... no one is talking about the mimetic house here.

The client was more than happy with the service he recieved. The Architect set the fee. Thats a happy symbotic professional relationship.

For you to turn around as say that the client wasnt "representing his interests" is a twisted view of how you see this relationship. The architech presented hand draw sketches and brought the project to a successful planning conclusion for a fee he/she was happy with. For you to twist this into your fee structure and come to a warped conclusion of €8 an hour is ridiculous. If you charge circa 5000 for planning designs and are still in a viable business in this harsh climate then good on you, but dont expect to try to purport that as normality or the industry standard.

muffler

rural_red wrote: »

it seems to highlight the desire by some people to ignore the realities and casualties of this economy.

It seems that you are one of only a few who have failed to recognise that we are living (and working) in recessionary times.

rural_red

I have just re-read the thread, I don't see a post from the architect in question, saying he was satisfied !?!

I certainly don't see any mention of a fee of 5000 euros from me !?!

I don't know how much the fee that was charged for Mimetic House, do you? maybe it was 1500 ??

I DO see you back-tracking.

sydthebeat

rural_red wrote: »

1. I have just re-read the thread, I don't see a post from the architect in question, saying he was satisfied !?!

2. I certainly don't see any mention of a fee of 5000 euros from me !?!

3. I don't know how much the fee that was charged for Mimetic House, do you? maybe it was 1500 ??

4. I DO see you back-tracking.

1. The architect set the fee, the client is satified. Is there something you dont understand here?

2. 64 hours by standard office fees equates to the region ive quoted... unless of course you charge in excess of this.

3. You dont know and i dont know.

4. As youve show how clear your perception is, ill take that as a compliment.

rural_red

There is a race-to-the-bottom going on in Architectural / Design Fees across Ireland. I believe that this is exemplified by the aforementioend 1500 fee.

This unsustainable reduction is down to the general customers awareness of the lack of demand for services, thereby applying downward pressure on fees. This is not helped by persons supplying a rudimentary 'design' service and competing at ridiculously low rates just to desperately win some fees at any cost.

If you are in the industry and are interested in the greater societal good, you would hope that there is a fair wage paid for a well trained professional. That same professional can then reciprocate and produce what they do best, a quality design that will add value to the clients everyday life and add value to the community at large.

I understand that this situation is not helped by the bitter experience of some who have indeed been overcharged by Architects during the boom.

In spite of this the question remaining then should be, do you value the service of an Architect? Which brings us back to my first post.

P.s. There is no such thing as the standard office rate. Any hourly rate depends on the overheads etc. as is the case for any sustainable business.

sydthebeat

rural, the funny thing is i agree completely with what you are saying.. .its just the manner in which you are saying it leaves a lot to be desired.

you are obviously making this point on the back of the recent AAI letter to the RIAI.
While this letter is well meaning, it simply does not reflect the environment we are all working in at the moment.
Like any supply and demand trend, there is currently an over supply of building design professionals and thus price being a function of supply and demand, price drops to meet supply. This will continue until the market finds its medium. We are all trying to make ends meet and to be honest, i am satisfied if i can get paid on a job, any job. In our office we charge what we consider is fair, we dont work for a loss because thats simply stupid. Yet we understand that if we charge too much we will loose the commission. The purchaser has the power and theres damn all the AAI or RIAI can do about that without trying to impose market restrictions (which i expect them to attempt anyway).
Its about survival of the fittest right now.

sydthebeat

to assume quality end product cannot be supplied in these market conditions is simply incorrect...

however, the quality control of the end product (ie local authorities) most certainly leaves a lot to be desired.

Q. Whens the last time anyone of us has seen a bungalow blitz type plan refused for lack of proper cognisance of design
A. never!!!

rural_red

Syd,
I wasn't aware of that AAI letter, its quite good. From reading it, it seems to be more about unpaid internships and exploitation of undergarduates, but the point is offered in the context of rapidly descending fees.

If the Local Authority did in fact provide quality control which you rightly have said they don't, then a prospective client would feel obliged to pay you for a correct and complete design. Quality control would exclude poor designers and mean that good architecture would not be sacrificed on the altar of bad economics.

The AAI or RIAI shouldn't be allowed to and shouldn't have to impose restrictions, the Local Authority Planning Department already (supposedly) has an obligation to do this.

Like yourself, I'll charge to cover my costs which is dictated also by what the market can bear. Ultimately I try and win the fees that allow me to provide for my family. I don't agree with a situation where a unscrupulous client pays below cost fees to my detriment and neither should anyone else. I turn away these people even if it leaves me tight for money in the short-term because in the long run I, if I accepted below cost fees I am letting people take bread from my childs mouth.

Poor Uncle Tom

You seem to be missing my point completely, so I will keep it concise.

rural_red wrote: »

My experience leads me to know that the completion of an appropriate singular design that meets the site, client, building regulations and planners requirements takes a minimum of 40 hours of design time.

rural_red wrote: »

That is the minimum timeframe for a high-quality design of a one-off house on a greenfield site. If you want a cookie-cutter, book of plans, bungalow blitz 'design' then you could talk about one third of that time since there is no design process.

I believe this is the case for YOU, it certainly is not the case for everyone. I believe the example you have given as paraphrased above is very much the exception, not the norm. A high quality design of a one-off house on a greenfield or brownfield site can be achieved in a lot less than 40 hours, imo. You may not be able to do it but it is achieveable.

rural_red wrote: »

If the Local Authority did in fact provide quality control which you rightly have said they don't, then a prospective client would feel obliged to pay you for a correct and complete design. Quality control would exclude poor designers and mean that good architecture would not be sacrificed on the altar of bad economics.

The AAI or RIAI shouldn't be allowed to and shouldn't have to impose restrictions, the Local Authority Planning Department already (supposedly) has an obligation to do this.

I think we are all aware of the LA's failings in this regard.

rural_red wrote: »

Like yourself, I'll charge to cover my costs which is dictated also by what the market can bear.

I submit that others may be able to do a similar job in less time and therefore incur less costs and therefore charge less.

rural_red wrote: »

...if I accepted below cost fees I am letting people take bread from my childs mouth.

Noble sentiment.....how long would you be willing to let your family go unprovided for before you would climb down from that principal?

Slig

I love these threads:D.

As far as supply and demand goes, the system doesnt seem to be balancing itself out even with offices closing all over the country.
I charge fairly moderate fees because my overheads are low and I have a supplimentary income however I always come up against competition from people doing nixers. everybody seems to know someone that can put together a planning application thats willing to do so on the side for a couple of hundred euro.
These are usually cash jobs done by engineers/architects that are unemployed or working in different industries or from engineers/architects still in full/part time employment that find they have more time on their hands and less demand for the printer. Either way its a bonus payment for them.

Unfortunately, it is ultimately the client (and environment) that will suffer but until there is some official regulation put in place and enforced things will not change. Even though the planners and enforcement officers have so much more time on their hands they dont seem to be capable of doing their jobs any better.

muffler

rural_red wrote: »

if I accepted below cost fees I am letting people take bread from my childs mouth.

You know the old saying.....half a loaf is better than no bread.

Unlike the rest of us I sincerely hope that you can continue to find clients who are willing to pay 2005 rates so as to keep you (and your fees) in the same living standards you have obviously become accustomed to.

It's no wonder the country is bollixed!

rural_red

Hi Uncle Tom,
I am extremely quick when it comes to drafting on CAD. 4 elevations, section and plans would be done for a house in 4 hours.

The real time is spent on design / redesign, alterations to suit clients requirements, presentation to high quality. I allow for up to 3 drafts but clients / planners tend to be happy after one with slight changes. This is because I design the house and site layout correctly at the outset.

As I say, if its down to CAD speed alone, I'm not found wanting. But until the standard is defined by speed / quantity and not quality (at least in my eyes) then I will stand by the hours I presented.

I generally get paid 3000 euros plus expenses for a one-off rural house. I live in a modest 2 bedroom bungalow, in negative equity, don't eat out, travel a little. Its because I have standards (and talent?) that people keep coming back.

If you sincerely feel that 1500 is enough for a quality design, please provide a breakdown as to what you think that Architect was paid per hour (roughly of course).

rural_red

Lads,
If we as Architects / Architectural Technologist are prepared to rush out drawings at low cost then something has to suffer. It will suit certain quarters to consider our service only 'a set of plans', that can be generated at the push of a button and rushing drawings off the drawing board will perpetuate that myth.

If that sits well with you then fine, you are simply churning out sausage. You should admit that. If you want better for your own self esteem, the client or indeed society at large (the mark of profession) then you should be resisting the race to the bottom in fees.

There is always someone cheaper.