The WWE can never win with John Cena. Face or Heel.

D.Q

I've been thinking alot about it. The will he / wont he turn debate seems to be gathering momentum again. But the situation is this.

John Cena is being booed heavily as the main face of the company. But the only reason he is being booed is because of the type of face he is portraying.

I'm convinced if he was to turn heel, that the boos would largely stop. I mean the kids wont boo. The kids don't boo heels now. And the 18-30 year olds probably wouldnt boo Cena as a heel, because the phony super face has gone.

so I've been thinking, how can they get Cena over as a face or as a heel? They seem to have booked him into a corner here.

As a face, he is being booed by a large part of the audience. Resented by many old wrestling fans. Admittedly, the kids still love him, but there is only so much derision from older fans in school etc that that devotion can withstand. Eventually, someone will clue them in on the fact that Santa isn't real and John Cena is a mong. When that happens, as those kids grow up, the company is left with their top man being booed, and resented because his character is so stale.

I dont he can get over as a heel. His character has been so deeply ingrained, any sort of change will not be believable. And since his character will finally be freshened up, the boos, i imagine will stop for the most part.

So the way I see it is, Cena is stuck in this weird middle ground... a face that cant get cheers and a heel that cant get boos.

discuss...

MitchKoobski

Catch 22.

If Cena turns heel, they give the ever so slightly majority fanbase what they want. They won't boo his super face qualities anymore. However, they will instead cheer him everytime he does something heelish, thus ruining the point of a heel.

If Cena stays face, he will continue to be unmercifully booed by anyone over 15 or 16 but they will continue to make millions on his merchandise for kids.

jaykhunter

Nah he just needs to take cues from HBK. he just needs to be a more convincing face. Stop being such a nice guy all the time. He needs to be vunerable, and to take things with proper gravity. His superman comebacks are horrific - he needs to win but in proper fashion, not superhuman style. Nobody believes he's gonna lose because he's been booked on a different planet, like HHH is the mid 2000s. He also needs much better material - this gerwitz sh!t really, really turns the hardcore fan right off. His offense needs to get more snug. Less "born-again christian" sermons...


Actually this is probably far too much for Cena. point conceded.

GTR63

Is a lot of the boos Cena gets is cause of how bad of a wrestler he is.His superman comebacks,windmill punches,clumsy suplexes and throws & general failure to improve and get the logic of the way matches develop.

Ridley

Well I'd say at this point he's never going to win with the internet at large either way...

It's not like he was always booed at the top. And his MSG cheers for his RR return before the crowd remembered they hated him were mentioned here a little while ago. It's not all him.

Personally, the only time Cena got stale for me was during that period where the likes of Lashley and Khali were thrown at him every month but it's instances like his not going away when he was 'fired' that are a problem.

This actually sums up people's frustrations quite well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84gbZmpJV9M

Said it before here (I think) but if/when Cena goes heel he should be:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9nOD1h0m8Q

Language warning for those who care about that sort of thing. It's techincally censored but like Raw's censoring, you still hear the important syllables.

CMpunked

MitchKoobski wrote: »

If Cena turns heel, they give the ever so slightly majority fanbase what they want. They won't boo his super face qualities anymore. However, they will instead cheer him everytime he does something heelish, thus ruining the point of a heel.

Like Stone Cold, The Rock or even more recently, Randy Orton.



IMO they should turn him heel and have him all out heel. Hating everything, giving out, being a pain in the ass. Some face threatens him and he takes the match (maybe Rock.)
He loses clean, but at the end of the match returns to face. Alá Hulk Hogan when he came back as part of the NWO.
That way when he turns back full face everybody(older fans and kids) should love him, but he should still have the tendencies that Jay expressed already.

Penn

The trouble isn't the fact that people don't like him because he's a face, it's because he's too much of a face. His character is just such a goody-two-shoes, who loves everything, respects everyone, never gives up telling us that he never gives up, and never even really seems to get angry. He'll look intense and raise his voice, but he never steps it up or brings it to the next level.

Faces are cheered because you want them to win. But nobody wants Cena to win because he wins far too much. Survivor Series 2008, he won the title. It was his first match back after a few months off injured. Didn't even appear before Survivor Series, just given the title shot and won it straight away. Ridiculous.

It's not all Cena's fault obviously. But with every great face came a dark side to them. They'd be so beaten down regularly by the heel that they'd be able to explode and go superhuman to get retribution. Cena is superhuman all the time. Even when the odds are stacked against him so much, he still just wins the match.

The other problem is the fact that older fans know how good he could be if he was given more leeway. His raps against the Rock are proof. That character doesn't even need to be a heel. He just needs to be funny. All the baloney fudging mustard in the world won't get people believing that you're actually angry about something. And wrestlers are meant to be angry. That's why you fight.

parker kent

The Rock was in a similar position when he was Rocky Maivia. Turning heel saved his career and led to his future successful run as a face. The goody two shoes, doesn't really care about being shafted in a Mania main event Cena is just too much to take.

Then there are more serious issues with his in-ring work, facial expression and verbal delivery which would need to worked on.

gimmick

Is Cena not the perfect "Tweener" (man I hate that term)?

He is both a face and a heel at the same time. As has been mentioned, if Cena would "turn heel", those that are booing him now, who are far more vocal than those cheering, would probably turn to cheering him. .

So, why change it? He is doing the job of the lovable face, and the hated heel all at the same time. Much like Bret did during his latter days in WWF.

Rjd2

Kids love him, smarks hate him, turns heel it would be the other way around, Vince knows which is the most profitable.

Penn

gimmick wrote: »

Is Cena not the perfect "Tweener" (man I hate that term)?

He is both a face and a heel at the same time. As has been mentioned, if Cena would "turn heel", those that are booing him now, who are far more vocal than those cheering, would probably turn to cheering him. .

So, why change it? He is doing the job of the lovable face, and the hated heel all at the same time. Much like Bret did during his latter days in WWF.

Difference is, he's not trying to be a heel. Heels try to get booed. Cena doesn't. He just gets booed because he's a stale, boring uber-face who only tries appealing to the kids. Jericho as a heel was a tweener because even though he was a heel, he was so damn good at it. Cena is a good face for the kids. But a bad face for nearly everyone else.

John Cena is a Heel and a Face .

He is a face to kids and girls and a heel to everybody else .

Bounty Hunter

Deleted User wrote: »

John Cena is a Heel and a Face .

He is a face to kids and girls and a heel to everybody else .

The WWE know that though having allowed Cena to address this on numerous occasions during promos but they need to change his booking quick imo and im not just talking about turning him heel. A traditional Heel vs Face match may not work too well for him going forward unless you have a majority young audience and thats not always the case at PPVs. One of the big problems with Cena/Miz was that apart from the Rock (who wasnt officially part of the match) the majority of the mania crowd had nobody to cheer for, there was so much more heel heat than there was cheering when a heel took a beating for instance.

MitchKoobski

Fair point raised in above posts. He needs a dark side. The closest thing we've seen to that recently is when he goes mental and won't release a hold.
His match against Edge where he lost it and just destroyed him was great. HBK is a good comparison. I'd even compare it to HHH for what he needs. Everyone will cheer HHH even he comes close to superhuman sometimes. But they show he can go a bit crazy when he takes out the sledgehammer.

drayme

All the problems with his smarmy character aside I think WWE waited too long for a heel turn to be effective

GTR63

aRjd2 wrote: »

Kids love him, smarks hate him.

Parents & Kids love him but surely not every fan that boo's Cena isn't a smark.He gets booed every week by thousands the fact wwe travels all over America & the World must mean there are millions of Marks all over the World & I don't think there is that many.If there was WWE would be pushing the likes of Zack Ryder.

parker kent

I think it's a cop out to say smarks hate him. By their nature, smarks are relatively few in numbers. The booing of Cena is by a lot more than that.

I stand by my comparison with The Rock earlier. He needs a heel turn the same way The Rock did when he was Rocky Maivia. He was getting Rocky Sucks chants despite being rammed down fans throats as a face. It took a heel turn for him to build as a character and performer.

Rjd2

GTR63 wrote: »

Parents & Kids love him but surely not every fan that boo's Cena isn't a smark.He gets booed every week by thousands the fact wwe travels all over America & the World must mean there are millions of Marks all over the World & I don't think there is that many.If there was WWE would be pushing the likes of Zack Ryder.

Not everyone boo's him, and adults do like him, the majority still cheer him and he always is very over on house shows.
People get twisted when it comes to debating Cena and make up stories as the Alex Reilly debacle proved.

Oh and parents and kids are just as important as adults when it comes to Vince, and their opinion holds the same weight as anyone else so nothing wrong with Cena been aimed at them so much.

gimmick

parker kent wrote: »

I think it's a cop out to say smarks hate him. By their nature, smarks are relatively few in numbers. The booing of Cena is by a lot more than that.

Its funny, because for a period on this board, Cena was the smark favourite. Apparently he was putting on great matches and if you could not see that, you were a smark! Yes, I know what I just typed.

Barrington wrote:

Difference is, he's not trying to be a heel. Heels try to get booed. Cena doesn't. He just gets booed because he's a stale, boring uber-face who only tries appealing to the kids.

I kind of disagree. I think he told to slush it up to get the older fanbase boo's tbh. WWE creative gave up long ago trying to changes peoples minds. Last time they really gave it a go was in his feud with Angle where Angle dissed the troops. When that didnt work, I think they decided screw it, he is what he is. At least he is getting a good loud reaction every time he steps out.

GTR63

Rjd2 wrote: »

Not everyone boo's him, and adults do like him, the majority still cheer him and he always is very over on house shows.
People get twisted when it comes to debating Cena and make up stories as the Alex Reilly debacle proved.

Nope the majority boo him & what is this made up story about Riley if its When Cena threw him out of the Rumble early it clearly wasn't made up the commentators were wondering where Riley was & Riley had to come back out to do the originally planned spot.

parker kent

Rjd2 wrote: »

Not everyone boo's him, and adults do like him, the majority still cheer him and he always is very over on house shows.
People get twisted when it comes to debating Cena and make up stories as the Alex Reilly debacle proved.

It is not twisted or making things up to comment on something that happened live on PPV. He has had 2 big screw ups in Royal Rumble history.

Rjd2

parker kent wrote: »

It is not twisted or making things up to comment on something that happened live on PPV. He has had 2 big screw ups in Royal Rumble history.

Of course it wasn't Riley an inexperienced mediocre rookie who has a history of dreadful botches fault, God forbid an opportunity to bash Cena could pass.

Diabhal Beag

I don't hate him but he isn't funny. Needs to stop making the awful 99.99% of missing jokes.

Miz is now the perfect tweener IMO. Has huge potential as a face while also not sucking ass as a heel.

partyndbs

cena is funny i think so anyway

Big Daddy Cool

Rjd2 wrote: »

Of course it wasn't Riley an inexperienced mediocre rookie who has a history of dreadful botches fault, God forbid an opportunity to bash Cena could pass.

this is my last point on john cena cos its pointless now, but according to your above post, you'd blame riley an inexperienced mediocre rookie, instead of a near 10 year veteran, numerous times champion, who probably should've seen that riley had'nt got his arm around the top rope before dumping him out, i suppose to you blame miz on sunday night for cena falling over him in the middle of the ring instead of jumping over him, and i wont even comment on his version of the stf :eek:.

I'm not not bashing him for the point of just bashing him, i'm just pointing out his faults that can be seen every week on tv, faults that if rectified could turn the tide of boos, he can still be the kiddies favourite, but they dont care about his ring work, they just want to see him winning, its the adults who watch him and boo him because of his superhuman comebacks, they boo him because his ring work looks bad, they boo him cos of his promos and his delivery of them at times is terrible, the booking team cant be blamed for that, they dont book him to go out and look like a clown, i dont believe they book him to jump up seconds after a beatdown and clean house looking like a human windmill, i also dont believe a heel turn will solve his problems, in my opinion if he himself delivered more realistic promo's, more realistic punches and kicks and just became more credible i suppose, i believe the boos would stop.

parker kent

Rjd2 wrote: »

Of course it wasn't Riley an inexperienced mediocre rookie who has a history of dreadful botches fault, God forbid an opportunity to bash Cena could pass.

There's no need to get your knickers in a twist, he is commonly referred to as being at fault for that incident. Both Riley and Cena have a series of botches with each other, you can't blame one more than the other. Both were at fault, both should be blamed. Since this is a thread about Cena, I referred to Cena. I also mentioned the botch with Batista at the Rumble.

Rjd2

parker kent wrote: »

There's no need to get your knickers in a twist, he is commonly referred to as being at fault for that incident. Both Riley and Cena have a series of botches with each other, you can't blame one more than the other. Both were at fault, both should be blamed. Since this is a thread about Cena, I referred to Cena. I also mentioned the botch with Batista at the Rumble.

Riley should have been able to hang on, it was a basic spot, and he botched it, not Cena's fault or Kofi who was beside Riley either, who unsurprisingly got no blame either. :pac:

Cena has no history of been responsible for botches with Riley who is a disasterpiece of a wrestler.


Cena has botched over the years, heck everyone has but he done nothing wrong with Riley a guy who has a history of botches even when Cena is not about.

barura

I think that Cena is doing a grand job. His promos and matches are quite good. Remember the dropkick?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtFVN4HWzE4

Pity they won't him simmer down and then build up. Been playing Smackdown!2 for the playstation (on my psp :P) and the build ups are brilliant. You start low and work your way up. But the top of the roster is full, so it like rotates between there and the mid and mid/high card. Sorta like what they've done with Sheamus, as he's now on the USA belt. If Cena went off and decided to do something different like the IC/USA belt or even a Tag Team helping to build newer stars, that'd be sweet.

parker kent

Rjd2 wrote: »

Riley should have been able to hang on, it was a basic spot, and he botched it, not Cena's fault or Kofi who was beside Riley either, who unsurprisingly got no blame either. :pac:

Cena has no history of been responsible for botches with Riley who is a disasterpiece of a wrestler.

Cena has botched over the years, heck everyone has but he done nothing wrong with Riley a guy who has a history of botches even when Cena is not about.

Reports suggest Cena eliminated Riley without giving him the chance to hook his arm around the rope. He has been blamed in numerous accounts I have read of the incident. Kofi standing nearby does not matter. Cena was the lifter.

As for Riley/Cena botches, Cena also left Riley dangling on top of the steel cage like a tool during their Raw cage match. Riley had to wait ages for Cena to get in place.

Whether you like or dislike somebody, it should be possible to actually talk about what has happened.

paddyismaddy

i dont think he is bad in ring he has had some pretty decent feuds and matches

cena's lame promos ruin him for me if he was let work away on his own might be way better

Mr.Nice Guy

The people who hate him passionately will be fawning all over him when he does turn heel.

I don't see why they need to change him now though. Some said he is stale. He's not to the young kids and mothers who are buying his merchandise and paying to see him. Hogan in the mid-nineties was stale because his character had worn itself out. Cena is still the most marketable character, as far as I know, so it would be silly to destroy their most popular attraction if there is no one there that can fill the void.

I think they are even more wary because they did the heel turn with Austin in '01 and I believe it killed huge business for them, so they won't turn Cena unless someone else steps up and becomes the top guy which will prompt a heel turn.

parker kent

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The people who hate him passionately will be fawning all over him when he does turn heel.

You can't say that. It smacks of saying people are blindly saying things. There are valid reasons to criticise him. Some some people may behave like that, but it is just plain wrong to say that outright.

That type of line is one of the most annoying aspects of Cena arguments.

Mr.Nice Guy

parker kent wrote: »

You can't say that. It smacks of saying people are blindly saying things. There are valid reasons to criticise him. Some some people may behave like that, but it is just plain wrong to say that outright.

That type of line is one of the most annoying aspects of Cena arguments.

I can say it simply because it's the nature of the business. Hogan, Michaels, Rock, Batista, Bret, all top babyfaces who reached a point of saturation for a certain demographic of the fanbase and as soon as the turn was made, these people began to cheer them. It was perceived as the cool thing to do.

The biggest babyface of the recent decade turning heel will lead to the former critics popping for him when he starts cutting promos knocking the younger fans who used to idolise him. You can't honestly think otherwise?

parker kent

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I can say it simply because it's the nature of the business. Hogan, Michaels, Rock, Batista, Bret, all top babyfaces who reached a point of saturation for a certain demographic of the fanbase and as soon as the turn was made, these people began to cheer them. It was perceived as the cool thing to do.

The biggest babyface of the recent decade turning heel will lead to the former critics popping for him when he starts cutting promos knocking the younger fans who used to idolise him. You can't honestly think otherwise?

Of course I can think otherwise. It is just plain wrong to make bold generalisations about what people may or may not think. When some people turn heel, what you say happens. But not with every single person who turns. Also, some fans may think like that, but you cannot just say that people who dislike him now will suddenly love him as a heel.

If he turned heel and still had inane promos and pathetic offence, I would still dislike him. So would many others I imagine. Hogan did not win over all his detractors when he turned heel, so if he couldn't Cena should not be expected to do otherwise. The criticisms I and others make about Cena are going beyond mere annoyance at a stale character.

I find the "You'll all love him when he's a heel" argument to be very close to an attempt to discredit very real criticisms. Maybe I'm too schooled in correct debating principles, but I just don't think arguments presupposing what people will think are not the way to go.

Mr.Nice Guy

parker kent wrote: »

Of course I can think otherwise. It is just plain wrong to make bold generalisations about what people may or may not think. When some people turn heel, what you say happens. But not with every single person who turns. Also, some fans may think like that, but you cannot just say that people who dislike him now will suddenly love him as a heel.

If he turned heel and still had inane promos and pathetic offence, I would still dislike him. So would many others I imagine. Hogan did not win over all his detractors when he turned heel, so if he couldn't Cena should not be expected to do otherwise. The criticisms I and others make about Cena are going beyond mere annoyance at a stale character.

I find the "You'll all love him when he's a heel" argument to be very close to an attempt to discredit very real criticisms. Maybe I'm too schooled in correct debating principles, but I just don't think arguments presupposing what people will think are not the way to go.

First of all you're being very sensitive to an opinion expressed on an opinion forum. If you think the people who hate on him will not fall over themselves to praise him then you're entitled to your view, but it goes against the very pattern of the business. Yes indeed what I described does not happen with every single person who turns - but we are not talking about just anybody here. We're talking about one of, if not the, biggest star of the modern era who has had to weather an enormous amount of heat as he has remained the top babyface. If you don't think the situation is set up for a massive shift when his own character shifts then I think you are seriously naive and short-sighted. This has been the most talked about turn for years and when it happens it will cause major headlines that will dwarf the stuff seen with Hardy's TNA turn.

You may still dislike him if he turns but you will be the minority based on my view of the fanbase. Most fans who hate on him were previously supportive of him when he played the heel rapper in '03 and when he got over hugely with their demographic. They perceive him as stale now. If you look at comments that were made after his rap promo on Rock weeks ago there were people writing 'Why can't we see this Cena more often?' 'I miss this Cena' etc.

As for Hogan, he became the hottest heel in the business and took WCW to new heights, making being a heel cool so it's a bad example for you to make if you're trying to make out that a Cena turn won't win over fans who previously hated him. It happened with Hogan and it will happen with Cena.

parker kent

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

First of all you're being very sensitive to an opinion expressed on an opinion forum. If you think the people who hate on him will not fall over themselves to praise him then you're entitled to your view, but it goes against the very pattern of the business. Yes indeed what I described does not happen with every single person who turns - but we are not talking about just anybody here. We're talking about one of, if not the, biggest star of the modern era who has had to weather an enormous amount of heat as he has remained the top babyface. If you don't think the situation is set up for a massive shift when his own character shifts then I think you are seriously naive and short-sighted. This has been the most talked about turn for years and when it happens it will cause major headlines that will dwarf the stuff seen with Hardy's TNA turn.

You may still dislike him if he turns but you will be the minority based on my view of the fanbase. Most fans who hate on him were previously supportive of him when he played the heel rapper in '03 and when he got over hugely with their demographic. They perceive him as stale now. If you look at comments that were made after his rap promo on Rock weeks ago there were people writing 'Why can't we see this Cena more often?' 'I miss this Cena' etc.

As for Hogan, he became the hottest heel in the business and took WCW to new heights, making being a heel cool so it's a bad example for you to make if you're trying to make out that a Cena turn won't win over fans who previously hated him. It happened with Hogan and it will happen with Cena.

I'm not being overly sensitive, I just disagree that you can know what other people will think. Your earlier points were not saying "Some fans will be won over". It was "The people who hate him passionately will be fawning all over him when he does turn heel." You simply can't say that. If you said some fans would be won over, fair enough. But your post was just a dogmatic view of what will happen.

I'm arguing against the prevailing idea amongst the pro-Cena camp on here that he will be instantly loved when he turns heel. Steve Austin was a much, much bigger star than Cena and his heel turn was not successful. I am merely saying that it is simplistic to say "Cena as a heel=Everybody who hates him suddenly loves him". If it is well executed, Cena improves his character, mic work and in-ring skills, perhaps it will be successful. There is just as big a chance that it would be a disaster and they turn him face again. Not all of the comments were as you suggest. There are plenty of people who complain about other aspects of his work, aspects that some heel raps won't change.

As for Hogan, I've said on here it was the greatest angle in the history of wrestling. My point was that not even the greatest heel turn of all time won over every detractor. Which was close to what you suggested earlier. You have since changed that a little (although you still say it WILL happen, which you can't possibly know). John Cena is no Hulk Hogan, so any turn is not likely to out-do that event. Hogan's heel turn was unexpected. Cena's is seen a must-do. They are different. However, I merely used it as a counter-argument.

the groutch

Cena would work well as a heel, but to do it effectively they'd need to wait til at least Survivor Series or even Royal Rumble before starting the turn, and then have him face taker at WM28, where taker would put him over as a heel big time

Mr.Nice Guy

parker kent wrote: »

I'm not being overly sensitive, I just disagree that you can know what other people will think. Your earlier points were not saying "Some fans will be won over". It was "The people who hate him passionately will be fawning all over him when he does turn heel." You simply can't say that. If you said some fans would be won over, fair enough. But your post was just a dogmatic view of what will happen.

In fairness it was no more dogmatic than if I was to suggest a few months back that people would despise Michael Cole if he were to turn heel. The fact that 1% of the audience might like to cheer for him and regard themselves as Cole Miners would hardly make the statement inaccurate unless someone was seeking to be extremely pedantic. If you want me to be that specific though, fine - 99% of those who hate him passionately will be fawning all over him when he does turn heel.

parker kent wrote:

I'm arguing against the prevailing idea amongst the pro-Cena camp on here that he will be instantly loved when he turns heel. Steve Austin was a much, much bigger star than Cena and his heel turn was not successful.

He was hardly a 'much, much bigger star' but this example is deeply flawed since Austin was turned when he was already popular and when fans didn't want to boo him. The Hogan comparison, or Rock in 2002, is a better one.

parker kent wrote:

I am merely saying that it is simplistic to say "Cena as a heel=Everybody who hates him suddenly loves him". If it is well executed, Cena improves his character, mic work and in-ring skills, perhaps it will be successful. There is just as big a chance that it would be a disaster and they turn him face again. Not all of the comments were as you suggest. There are plenty of people who complain about other aspects of his work, aspects that some heel raps won't change.

It is that simple though. Cena is a mega star and when he turns heel it will be a monumental moment. It could well prove to be a bad move long-term but all I'm saying is that when it happens the haters will soon be flocking to hail him as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

parker kent wrote:

As for Hogan, I've said on here it was the greatest angle in the history of wrestling. My point was that not even the greatest heel turn of all time won over every detractor. Which was close to what you suggested earlier. You have since changed that a little (although you still say it WILL happen, which you can't possibly know). John Cena is no Hulk Hogan, so any turn is not likely to out-do that event. Hogan's heel turn was unexpected. Cena's is seen a must-do. They are different. However, I merely used it as a counter-argument.

And this is the pedantry I was talking about. They don't care about the extreme minority with a chip on their shoulder that won't be won over. If it's a heel, it's not an issue since it's extra heat. They might care about the people who regard him as stale which I am arguing represents 99% of the critics. Cena's turn isn't seen as a must-do though as the guy is the biggest draw in wrestling out of the active circuit.

parker kent

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

In fairness it was no more dogmatic than if I was to suggest a few months back that people would despise Michael Cole if he were to turn heel. The fact that 1% of the audience might like to cheer for him and regard themselves as Cole Miners would hardly make the statement inaccurate unless someone was seeking to be extremely pedantic. If you want me to be that specific though, fine - 99% of those who hate him passionately will be fawning all over him when he does turn heel.

He was hardly a 'much, much bigger star' but this example is deeply flawed since Austin was turned when he was already popular and when fans didn't want to boo him. The Hogan comparison, or Rock in 2002, is a better one.

It is that simple though. Cena is a mega star and when he turns heel it will be a monumental moment. It could well prove to be a bad move long-term but all I'm saying is that when it happens the haters will soon be flocking to hail him as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

And this is the pedantry I was talking about. They don't care about the extreme minority with a chip on their shoulder that won't be won over. If it's a heel, it's not an issue since it's extra heat. They might care about the people who regard him as stale which I am arguing represents 99% of the critics. Cena's turn isn't seen as a must-do though as the guy is the biggest draw in wrestling out of the active circuit.

A few things here...

You seem to confuse what dogmatic actually means. It means you cannot say 100% that something unknown is true or will be true. You simply don't know what will happen if Cena turned heel. I have been making that point consistently. You are saying "99% of those who hate him passionately will be fawning all over him when he does turn heel". Which it is not possible to know and it extremely dismissive of the very real criticisms people have of Cena now. It is effectively saying that 99% of the people criticising Cena are effectively fanboys who can be won over with promos/different booking and that they always back the "cool" heels. Which is not true. The criticisms go beyond issues with whether he is a face or a heel. I am saying "He may or may not be successful depending on a variety of issues".

It is not even up for debate that Steve Austin was a bigger star then than Cena is now. It is genuinely laughable to suggest otherwise. Your criticism of my suggestion of the Austin heel turn actually matches my argument. It is not as simple as "heel turn=awesome". That is my point. You cannot dogmatically say one way or the other. There are a plethora of other issues to consider. Austin's heel turn was not managed properly. Cena's may not either (if indeed it ever happens).

Your last point features more dismissive language about people with chips on their shoulder. Hogan is an extreme example, but even the greatest turn of all time did not win over everybody. That was my point....you cannot say as you said earlier that a heel turn will win over everybody. Nor should you dismiss very real criticisms fans have. Hogan's matches were dreadful in 1996 and 1997, hence the criticisms fans had of him. There were other valid issues too, but this is not a debate on Hogan. It was merely an example of how even the best heel turns do not win everybody over.

You seem to be missing the basis of my argument. You cannot make outright, dogmatic predictions when you don't actually know what will happen.

bradlente

meh,I pretty much agree with Barrington and Parker Kent on this one.

The Rock is a better worker than Cena but he wasn't and isn't the greatest worker in the world.When he turned heel with the nation he was allowed to make promos that were far more broad than Cena's,of course that was the Attitude era.

Some of Cenas old promos are great and he has been over as both a face and a heel in the past,so I'd consider this a non-issue.

Booking and WWE's pg rating are the factors in how hes received now,Nothing to do with Cena imo.

Mr.Nice Guy

parker kent wrote: »

A few things here...

You seem to confuse what dogmatic actually means. It means you cannot say 100% that something unknown is true or will be true. You simply don't know what will happen if Cena turned heel. I have been making that point consistently. You are saying "99% of those who hate him passionately will be fawning all over him when he does turn heel". Which it is not possible to know and it extremely dismissive of the very real criticisms people have of Cena now. It is effectively saying that 99% of the people criticising Cena are effectively fanboys who can be won over with promos/different booking and that they always back the "cool" heels. Which is not true. The criticisms go beyond issues with whether he is a face or a heel. I am saying "He may or may not be successful depending on a variety of issues".

It is not even up for debate that Steve Austin was a bigger star then than Cena is now. It is genuinely laughable to suggest otherwise. Your criticism of my suggestion of the Austin heel turn actually matches my argument. It is not as simple as "heel turn=awesome". That is my point. You cannot dogmatically say one way or the other. There are a plethora of other issues to consider. Austin's heel turn was not managed properly. Cena's may not either (if indeed it ever happens).

Your last point features more dismissive language about people with chips on their shoulder. Hogan is an extreme example, but even the greatest turn of all time did not win over everybody. That was my point....you cannot say as you said earlier that a heel turn will win over everybody. Nor should you dismiss very real criticisms fans have. Hogan's matches were dreadful in 1996 and 1997, hence the criticisms fans had of him. There were other valid issues too, but this is not a debate on Hogan. It was merely an example of how even the best heel turns do not win everybody over.

You seem to be missing the basis of my argument. You cannot make outright, dogmatic predictions when you don't actually know what will happen.

I'm aware of what 'dogmatic' means. Do you know what 'patronising' means? There is a saying - 'the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour'. Therefore considering what happened with previous top babyfaces perceived as stale by older fans, I know that Cena is going to likewise go from being a hated babyface to a beloved heel within a matter of weeks. Your perception of the reasons he is hated differ from mine.

Austin was indeed a bigger star than Cena but you initially said he was a 'much, much bigger star' which is quite different. I disagree with that comment considering Cena has dominated the main event picture for as long as Austin, if not longer, and I don't feel he should be dismissed in this way. Your point about Austin doesn't prove anything though because as I said before, Austin was NOT stale. The fans had NOT rejected him prior to his turn. Bret was stale, Hogan was stale, Rock was stale, and when they turned it rejuvenated their character with the audience that previously despised them.

The Hogan turn won over the majority of the haters that were fed up with him and that is my point - that the same will happen with Cena. You appear to have an irrational dislike of the guy based on your discussions with myself and others so you appear to want to put an emphasis on the tiny minority that won't be won over, perhaps because this minority would be the one you would find yourself in.

G-Money

Has anyone noticed that two of the best heels in the WWE aren't even wrestling? Vickie Guerreo and Michael Cole. I heard Vickie on Raw a few months ago and I've never heard anyone booed so heavily in a long time. Also Michael Cole is getting a great amount of heat at the moment too.

Punk is good heel but you like him because of that and don't really want to boo him.

I agree that Cena coming out the night after Mania all jokey and smiling isn't really the way he should be coming across if he's at all bothered that the Rock screwed him out of the title the night before. It makes him seem like he doesn't care.

jaykhunter

"No more Mr. Nice Guy" :pac:

also, I learnt what "dogmatic" meant from Star Wars Episode III

parker kent

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'm aware of what 'dogmatic' means. Do you know what 'patronising' means? There is a saying - 'the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour'. Therefore considering what happened with previous top babyfaces perceived as stale by older fans, I know that Cena is going to likewise go from being a hated babyface to a beloved heel within a matter of weeks. Your perception of the reasons he is hated differ from mine.

Austin was indeed a bigger star than Cena but you initially said he was a 'much, much bigger star' which is quite different. I disagree with that comment considering Cena has dominated the main event picture for as long as Austin, if not longer, and I don't feel he should be dismissed in this way. Your point about Austin doesn't prove anything though because as I said before, Austin was NOT stale. The fans had NOT rejected him prior to his turn. Bret was stale, Hogan was stale, Rock was stale, and when they turned it rejuvenated their character with the audience that previously despised them.

The Hogan turn won over the majority of the haters that were fed up with him and that is my point - that the same will happen with Cena. You appear to have an irrational dislike of the guy based on your discussions with myself and others so you appear to want to put an emphasis on the tiny minority that won't be won over, perhaps because this minority would be the one you would find yourself in.

My problem with this perpetual argument is phrases like "irrational hatred". If people just admitted that there are issues which causes many (more than a minority) to dislike what Cena has been doing on screen for 6-7 years, everything would flow a lot better. You may not agree, but they do exist. The way that I personally love RVD, but I acknowledge the issues others had with him in ECW or the WWE.

If you feel I am patronising, be aware I feel forced into it as any time anybody on here mentions Cena in any negative terms, they are met with the same posts over and over. In other words, "you irrationally hate him", "haters gonna hate" or "If he turns heel you'll all love him". If the issues with Cena were acknowledged, then some proper discussion could actually take place.

The length Cena has been on top does not mean he is anywhere near as big a star as Austin. Austin was the biggest star in wrestling's biggest era. The only other wrestlers on Austin's level are The Rock and Hulk Hogan. Cena simply should not be referred to as being comparable with them. He is the top face in a declining era. Some of the blame for that decline (note some not all), should be placed on the man who the company has been built around in that era.

As for the past being the best predictor of the future, there are as many failed turns as there are successful in wrestling history. Again that has been my point throughout, you simply can't state 100% either way how it will go. Some turns have worked, others have not. I'm not saying it won't work because I irrationally hate the man. I'm saying it may not work due to a whole host of issues. Some of which include a belief that a large amount of people have issues that go beyond mere staleness as a face. It is not just a tiny minority that dislike him. Nevertheless, a turn may work. But neither you nor I can say with positivity that it will play out one way or another.

I don't have a problem with people liking Cena. Everybody has their own favourites. But I do have a problem with being told that my dislike is irrational, that I'm a smark or that it will flick like a switch to love if and when he turns heel.

DM_7

parker kent wrote: »

You cannot make outright, dogmatic predictions when you don't actually know what will happen.

Of course people can make predictions about what would happen if Cena turned heel, people make make predictions about anything they like, you don't have to agree, but they can still make them.

parker kent

DM-ICE wrote: »

Of course people can make predictions about what would happen if Cena turned heel, people make make predictions about anything they like, you don't have to agree, but they can still make them.

Predictions are fine, we all do that. Outright guarantees about what will happen, or about fans reactions are different. There is a difference between a prediction and a dogmatic one.

Mr.Nice Guy

parker kent wrote: »

My problem with this perpetual argument is phrases like "irrational hatred". If people just admitted that there are issues which causes many (more than a minority) to dislike what Cena has been doing on screen for 6-7 years, everything would flow a lot better. You may not agree, but they do exist. The way that I personally love RVD, but I acknowledge the issues others had with him in ECW or the WWE.

If you feel I am patronising, be aware I feel forced into it as any time anybody on here mentions Cena in any negative terms, they are met with the same posts over and over. In other words, "you irrationally hate him", "haters gonna hate" or "If he turns heel you'll all love him". If the issues with Cena were acknowledged, then some proper discussion could actually take place.

The length Cena has been on top does not mean he is anywhere near as big a star as Austin. Austin was the biggest star in wrestling's biggest era. The only other wrestlers on Austin's level are The Rock and Hulk Hogan. Cena simply should not be referred to as being comparable with them. He is the top face in a declining era. Some of the blame for that decline (note some not all), should be placed on the man who the company has been built around in that era.

As for the past being the best predictor of the future, there are as many failed turns as there are successful in wrestling history. Again that has been my point throughout, you simply can't state 100% either way how it will go. Some turns have worked, others have not. I'm not saying it won't work because I irrationally hate the man. I'm saying it may not work due to a whole host of issues. Some of which include a belief that a large amount of people have issues that go beyond mere staleness as a face. It is not just a tiny minority that dislike him. Nevertheless, a turn may work. But neither you nor I can say with positivity that it will play out one way or another.

I don't have a problem with people liking Cena. Everybody has their own favourites. But I do have a problem with being told that my dislike is irrational, that I'm a smark or that it will flick like a switch to love if and when he turns heel.

With respect, you don't seem to appreciate the enormity of a Cena heel turn. Perhaps it is because you don't view him for the major star that he is (since you will put Austin in the same category as Rock and Hogan, but are passionately of the view that Cena doesn't belong - I disagree with this based on Cena's dominance of the recent era). You also talk about failed turns in wrestling history. Again you're refusing to acknowledge that this isn't just anybody here. This isn't Eugene or Hurricane turning. This is the WWE poster boy of the last decade. The guy who has been a babyface now going on 8 YEARS. You can essentially write the promo for him yourself (and not change it all that much from Hogan's heel promo when he turned - 'I held my head high, did everything for the charities etc')

The reason the Cena heel turn will work is quite simple - it will be based on truth. Cena HAS dealt with major abuse and negativity and dealt with it extremely well. Even his most vocal critics would surely agree with that. He is a hero and role model to young fans and has put up with the boos and jeers for so long, biting his lip for so many years, that when the turn happens the people who previously hated him (99% of them if you want me to be really specific) will begin to cheer him. It is just the nature of the business.

Wrestling fans are a fickle bunch and this has always been the case. If you think Cena ripping on the fans who used to idolise him won't be met with delight from the older fans who used to rip on Cena, then really, what have you been watching all these years? Incidentally, can you name me a mega babyface who went stale, turned and then wasn't cheered by those who used to hate said person?

Cena got himself over hugely as a heel back in '03. He was the most entertaining heel in the business which prompted his babyface turn a short time later. The adult fanbase that rejects him now were fawning all over him back then. You might have been one of a tiny few who were not, but you are the extreme minority if that was the case.

The reality is Batista turned heel and was perhaps the most interesting heel in the business last year. Cena has been viewed as more stale than Batista, is a far better guy on the mic than Batista, and is a better in-ring worker to boot. With all those elements being taken into account, and the track record of major babyfaces perceived as stale who then turned heel, I see nothing wrong with confidently predicting that those who hate him would soon be fawning all over a heel Cena. It's just the way it goes in wrestling.

parker kent

Cena simply has not had the same level of support The Rock, Hogan or Austin had. You cannot compare the effects of Hogan turning, the biggest face in the history of wrestling, with John Cena.

You surely must be able to see that Cena has never had the widespread support associated with other top faces? For 8 years they have been writing promos intended to get him over with fans. It has only worked with certain demographics. Why should a different promo or angle necessarily work where 8 years have failed?

Also, if you actually read what I say, I have been saying it may or may not work. I haven't said it won't work. I have said it depends on a number of things, whilst recognising they face numerous difficulties. Where we disagree is about whether Cena is the megastar you believe him to be. Ask the general public to identify pictures of Hogan, The Rock, Steve Austin and Cena and see who is the most recognisable. He is both the victim of and is partly to blame for this era lacking the stars others have had.

DM_7

parker kent wrote: »

Predictions are fine, we all do that. Outright guarantees about what will happen, or about fans reactions are different. There is a difference between a prediction and a dogmatic one.

Your the only one using the word Guarantee.

In this case MNG has provided many, many examples of why his opinion is the way it is.

This thread has basically gone the way of all the other Cena/Raw threads have for ages.

Bring back the Cena bashing thread so we can save all the other ones.

parker kent

DM-ICE wrote: »

Your the only one using the word Guarantee.

In this case MNG has provided many, many examples of why his opinion is the way it is.

This thread has basically gone the way of all the other Cena/Raw threads have for ages.

Bring back the Cena bashing thread so we can save all the other ones.

Without getting into semantics, the sentence "99% of those who hate him passionately will be fawning all over him when he does turn heel" sounds pretty much like a belief bordering on a guarantee. All I mean is that I'm not talking in certainties, whereas other posters are.

I want to have a normal debate about this topic. The thread is about the difficulties the WWE face with any possible Cena turn. Accordingly, there will be negative issues about Cena mentioned. It is not as simple as turn him heel and hey presto, all their problems are solved! But any time anybody says anything remotely negative about Cena, all the usual "Cena basher, haters" type stuff comes out. There is simply no need to try and discredit or dismiss the arguments that mention Cena in any negative connotations as being evidence of Cena bashing/hating.

I tried extremely hard in one previous thread to be reasoned about this and explain my position. But I was met with that type of "Cena hater/basher" line each and every time I have spoken about him. I'm not just a smark hating Cena for the sake of it. Nor do I actually hate him or think other people shouldn't like him. But my opinions and the opinions of an very large segment of wrestling fans should not be ignored either. You simply can't ignore that Cena has faced sustained negativity from fans like no other top line WWE face has ever faced before. The same as he is the top guy in an era with a plethora of booking and talent issues in a declining market. Wrestling is not as popular now as it was 10 years ago. Booking, changing markets and all sorts of issues are involved in that.

And I truly believe that a lead face that connects with all fans is lacking and is at least partly to blame for that decline. Cena is not delivering in the way Hogan, Austin or The Rock delivered. He is the first top line WWE star in the post-WCW era, with all the resulting issues that brings. So any heel turn with Cena needs to be considered with these issues in mind. A large amount of fans simply don't like him or connect with him. When Hogan turned, most wrestling fans could remember loving him. That was part of what made it special. Whereas with Cena, many already dislike him. And that dislike goes beyond smarks who dislike faces. Which is not really getting recognised in many of the posts on this thread.

The assumption is "smarks and haters will be fawning over him". Which is not necessarily true. They would have to plan and book it extremely well to get the result they need. Cena would also have to improve on the mic, improve his facial expressions and improve his in-ring work to win over fans who have issues with each of the above. He does not have the level of charisma or support that Hogan or The Rock had to overcome short comings in the ring. They will also need to have built a successor as lead face. This complicates the view that it is as easy as turning him heel and everything is hunky dory and everybody is fawning over him.

There are booking and talent issues regarding Cena. I want reasoned, balanced debate. I'm more than prepared to discuss to positives and negatives of Cena.

Bounty Hunter

something occured to me as The Crowd chanted "Lets go Cena, Cena Sucks" and The Miz pointed out the young voices chanting for Cena and the older voices against him, calling the youngsters idiots. With the kids it might just become cool to be the one who thinks Cena sucks soon, you know like the men do. I hope if the WWE do ever turn him heel they wont miss the moment when his audience think its cool to hate him.