Why are we taking the pain so well?

mox54

eu/imf bailout, lying banks, rising unmeployment, wasteful public sector, overloaded public sector, no growth, stress test resutls, incompetent politicians, corrupt pooliticians and so on.............why do we take all this so calmly or are we like rabbits stuck in headlights, where's our breaking point!:eek: and what action should we be taking!:cool:

Denerick

Too many smilies.

The reason the Irish people are taking this so well, in my opinion, is because we realise we over indulged during the boom. There are 'Little Irelands' all over Turkey, Bulgaria, new absentee Irish landlords in South America... So I think most people accept we completely lost the run of ourselves. True to our ancestral Catholicism, we recognise that sin in this life will be balanced by punishment at some stage...

p1akuw47h5r3it

There are already few threads on why aren't we protesting, "just taking it all" etc.

Just search for them

_Cato_

Denerick wrote: »

Too many smilies.

The reason the Irish people are taking this so well, in my opinion, is because we realise we over indulged during the boom. There are 'Little Irelands' all over Turkey, Bulgaria, new absentee Irish landlords in South America... So I think most people accept we completely lost the run of ourselves. True to our ancestral Catholicism, we recognise that sin in this life will be balanced by punishment at some stage...

We didn't indulge ourselves during the boom. What life is worth living in a constant state of restrain? The problem is that a government with no mandate guaranteed all bank debts and another government that was given a mandate to burn bondholders hasn't. In the middle of this mess, we have overpaid and overstaffed public sectors screaming for more pay and politicians at every level of public life squeezing every last cent out of the public purse bordering on the criminal.

ilovesleep

Denerick wrote: »

Too many smilies.

The reason the Irish people are taking this so well, in my opinion, is because we realise we over indulged during the boom. There are 'Little Irelands' all over Turkey, Bulgaria, new absentee Irish landlords in South America... So I think most people accept we completely lost the run of ourselves. True to our ancestral Catholicism, we recognise that sin in this life will be balanced by punishment at some stage...

Speak for yourself if you lost the run of yourself.

davoxx

i guess it's the irish way .. reading other threads ... the irish choose to screw the system rather than fix it.

never have i seen so many people believing an unemployed person drawing benefits and bragging about screwing the system, is a hero.

the rich don't complain, they are not being taxed too much for all the mess they caused.
the middle class whine, but they feel it's their fault and don't whine, they'd rather leave ireland, and come back when the problem is sorted, claiming proudly that they are irsih!
the working class, stuggle and don't get time to complain. can't afford to take a day off.
the benifit seekers, just don't want to work - so they don't complain

and there is a general sense of feck everyone else, and screw the system for their benefit.

and alcohol ... we can distract ourselves from the pain.

to be honest, i think we need a good leader, a god of a man/woman, who can make people see what is wrong.


i see this like wife swap .. the families are in denial for a while, but then they see what can be improved and that their values may not always be right. i think in general, the irish wasted the celtic tiger ...


but not all of us jumped up onto the buy buy buy boom. but all of us are paying for it. and i'll think you'll find (we i find this anyway) that 8 out of 10 people won't complain ... because they were part of the buy buy buy, image image image. but they don't realise that the first part of the problem was the government. the second was the banks/developers/councils/auctioneers, then it was them.

i mean once i tell people that the tax breaks/stamp duty for house were and are stupid, they kinda see it was all setup to fail.

Yitzhak Rabin

Mainly because we haven't actually taken a huge amount of pain yet.

Inflated social welfare payments for everything from child benefit to rent/interest supplements.

Our public servants pay has only been cut a relatively small amount. There have been no job losses in the public sector.

There have been only a relatively small number of foreclosures on mortgages due to the one year no repossession orders.

The worst is yet to come in my opinion, when we struggle to repay the debts.

_Cato_

yekahS wrote: »

The worst is yet to come in my opinion, when we struggle to repay the debts.

I couldn't agree more.

There is some talk about marching at Easter. It seems some people have actually disembarked the new government euphoria train already.

Soldie

_Cato_ wrote: »

another government that was given a mandate to burn bondholders hasn't.

Neither Fine Gael nor Labour said they would burn the bond holders; they said they would seek to have the terms of the bail out renegotiated.

davoxx

yekahS wrote: »

Mainly because we haven't actually taken a huge amount of pain yet.

Inflated social welfare payments for everything from child benefit to rent/interest supplements.

Our public servants pay has only been cut a relatively small amount. There have been no job losses in the public sector.

There have been only a relatively small number of foreclosures on mortgages due to the one year no repossession orders.

The worst is yet to come in my opinion, when we struggle to repay the debts.

what about tax increases for the average paye? and all the charges that will come in soon enough?

johnnyskeleton

Possibly because to date all of the "pain" has not really been that significant. We haven't really been reduced to abject poverty. Despite people's protestations (valid or otherwise) about the affects of cuts, the cuts have not been deep enough to cause civil unrest.

PeterIanStaker

Wait till the default. Thats when the crap will hit the fan.

Denerick

_Cato_ wrote: »

We didn't indulge ourselves during the boom. What life is worth living in a constant state of restrain?

And you call yourself Cato?

Its called prudent economics. The Germans know all about it. Invest wisely in what you are good at, trade what you produce well, and generally look to preserve resources in case something unexpected happens.

Deny it all you want, but everyone benefitted enormously from the boom. Public spending skyrocketed, the tax base was eroded, people had more disposable income than ever before; we were literally one of the wealthiest countries on earth.

_Cato_

Denerick wrote: »

And you call yourself Cato?

Its called prudent economics. The Germans know all about it. Invest wisely in what you are good at, trade what you produce well, and generally look to preserve resources in case something unexpected happens.

Deny it all you want, but everyone benefitted enormously from the boom. Public spending skyrocketed, the tax base was eroded, people had more disposable income than ever before; we were literally one of the wealthiest countries on earth.

Of course there's no denying it - but with what money?

I was making a reference to people that did what is a basic human instinct.

_Cato_

Soldie wrote: »

Neither Fine Gael nor Labour said they would burn the bond holders; they said they would seek to have the terms of the bail out renegotiated.

I just watched TWIP literally five mins ago and the general thought is that FG have gone back on their words and Labour, as even the dogs know, said they wouldnt put any more money into zombie banks. Thats why they were voted in. Things change it seems but far be it from us to speak logically.

Einhard

I'm on the dole. I get €188 p/w, which more than covers my living costs, allows me a few pints every week, purchase the odd book, and save a little towards a college course in September. That partly explains why I'm not taking to the streets, and it explains too, I think, why most others, though angry, aren't storming the gates of Leinster House. It's simply because, despite our woes, in relative terms most Irish people have an enviable standard of living. People lash out when they're desperate- the vast majority of Irish people aren't desperate yet, so they don't lash out.

There's also the facts that people aren't idiots and won't lash out for the sake of it. They don't see a better alternative. Some also believe that the society that elected FF in three successive elections have some responsibility. taking them all together, it's understandable, I think, that we haven't rose in furious protest yet.

Also- democracy. We choose who leads us. We could have elected SF and the ULA but we didn't.

Wildlife Actor

yekahS wrote: »

Mainly because we haven't actually taken a huge amount of pain yet.

I agree. The only people really hit so far are certain of the middle classes who have lost everything (many had a lot to lose) and keep it quiet. Check out all the houses for sale but without for sale signs up. There are peoiple in this bracket that are absolutely screwed. They've never claimed benefits before so they're crap at playing the system. Some of these people did very well in the boom but in most cases they were just working hard at their job, not driving national economic policy.

The rest of us will follow...

pjd435

People dont realise we are in a depression and the s**t hasn't hit the fan yet. By 2014 or 2015 we will have a national debt of 300 billion€ whcih will have to be paid back. The government will burn through the 85 billion ecb loan then there will be no money left and we will have to live on what we take in on taxes. We will be forced into cutting public service wages and social welfare rates by 30-40% and It is then, when the real pain will be suffered.

davoxx

pjd435 wrote: »

People dont realise we are in a depression and the s**t hasn't hit the fan yet. By 2014 or 2015 we will have a national debt of 300 billion€ whcih will have to be paid back. The government will burn through the 85 billion ecb loan then there will be no money left and we will have to live on what we take in on taxes. We will be forced into cutting public service wages and social welfare rates by 30-40% and It is then, when the real pain will be suffered.

that is why we should do something now .. not afterwards (like last time)

so i guess the people just don't realise how bad it will be, and if they did they'd do something?

pjd435

I have a friend, is on the dole lives at home with is parents. He's been unemployed for 3 years, doesn't even want to work. He doent give up anything to his parents, he gave up the fags and drink. Now he says he saves 75% of his dole. He's not felling any pain

I have a friend who is a garda, says he still earns 800€ a week after tax with a bit of overtime, even after all the cuts. Says he is feeling the pinch though.

I know a man 60 who retired on sick grounds so he's claiming the sick benifit of 200€ until he eligible for the old pension at 65. Plus he earns 550€ a week public service pension.

The country cant go on like this.

People dont realise that the country is not a bottom less pit of money and at some stage the governement will run out.

ScumLord

What exactly should we be doing? Civil war?

Protest marches are about as useful as wiping your arse with greaseproof paper, they're a complete waste of time. I think it really shows how far removed from government and self control the Irish people really are that the only reaction they have to anything is to go out for a walk in a blind rage.

feicim

Soldie wrote: »

Neither Fine Gael nor Labour said they would burn the bond holders; they said they would seek to have the terms of the bail out renegotiated.

They said they wouldn't put a cent more into banks without "burden sharing" i.e. burning junior bondholders.

Anyhoo.. back on topic

I think the country is still in a state of denial. That is why the population as a whole is taking it so well. When people realise that FG (podge) are bascially FF (rodge) and that they have no ideas, no solutions and can't offer anything bar their hollow rhetoric, then maybe people will get off their arses and do something.

The country is banjaxed, but at the moment people are in denial / deluding themselves that things will turn around and pick up (despite all the evidence to the contrary).

feicim

ScumLord wrote: »

What exactly should we be doing? Civil war?

Protest marches are about as useful as wiping your arse with greaseproof paper, they're a complete waste of time. I think it really shows how far removed from government and self control the Irish people really are that the only reaction they have to anything is to go out for a walk in a blind rage.

Our political leaders have been hired to come up with policies.

They don't seem to be allowed to implement ones that make sense from an Irish point of view, (bowing to EU) and obviously feel that doing whatever the EU says is our best policy.

They should however, be coming up with strategies to create a sustainable irish economy, but like their predecessors they think they can borrow money to make all their cares go away. They are too content to rely on borrowed EU/IMF money to keep the economy afloat, its letting them off the hook with regard to taking the tough decisions that will save the countries economy (and by extension the welfare of Irish citizens) in the longterm.

petroltimer

Denerick wrote: »

Too many smilies.

The reason the Irish people are taking this so well, in my opinion, is because we realise we over indulged during the boom. There are 'Little Irelands' all over Turkey, Bulgaria, new absentee Irish landlords in South America... So I think most people accept we completely lost the run of ourselves. True to our ancestral Catholicism, we recognise that sin in this life will be balanced by punishment at some stage...

not everyone in ireland fu*ked up in the end of the boom, i saw house prices were to dear and did not buy so i am now sitting on healthy wad of cash, taking my time to look for a nice cheep recently reposed house to buy

davoxx

petroltimer wrote: »

not everyone in ireland fu*ked up in the end of the boom, i saw house prices were to dear and did not buy so i am now sitting on healthy wad of cash, taking my time to look for a nice cheep recently reposed house to buy

do you not find that the house prices have not fallen to the correct level to reflect demand and availability?
ie are you still waiting believing that prices are to high and will crash once the repos start or are you willing to buy now?

Inverse to the power of one!

We didn't indulge ourselves during the boom

Speak for yourself if you lost the run of yourself.

That's why we're taking it so well, instead of all us all standing up and saying that its not fair, we individually say not my fault, do nothing, and things carry along their merry way the way they always have in Ireland.

And that's why nothing will change regardless of who's in government etc....

Son Of A Vidic

Denerick wrote: »

The reason the Irish people are taking this so well, in my opinion, is because we realise we over indulged during the boom.

I love this 'we' business. We you say? Speak for yourself there. Many undoubtedly did over indulge, but many including myself undoubtedly did not.

petroltimer

davoxx wrote: »

do you not find that the house prices have not fallen to the correct level to reflect demand and availability?
ie are you still waiting believing that prices are to high and will crash once the repos start or are you willing to buy now?

I don't think they have come anywhere near there true level of price, but that is not to say they will get to the right price, with the banks and nama holding property off the market means its all so false still. If we had a real capitalist society there would have been a firesale of property by now, the market would have corrected itself and we would be on the road to recovery.

We live in a Fiat currency backed world and the only way that economy can work is through boom and bust, banks in the UK are back offering 100% mortgages again, its all going to start over again.

P. Breathnach

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I love this 'we' business. We you say? Speak for yourself there. Many undoubtedly did over indulge, but many including myself undoubtedly did not.

I didn't lose the run of myself during the bubble years (although I benefitted somewhat because my pay, and subsequently my pension, increased). But I do not use my prudence as an excuse to turn my back on my family, friends, neighbours, and the wider circle of my fellow citizens. It's my problem, too.