Tips for descending

mjo

Hi everyone I need some tips on how to descend on a road bike...
Just bought a beautiful racer full carbon and i haven't use to the handleing yet.
My problem is that i get nervous and very stiff, thinking that i'm going to hit something on the road or go to fast... so i pull the breaks to hard and i dont relax
In consequence the next day my arms hurt and my whole body aches.
Any tips for a novice descending:o

Cork24

Bike may be to small for you or to bike to say your body hurts.
Try not having your arms locked, have at lest a bend on them so when you are on the road the shock is not going into your locked joints.

goldencleric

take it slow to begin with I suppose. Most importantly try to relax, I read a good tip a while ago about putting the tip of your tongue inbetween your front teeth and gauging the tenseness of your body that way.

Dubba

goldencleric wrote: »

take it slow to begin with I suppose. Most importantly try to relax, I read a good tip a while ago about putting the tip of your tongue inbetween your front teeth and gauging the tenseness of your body that way.

On Irish roads, Christ that's risky?

mjo

Cork24 wrote: »

Bike may be to small for you or to bike to say your body hurts.
Try not having your arms locked, have at lest a bend on them so when you are on the road the shock is not going into your locked joints.

The bike is a perfect fit.. Thanksfor your tip

Dubba

+ 1 on what Cork24 said about relaxing, also staying in one position for a long time, I find can cause stiffness post ride.

Re. going fast downhill i think being in the drops gives the most control. Also you're better off feathering the brakes than pulling them to hard, obviously you don't want a wheel locking up on a corner especially the front!

cdaly_

Dunno if this would help but you might consider lifting your bum off the saddle just a bit. That way you're carrying your weight on your legs and they'll be doing a suspension thing. Because you won't be holding them rigid, you might start being less rigid in your arms also. That assumes you're not pedalling on the descent though.

Also when braking hard, push your bum back off the saddle to shift your centre of gravity backwards. Makes your rear wheel less likely to lift...

Cork24

happened to me once going down a hill in the wet the back wheel span out on me went flying off the bike.

To make matters worst, a car was coming up the hill and i was flying right at it.

2 things i learned from that.

Check Wheels in Wet bring them down to about 80psi
and Second, hit the Brakes before hitting a bend on a hill

mjo

Thanks guys! think i pull the breaks to hard yesterday one of my fingers cramped... maybe was the cold

Cork24

It takes time, to get used to whats best,
Ride in high gears and sweat more, or just use low gears and save energy etc.

manwithaplan

There are techniques for descending in terms of picking the right line and keeping the outside pedal down through bends, use of front and rear brakes, getting into an aero position and other things. I'm not sure that's really your issue though.

You just need to get used to the bike and to travelling at speed. Make sure you are comfortable in the drops and use them when you descend. It will give you better control of braking and should lead you to let the bike run a bit more. Descending is the fun bit - you will learn to relax into it.

Dubba

Cork24 wrote: »

happened to me once going down a hill in the wet the back wheel span out on me went flying off the bike.

To make matters worst, a car was coming up the hill and i was flying right at it.

2 things i learned from that.

Check Wheels in Wet bring them down to about 80psi
and Second, hit the Brakes before hitting a bend on a hill

Nasty! I presume you didn't hit the car?

Also I'd have punctures galore at 80psi (cause off the old weight)

Cork24

no they had good breaks, unlike me...

i normally have the wheels at 110psi, but in wet i said i try the front wheel @ 95psi and the back @ 80psi

bcmf

A couple of things that I do when descending. Look at the road 50mtrs ahead. That way you can judge what you need to 'react' to.
Back brake for controlled braking - front brake for stopping .
Get comfy- Dont tense, Relax
keep your legs turning even if it's just turning them slowly as it will help you balance.
On rough surface I find keeping my feet/pedals @ 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock help.
On bends/Corners- inside leg up and knee pointed away from the bike.

Dubba

Yea looking down the road for potential obstructions is a must, also feet planted horizontal to the road and arse up of the saddle a fraction over rough sections of road helps for comfort / control.

xz

Dubba wrote: »

+ 1 on what Cork24 said about relaxing, also staying in one position for a long time, I find can cause stiffness post ride.

Re. going fast downhill i think being in the drops gives the most control. Also you're better off feathering the brakes than pulling them to hard, obviously you don't want a wheel locking up on a corner especially the front!

Exactly what happened to me about 9 weeks ago, but was back wheel locked up, went into a skid and highsided me. Wheel was a right off, and so were 5 of my ribs. New wheels bought, and ribs healed. But to get to your point about relaxing, thats, what I didnt do, at the crucial moment, when I made my decision to brake, instead of go with the bend in the road, I tensed my body and hence, lost control. a key factor in descending is to relax. It goes against what your brain wants you to do, when you are travelling so fast. Basically you have to tone down your primal survival instinct.

Cookie_Monster

knees against the cross bar and raise slightly off the saddle, give a much more stable feel

xz

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

knees against the cross bar and raise slightly off the saddle, give a much more stable feel

and chin about 4 mm above the stem

mfdc

bcmf wrote: »

A couple of things that I do when descending. Look at the road 50mtrs ahead. That way you can judge what you need to 'react' to.

I'm a crap descender, but this is the one thing that's helped me most. Look far far away down the road, not directly in front of you. Especially true in corners, you go where you're looking. I have an awful habit of staring straight at the corner and then having to more or less stop to get around - if you watch the exit and further down the road you'll find the bike more or less gets around itself.

Also, use the drops - it's easier to brake and more stable.

Harrybelafonte

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

knees against the cross bar and raise slightly off the saddle, give a much more stable feel

+1 and move yourself a little further back over the saddle too.

langdang

Is it corners that are causing the prob, or just the general feeling of that type of speed on teeny tyres? Are you descending with your hands on the drops or on the hoods?

ajk24

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Cycling/Descending_203.html

The Wexican

Was going to post asking the same question on decending.

Did my first ever dualathon last Sunday, after buying my first road bike the week before. Was absolutely terrible at the descents, but fine on the uphills, and used to make back a lot of the time lost but never enough. I am hoping that is really a matter of building up the confidence at high speeds over the coming weeks, though I am going to try out a few of the tips above.

deise muay thai

I find it similar to riding a motorbike, look as far head as you can see but still roll the eyes back for a quick scan of the road because all Irish roads are crap. Stay in the drops and never lock out your elbows keep your arms relaxed all the time look were you want to go. When turning right press your left foot down and lean into the bend accordingly (opposite for left turns), most important don't jerk the brakes, keep relaxed, have no fear and die living :cool:

michael196

build confidence in the bike by specifically checking the tightness of the quick release on both wheels at start of all spins,

use the rear brake predominantly in descending , only feathering on the front brakes

try to relax, slow down if u get nervous, I have never come off the bike on a descent .....


it should be a very rare event

bcmf

[QUOTE=michael196;71539422 I have never come off the bike on a descent .....


it should be a very rare event[/QUOTE]

I have had many close calls but only ended up in a ditch once. Brake cable snapped on the approach to a corner. ended up unhurt by sliding on a grass verge and into a ditch. I have eliminated that prob by simply not breaking.






*I usually have to descend like a demon to try an make up the hour I have lost on the ascent

07Lapierre

For me, the pain and suffering when climbing a hill soon disappears when descending. As you start to descend, relax your arms, hold onto the drops, grip the top tube with your knees, slide your ass back in the saddle, get your chin down onto the handlebars and "Let gravity do the rest" (assisted by some very rapid pedalling!). Enjoy..

TinyExplosions

michael196 wrote: »

build confidence in the bike by specifically checking the tightness of the quick release on both wheels at start of all spins

That is important advice... was only saturday that I got to the bottom of a descent to have AstraMonti point out that my QR had come undone!

michael196

Fast safe descending is a skill.

100Suns

My key thoughts while descending at speed, which I try to put into practice are:

Front brakes are for emergency use.
Brake while travelling in a straight line, not while cornering. if you are still braking when you start cornering, release the brakes-you will make it.
Look at where you want to go NOT where you don't want to go or where you think you are going but shouldn't be.
For long gentle curves lean with the bike keeping you weight on the outside.
For sharp turns, counter-steer. Keep your body upright and lean the bike into the corner pressing hard with all of your weight on the outside pedal and keeping your outside arm straight, pressing down on the bar (it's counter-intuitive but when you get the hang of it it is very effective). Practice this on a safe stretch of road. You need to be doing 30 kph+ to do it properly.
Pay your medical insurance if you can afford it.

TinyExplosions

100Suns wrote: »

My key thoughts while descending at speed, which I try to put into practice are:

Front brakes are for emergency use.
Brake while travelling in a straight line, not while cornering. if you are still braking when you start cornering, release the brakes-you will make it.
Look at where you want to go NOT where you don't want to go or where you think you are going but shouldn't be.
For long gentle curves lean with the bike keeping you weight on the outside.
For sharp turns, counter-steer. Keep your body upright and lean the bike into the corner pressing hard with all of your weight on the outside pedal and keeping your outside arm straight, pressing down on the bar (it's counter-intuitive but when you get the hang of it it is very effective). Practice this on a safe stretch of road. You need to be doing 30 kph+ to do it properly.
Pay your medical insurance if you can afford it.

I disagree strongly with this, front brakes are your most effective, and what you should mostly use to go from fast -> slow enough for the corner -I would tend to have about 80% power on the front, and 20% on the back. It slows you most efficiently, and stops the chance of your back wheel locking

07Lapierre

100Suns wrote: »

My key thoughts while descending at speed, which I try to put into practice are:

Front brakes are for emergency use.
Brake while travelling in a straight line, not while cornering. if you are still braking when you start cornering, release the brakes-you will make it.
Look at where you want to go NOT where you don't want to go or where you think you are going but shouldn't be.
For long gentle curves lean with the bike keeping you weight on the outside.
For sharp turns, counter-steer. Keep your body upright and lean the bike into the corner pressing hard with all of your weight on the outside pedal and keeping your outside arm straight, pressing down on the bar (it's counter-intuitive but when you get the hang of it it is very effective). Practice this on a safe stretch of road. You need to be doing 30 kph+ to do it properly.
Pay your medical insurance if you can afford it.

Good advise, except, I'd say use both brakes. At speed, one brake won't do much on its own. Use both brakes and brake in a straight line. If you only use the front brake "for emergency use", its too late. Use both, always.

100Suns

TinyExplosions wrote: »

I disagree strongly with this, front brakes are your most effective, and what you should mostly use to go from fast -> slow enough for the corner -I would tend to have about 80% power on the front, and 20% on the back. It slows you most efficiently, and stops the chance of your back wheel locking

If you brake early enough, feathering the back brakes, you minimise the chances of locking the back wheel. The instant you feel it locking release and gently re-apply the brake. Because you are travelling in a straight line the wheel is very unlikely to come around (unless you start throwing your weight around in a panic). I would only use the front brake to give the rear brake/rim a chance to cool down on a very long, twisty descent (think Alpe d'Huez etc.), or in an emergency. When travelling at speed, as you start to brake your weight shifts dramatically forward-braking under these conditions with the front brake, particularly if leaning the bike or on a wet road/debris, significantly increases the risk of the front wheel sliding out. By all means use the front brake if you feel safer but I'd be inclined to reverse the ratio stated.

TinyExplosions

100Suns wrote: »

If you brake early enough, feathering the back brakes, you minimise the chances of locking the back wheel. The instant you feel it locking release and gently re-apply the brake. Because you are travelling in a straight line the wheel is very unlikely to come around (unless you start throwing your weight around in a panic). I would only use the front brake to give the rear brake/rim a chance to cool down on a very long, twisty descent (think Alpe d'Huez etc.), or in an emergency. When travelling at speed, as you start to brake your weight shifts dramatically forward-braking under these conditions with the front brake, particularly if leaning the bike or on a wet road/debris, significantly increases the risk of the front wheel sliding out. By all means use the front brake if you feel safer but I'd be inclined to reverse the ratio stated.

Yes, but to descend at maximum speed, you don't want to brake early, you want to brake firmly into the corner, essentially as late as possible, then release the brakes as you turn, picking up speed on the way out.

The only feathering I'd really do would be on descents like you mention (D'Huez) as late braking puts a lot of energy into the rims

07Lapierre

100Suns wrote: »

If you brake early enough, feathering the back brakes, you minimise the chances of locking the back wheel. The instant you feel it locking release and gently re-apply the brake. Because you are travelling in a straight line the wheel is very unlikely to come around (unless you start throwing your weight around in a panic). I would only use the front brake to give the rear brake/rim a chance to cool down on a very long, twisty descent (think Alpe d'Huez etc.), or in an emergency. When travelling at speed, as you start to brake your weight shifts dramatically forward-braking under these conditions with the front brake, particularly if leaning the bike or on a wet road/debris, significantly increases the risk of the front wheel sliding out. By all means use the front brake if you feel safer but I'd be inclined to reverse the ratio stated.

Thats why you only brake in a straight line. If your leaning into a corner, you should be finished braking at that stage. Only using one brake increased your chances of braking a brake cable. Use both. How much pressure should you apply? Sufficient pressure on both brakes to slow you down. Once you've slowed down to the required speed, release both brakes, then lean into the corner. works for me anyway.

gman2k

07Lapierre wrote: »

... Only using one brake increased your chances of braking a brake cable...

The only increased risk I get from using one brake is not stopping.....

(Not directed at 07Lapierre)
Now, call me a spelling Nazi if you will, but the next time I see someone typing break instead of brake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's like - Do they have Dura-Ace breaks on there bikes over their?

velo.2010

Wonder what descent the OP came down. Is he a light rider?

I still find loose/bumpy surfaces tricky because I'm light. Feels like the bike will kick out from under me. Pedalling down a descent definitly gives more apparent control and reminds you that your not going as fast as you might think if you weren't pedalling!

First time down Bohernabreena I suddenly refound my lost christianity and called on all those above to help me out, 'holy Mary mother of god, christ almighty what have I done to deserve this, please make it end'.

Was that the sort of thing that came into your head?:)

mahoo

07Lapierre wrote: »

Good advise, except, I'd say use both brakes. At speed, one brake won't do much on its own. Use both brakes and brake in a straight line. If you only use the front brake "for emergency use", its too late. Use both, always.

using both brakes together is dangerous even when you're going in a straight line. when you use the front brake your weight is pushed forward onto front wheel and therefore the rear wheel is much more likely to loose traction if the rear brake is applied also.
i've experienced this myself. i did a particularly spectacular fish tailing maneuver coming in to enniskerry one time when i came upon an unexpected queue of traffic and pulled both brakes.. i was actually quite chuffed i held it together and got a wide eyed look of shock/admiration from the driver as i slid speedway style towards his car before righting myself and cycling on. my heart was THUMPING. anyway i only use one brake or the other now. never together

Leroy42

All great advice.

Use both brakes, don't use any brakes, only slow down in a corner, out of a corner, only descend on Tuesdays!!!!!

Confidence is the singlest most important aspect of fast descending. You need to have confidence in yourself and your bike. Without it, all the advice in the world won't make you any faster.

The main aim of descending is to make it down safely. Achieve the 1st aim, and then you can start to look at ways of doing it faster.

Bike tyres have amazing grip, and bikes are incredible at going downhill. They can do so far better than cars and motorbikes. But it all depends on your confidence.

Take the advice given on the thread (which really is good) and also do some digging on youtube etc. Take a descent that you currently feel uncomfortable on and try out some new approachs based on the advice. Don't try to be Cancellara or anything, take your time and get a feel for how much you can push yourself and your bike. Don't focus on how fast you are going, focus on how smooth you are. The smoother you are the, the faster will be become.

It is amazing how many people consider themselves good descenders and when you get behind one of them they are constantly breaking and sprinting. It is a complete waste of energy.

Without getting all mumbo-jumbo, you have to convince yourself that you can descend otherwise you never will do any great level. If you have friends that are better descenders try to match their lines/braking points on a descent. the 1st few times you may only last the 1st few bends but you will soon start to gain in confidence and start to see that you are finding it easier to stay with them.

Staying relaxed is the most important, at the end of the day, descending is probably the greatest thrill you can get on a bike, so it seems a real waste to do all that climbing to the top of a hill, and then spend the next few minutes petrified on the descent.

Thats my 2 cents anyway

07Lapierre

mahoo wrote: »

using both brakes together is dangerous even when you're going in a straight line. when you use the front brake your weight is pushed forward onto front wheel and therefore the rear wheel is much more likely to loose traction if the rear brake is applied also.
i've experienced this myself. i did a particularly spectacular fish tailing maneuver coming in to enniskerry one time when i came upon an unexpected queue of traffic and pulled both brakes.. i was actually quite chuffed i held it together and got a wide eyed look of shock/admiration from the driver as i slid speedway style towards his car before righting myself and cycling on. my heart was THUMPING. anyway i only use one brake or the other now. never together

What you experienced was "inexperience" . The fish tailing was because you were pulling the front brake too hard. Not using the front brake would not have improved the situation.

cdaly_

My biggest issue with descending is not knowing what the road surface is like ahead. As I come thundering down towards a bend and the varying colours of road surface suggest gravel / potholes / anything but firm smooth tarmac it just gives rise to a where do I point this feeling...

ROK ON

I like descending and have tried many techniques. Usually I slow coming into corners by air braking (staying in drops but coming out of aero tuck).
I prefer to feather both brakes before the corner. Joe Friels book has a good diagram of where one should brake descending into a corner. On many roads I use I stay well out from the verge. Attack the corner wide and exit tight to the verge, then repeat.

Stay low, in the drops, I keep body relaxed and keep my backside as far back in saddle as possible whilst still having some bend at the elbows as opposed to locking them.

I have punctured many times on fast descents. These techniques have helped me to slow to a stop safely within a reasonably short time.

Pat Kavanagh

100Suns wrote: »

My key thoughts while descending at speed, which I try to put into practice are:

Front brakes are for emergency use.
Brake while travelling in a straight line, not while cornering. if you are still braking when you start cornering, release the brakes-you will make it.
Look at where you want to go NOT where you don't want to go or where you think you are going but shouldn't be.
For long gentle curves lean with the bike keeping you weight on the outside.
For sharp turns, counter-steer. Keep your body upright and lean the bike into the corner pressing hard with all of your weight on the outside pedal and keeping your outside arm straight, pressing down on the bar (it's counter-intuitive but when you get the hang of it it is very effective). Practice this on a safe stretch of road. You need to be doing 30 kph+ to do it properly.
Pay your medical insurance if you can afford it.

This the best advice. Practice counter-steering on the flat on safe, clear, road. i.e. - approach obstruction, real or imaginery. Lean hand and body hard into the bars in the direction you want to go. As he says, it's counter-intuitive, but it's a skill to learn.
On downhill bends, scan an imaginery line on the road around the bend and follow it, leaning down on inside. Bike will follow. Don't watch bike in front.

mahoo

07Lapierre wrote: »

What you experienced was "inexperience" . The fish tailing was because you were pulling the front brake too hard. Not using the front brake would not have improved the situation.

guilty on the inexperience, but disagree on the pulling the front brake to hard. i read a good article afterwards on braking which described my situation perfectly (ill try find it)... problem was i pulled rear brake to hard while using front brake and my back wheel locked as there was very little weight on it. it just kind of skipped over the ground behind me...what i learned was emergency braking should be done with front brake while pushing your body back and low on the bike, with your arms braced against handle bars. ie get your centre gravity as far back from your front wheel as possible. this allows you apply maximum braking force to the front wheel without it skidding or you going over your handle bars. you can use a bit of rear brake too but you run the risk of doing what i did. thats where the experience comes in

Esroh

This is worth a read


http://www.flammerouge.je/content/3_factsheets/constant/descend.htm

mgmt

Esroh wrote: »

This is worth a read


http://flammerouge.je/content/3_factsheets/constant/descend.htm

fyp

nice article

El Hamos

I have only started cycling regularly, over the last 6 month or so. I hate descending, love climbing....must be something wrong with me
Great article, Esroh! Great thread for a downhill coward like meself.

oflahero

It's a good article alright, especially with its emphasis on preparation, but since most of us will only ever descend on open roads (restricted to only half the road, with the threat of oncoming traffic) it's a lot tougher to put what he says into practice safely.

TinyExplosions

oflahero wrote: »

It's a good article alright, especially with its emphasis on preparation, but since most of us will only ever descend on open roads (restricted to only half the road, with the threat of oncoming traffic) it's a lot tougher to put what he says into practice safely.

I find that you just treat the road as being a lot narrower, so instead of using the whole of it, you just use your half.... all the same tips work, if anything it makes you a better descender as you're going round tighter corners

oflahero

True dat. It's just that the sudden appearance of a car on a corner, even properly over on its side of the road, puts the heebie-jeebies up me. Need to HTFU I guess.

TinyExplosions

oflahero wrote: »

True dat. It's just that the sudden appearance of a car on a corner, even properly over on its side of the road, puts the heebie-jeebies up me. Need to HTFU I guess.

I get that too to be fair, particularly on twisty roads, where incoming cars can sometimes be on your side!

My personal motto is if you've not had one near brown trouser moment on a descent, you're not pushing hard enough