Is anyone elses Saorview signal getting glitchy?

CorkMan

When I first watched Saorview on my Samsung LE40C750 it was very glitch, the sound would be getting very interfered and the parts of the picture would stay the same for a second while the other parts would show the current picture.

But it was fine 2-3 weeks ago when I watched Tottenham-AC Milan on RTE2 HD on Saorview. But tonight I tuned into watch premiership highlights and the signal is glitchy again. Does this happen to anyone else?

Helium

Happened me watching Rugby last night.Was real heavy downpour at one point and signal broke up completely.

The Cush

Happened to me too last night, but only once. Can't remember if it was raining at the time.

Helium

Is this something we all have to put up with if weather is bad, or is it aerial problem.

I'm getting 100% signal quality & 92% signal strength,but quality takes dramatic nosedive for couple seconds during inclement weather thus causing picture freeze/breakup.

Fingleberries

We'd get frequent artefacts and 'glitchiness' on RTÉ 1 and 2 (rarely watch TV3, but I'd presume it was the same).
Anything from part of the picture freezing to people becoming green and '80's Music video' looking (leaving a distorted trail of the actors movement behind them on-screen)

Vince Cable

What's your analogue reception like?

People seem to have got this idea that DTT will be reliable even with a really poor aerial setup that gives rubbish performance on analogue; it doesn't work by magic.

I wonder does the SFN of Three Rock & Kippure fool some people into thinking they're getting good Saorview with bad analogue from one or the other (how much of an overlap is there)?

Fingleberries

Analogue Reception is grand - no bother with it. In north County Dublin and get all four Irish Stations without problems, clear picture and sound with no snow or breakup.

The UK Channels also come in OK (BBC 1, 2, UTV, CH4), but about 50-75% as clear as the Irish Analogue stations.

noelburke39

didnt know saorview was operational yet?can anybody tell we when its fully in place will we be able to access sky sports and othe such channels ? setanta?

Johnboy1951

Glad I found this thread ...... my PC was dropping audio every few seconds yesterday, but the picture was fine.

For the moment I will blame the transmission until I am sure.

CorkMan

Vince Cable wrote: »

What's your analogue reception like?

People seem to have got this idea that DTT will be reliable even with a really poor aerial setup that gives rubbish performance on analogue; it doesn't work by magic.

I wonder does the SFN of Three Rock & Kippure fool some people into thinking they're getting good Saorview with bad analogue from one or the other (how much of an overlap is there)?

Completely grand.

Jumpy

Its the Aliens sending a countdown by using our own systems.

Pangea

I find saorview very glitchy indeed, I got my signal boosted by the tv guy last week so I now have 100% signal quality but I still have the odd glitch.

Newtown90

Pangea wrote: »

I find saorview very glitchy indeed, I got my signal boosted by the tv guy last week so I now have 100% signal quality but I still have the odd glitch.

Glitchy in bishopstown cork too with my usb tuner, fine at home in Kerry and i'm a mile from the transmitter here in Cork..

Wierd...

Sam Russell

Currently RTE Radio 1 is not RTE Radio 1, it is something else. The whole datastream is messed up.

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

Currently RTE Radio 1 is not RTE Radio 1, it is something else. The whole datastream is messed up.

All OK here from Mullaghanish.

Macy0161

I've been getting similar on mine from Kippure the last few evenings - weather hasn't been that bad. Was going to check the signal strength this evening. I'm using an edison combo, and haven't had any issues on the terrestrial side until this.

egal

Wind turbines?

chasm

Have noticed this a lot for the last week or so, and it's getting on my nerves now, picture freezing and breaking up. I'm under the cairn hill area. Luckily i can switch over to the analogue stations at the moment, but i'd be interested to know why it has suddenly started to have these issues.

It's weather related.
In high pressure conditions,digital tv signals travel a lot further than old analogue.
I'm picking up perfect digital itv1 from cornwall here in wicklow tonight.
It's also got hd on ch47 so it's bound to be interfering with cairn hill tonight.

This is the downside of saorview and theres nothing that can be done about it.

The Cush

A lot of breakup here tonight from Mullaghanish (Ch 21).

There are two three threads active on this at the moment, this one and http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056232208 (and http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71593613#post71593613). No doubt there will be more threads as people switch over to DTT. I haven't had similar problems with analogue.

This might be something the RTÉNL Saorview people should include in their info. Perhaps it could be mentioned at one of the future RTÉNL Saorview trade events.

Some links from other threads
Tropospheric Ducting for the Newbies
Tropospheric propagation
Tropospheric Ducting Forecasts

yeah caradon hill cornwall is on fire tonight which is definitely whats causing your mullagh break ups.
It's causing some problems with arklow tonight aswell.

PressTheButton

Wonder if the forecasted Saharan Dust Plume will affect DTT/Satellite signals? (Click on link for satellite imagery.)

Vince Cable

Deleted User wrote: »

. . . digital tv signals travel a lot further than old analogue.

How? They're the same thing albeit more tightly modulated as multiple carriers & packed into the 8MHz channel; didn't think it affected their travelling ability.

galtee boy

The Cush wrote: »

A lot of breakup here tonight from Mullaghanish (Ch 21).

Just to concur, picture breakup on DTT from Mulla here in North Cork tonight was brutal.
However, as a side issue, I did a scan on my Dab tuner and got BBC national mux perfectly, plus quite a bit on fm from Wales and I must be a 100 miles from the East Coast !

Vince Cable

Vince Cable wrote: »

How? They're the same thing albeit more tightly modulated as multiple carriers & packed into the 8MHz channel; didn't think it affected their travelling ability.

because they are cofdm which is very robust in travel versus analogue.
You need very little signal to decode that versus analogue.
look at the many reports here for example of poor irish analogue but perfect dtt.

Antenna

The Cush wrote: »

A lot of breakup here tonight from Mullaghanish (Ch 21).

Deleted User wrote: »

yeah caradon hill cornwall is on fire tonight which is definitely whats causing your mullagh break ups.

In Co. Limerick it might be more likely CCI from Divis in NI - it has analogue Channel 4 on Ch21

The Cush, when it happens again check Ch24 analogue for any signs of a weak UTV from Divis??- as that channel is usually empty (apart from occasional DTT testing from Mullaghanish). Hopefully your TV doesn't have a picture mute on weak analogue signals.

Divis has occasionally been received easily in north Kerry in lifts, see this reception there of Channel 4 on Ch21 (note, it was before Mullaghanish DTT launched on 21):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKzTt6-5rp4

The Cush wrote: »

I haven't had similar problems with analogue.

One might expect some bit of interference to Mullaghanish TV3 (Ch27) at least?
Any UK transmitter (that might reach you) that uses Ch21 also uses Ch27 ! (analog or digital). Analogue interference (on analogue) would usually cause a 'venetian blind' effect, digital interference on analogue has the same effect as a drop in signal strength (more snow/noise)

Antenna

Deleted User wrote: »

This is the downside of saorview and theres nothing that can be done about it.

Though when transmitters go full power in May, viewers' reception will be immune, or a lot less prone to interference during 'lifts'.

you posted elsewhere

Deleted User wrote: »

All other transmitters except those with NI overspill will be going full power from saorviews official launch date [may 6th ?] which in most cases will mean a 6db increase in received signal.

An increase of 6dB in more simple language- is a multiplying of the power by 4 - which is a significant jump in power.

Vince Cable

Deleted User wrote: »

because they are cofdm which is very robust in travel versus analogue.
You need very little signal to decode that versus analogue.
look at the many reports here for example of poor irish analogue but perfect dtt.

How is that relevant to causing interference, apart from the fact you need very little signal for CCI?

It's the RF that causes the problems, whether it be multiple or single carrier (I suppose a digital multiplex would be a more efficient interferer).

Decoding a wanted signal & causing unwanted interference are seperate considerations.

brendanL

Had that problem when my dad first got the soarview tv at christmas.

Took down old aerial that had a perfect analogue signal, and put up a 50e one my mam had picked up in argos... or heatons can't remember which... it was tiny, like a foot long and it made the picture absolutely perfect, hasn't broken up once since.



Also on his tv there's an option that appears to buffer the picture a bit which can cut out choppiness, too much and the audio goes out of sync but it helped a lot before new aerial.

EDIT: actually just remembered... he setup new aerial pointing same way as old one and the signal was ****, then he pointed it at kippur after I whipped out my android phone and the layer app... inside of which was some random app in which showed you the direction of the base stations which was uber handy.

Peter Rhea

Antenna wrote: »

Analogue interference (on analogue) would usually cause a 'venetian blind' effect, digital interference on analogue has the same effect as a drop in signal strength (more snow/noise)

Yes, people seem to pick up quicker on the effect co-channel has on digital, for obvious reasons, although even slight analogue on analogue is noticeable.
If it gets like what I tuned into last night in Monaghan; Kippure & Maghera RTE1 on channel E, it's pretty much unwatchable.

Peter Rhea

brendanL wrote: »

EDIT: actually just remembered... he setup new aerial pointing same way as old one and the signal was ****, then he pointed it at kippur after I whipped out my android phone and the layer app...

Did you have 2 aerials pointed at Kippure (VHF & UHF).

What was analogue TG4 & TV3 like?

Peter Rhea

Vince Cable wrote: »

. . . It's the RF that causes the problems, whether it be multiple or single carrier (I suppose a digital multiplex would be a more efficient interferer).

Would the higher peak power (so I believe) of COFDM transmissions compared to traditional analogue be more likely to cause interference far away?

Vince Cable

I'm no engineer, I was merely pointing out the distinction between RF energy 'travelling', causing interference & the ability to decode a wanted COFDM transmission at a greater distance than you'd get satisfactory analogue reception (but the analogue would still cause CCI).

Sam Russell

I think that if you get enough digital signal, you get a perfect picture, but not enough gives nothing. With analogue, the signal deteriorates. With interference, not that much interference destroys the integrity of the digital signal completely, while leaving the analogue signal degraded.

So in a lift situation, CCI will destroy a digital signal, but leave an analogue signal just about watchable. I remeber watching bull-fights from Spain in Galway during lifts in the summer in Galway. Mahera became totaly swamped by the VHF signal from Spain at the time.

Vince Cable

Vince Cable wrote: »

How is that relevant to causing interference, apart from the fact you need very little signal for CCI?

It's the RF that causes the problems, whether it be multiple or single carrier (I suppose a digital multiplex would be a more efficient interferer).

Decoding a wanted signal & causing unwanted interference are separate considerations.

No With digital,strictly speaking,it's not the RF that causes the interference,otherwise SFN's would not work.
Three rock and kippure can both operate on ch 54 and both masts are viewable from most of Dublin yet they don't interfere as they are both transmitting exactly the same data stream.
The decoder is not confused.
You couldn't do that with analogue.

On the other hand,if your decoder is faced with a new competing set of data which is strong enough to over ride the wanted or normal local tx then you will find you have a new service for a while on loan so to speak thanks to the weather.

There is a threshold where one or the other wins.
The variance at either side of that threshold is where you will be receiving either one of the services but with some artifacts and break up from the decoders confusion caused by the competing service.
Once they are on the thresh hold ie similar strengths,the competing data sets just cancel each other out.
If you put a meter on your aerial in that circumstance,you will see the signal from both being received[you will see just one power level actually as they combine],it's just the decoder can't decode as both garble each other at that level.

Thats whats happening with this weather,theres ups and downs of signal visiting and during the up's,it causes break ups and freezes of the home picture.

With analogue,you get horizontal lines,the venetian blind effect but can still see your home service unless the visitor gets very very strong.
However with digital,it requires much less signal to carry what is actually a very robust data stream so unfortunately the effects of co channel in this weather are much more severe.

With analogue,you could see the interference.
But with digital,people who know nothing about the ins and outs of how this works will think theres a transmitter outage when this happens or that theres something wrong with the transmitter causing the drop outs or something wrong with their aerial.
Neither is the case.

It is vitally important for saorview though that your aerials signal level is peaked to the maximum possible on your local tx.
Otherwise the co channell drop outs will be worse when this weather happens.
The cowboy operators mentioned in other threads will not do that.They won't have the gear.
So my advice is to use a contractor registered on saorviews site,making sure that they have all the qualifications,have been doing this for a few years and have their insurance right etc etc.

Theres probably only a few registered at this stage yet if any but that will come soon hopefully by the way they have been talking at the trade meetings.

Souriau

Deleted User wrote: »

No With digital,strictly speaking,it's not the RF that causes the interference,otherwise SFN's would not work.
Three rock and kippure can both operate on ch 54 and both masts are viewable from most of Dublin yet they don't interfere as they are both transmitting exactly the same data stream.
The decoder is not confused.
You couldn't do that with analogue.

Can we not have SFN here?
One UHF channel cover all transmitter.
Can that not work for RTE DTT?

Vince Cable

Deleted User wrote: »

No With digital,strictly speaking,it's not the RF that causes the interference

RF is the delivery mechanism; if it wasn't propagating strongly outside its service area there would be no problem.

otherwise SFN's would not work.

. . . The decoder is not confused.
You couldn't do that with analogue.

The analogue-only tuner can just see changes in amplitude, frequency or phase; it doesn't know what they mean beyond that.

joceadaigh

Deleted User wrote: »

No With digital,strictly speaking,it's not the RF that causes the interference,otherwise SFN's would not work.
Three rock and kippure can both operate on ch 54 and both masts are viewable from most of Dublin yet they don't interfere as they are both transmitting exactly the same data stream.

Would it not have made much more sence then that relay services working within the catchment of a main transmitter would use the same frequency for the same mux. This would allow neighbouring transmitter groups to use completely separate frequencies. During 'trophospheric ducting'...Which I will read up on... relays within ur main transmitter group won't knock ur reception (as they are the same stream), and other transmitter groups won't either as there is less frequencies to co-channel. Or have I missundertud?

Vince Cable

Vince Cable wrote: »

RF is the delivery mechanism; if it wasn't propagating strongly outside its service area there would be no problem.

yeah but co channel has a phased effect on analogue whereas it has practically an all or nothing effect with digital.
It takes less propagation to destroy digital than analogue which is my point.

Most vhf viewers except maghera have not had this problem before,they're in for quite a shock.

Vince Cable

Deleted User wrote: »

. . . it has practically an all or nothing effect with digital.

That's just in keeping with the general effect interference has on COFDM (the 'digital cliff').

It takes less propagation to destroy digital than analogue which is my point.

That's debatable & not really a useful, objective comparison anyway.

Vince Cable

Vince Cable wrote: »

That's debatable & not really a useful, objective comparison anyway.

Sorry but you are wrong to say it's not an objective comparison.I've had both dtt and analogue here side by side[I even had an ondigital subscription in wicklow arranged over the phone with their call centre using my wicklow address] since 1999 and I can tell you it's definitely not debateable,it's fact.I do know what I'm talking about.

In more recent years Since Tv3 and Tg4 have been on air,I've had varying degree's of co channel on them in this type of weather but never lost them due to co channel except very rarely.
The same applies to presely analogue.

Both have had plenty drop outs in their digital form in this kind of weather..
It's also obvious from posts on this forum whats been happening as in this weather you get a surge of reception problem reports.

Vince Cable

At what point is the analogue service 'destroyed'? When do you say 'I've had enough of this' and stop watching?

This will vary between viewers & obviously the absolute limit will be reached after the digital transmission has ceased to be viewable.
The comparison is fairly pointless & increasingly irrelevant as analogue services will soon be a thing of the past.

Anyway my original issue was with the statement that digital transmissions 'travel' further to cause interference (which may have been a figure of speech and a reference to their effect on other digital services), but I don't have the knowledge to argue any further (and it was a bit pedantic anyway).

Vince Cable

Vince Cable wrote: »

Anyway my original issue was with the statement that digital transmissions 'travel' further to cause interference (which may have been a figure of speech and a reference to their effect on other digital services), but I don't have the knowledge to argue any further (and it was a bit pedantic anyway).

Well... I have to say again you are incorrect but then you appear not to have been aware of the way cofdm operates..we all learn something new every day!

For example I have been receiving perfect French Tv here in Wicklow at times during lifts since dso in northwest france which has been capable of blocking mt leinster saorview on ch 39 when it's been on.
There are others here that will testify to the same.

Never in a million years would french analogue from the same tx have made it here sufficiently intact to either be viewed or even seen never mind interfere with a local tx.

There may have been a residual analogue there from france but you'd want scientific equipment to measure it and it wouldn't affect analogue reception on a co channell local broadcast because it would be so weak,it wouldn't even register a faded picture.

A digital meter on the other hand would pick up a strong print from the cofdm signal from france when present,it obviously [and news to you obviously aswell] being much more robust.
As you've said,to be fair, you don't have the knowledge,there are enthusiasts on this board including myself who have been experimenting with this for over 30 years and I'm relaying that here.Thats all.
In those 30 years I've never seen french analogue make it to here at all.

Cofdm Signals from GB have a much shorter trip to take and are saorviews biggest high pressure weather problem.

In a nutshell,this problem will mean especially in the case of VHF viewers of RTE,that they will be experiencing glitches and drop outs at times in this weather [not all the time as visiting from afar signals do require a coincidence in the shape of the high pressure system and positioning for this to happen] and thats a degradation in service versus the old system.
The problem can be lessened,if their aerial is installed with a meter peaking it on the tx it's pointed to.
Most aerials up to now haven't been.

Uhf viewers will have had venetian blind effect co channel before,though they may not have been aware of whats causing it.
The level of analogue signal from a visitor that was sufficient just to cause moderate or light venetian blind lines on analogue seems to be sufficient to cause drop outs on digital as cofdm at that level is bringing enough data along with it to corrupt what the tv/decoder receives.

Antenna

Deleted User wrote: »

Never in a million years would french analogue from the same tx have made it here sufficiently intact to either be viewed or even seen never mind interfere with a local tx.

Its quite likely that French analogue did sometimes similarly reach there (and elsewhere on the coast) - but the French use of positive modulation for luminance (rather than negative modulation used everywhere else in the world) would have meant that TV's could not display a picture. This is a separate issue to the different types of colour encoding (SECAM/PAL) - Some other countries used SECAM with the usual negative modulation.

A typical analogue TV here would have been able to display at least a black-and-white picture of any other (excluding historic 405 etc) terrestrial TV system in the world, except the French one!

The sound portion of a TV broadcast is another matter again, but again the French were even more different, using AM (like the long defunct 405/819 line systems), whilst everywhere else used FM for the standard audio (albeit with differing carrier spacing standards).

I wouldn't entirely agree with that either.
I've had a tv here thats been capable of receiving french analogue for a number of years but nothing doing.
I've had spanish on vhf rarely alright.
That said,more people will be finding these visitors from now on as idtv's populate the epg with them by default.

It's confused some posters here enough to ask the question if saorview has now got the bbc's etc as the visitor has been robust enough in cofdm lifts to get in on their indoor aerial..

Vince Cable

Deleted User wrote: »

Well... I have to say again you are incorrect but then you appear not to have been aware of the way cofdm operates..

Can you educate me, then?

A digital meter on the other hand would pick up a strong print from the cofdm signal from france when present,it obviously [and news to you obviously aswell] being much more robust.

Words like 'robust' are easily thrown about, how is it more robust?

The Cush

I guess the best example the robustness of DTT Codfm vs. Analogue is here in Ireland.

The analogue TV network requires 170 transmitters to cover 98% of the population while the same coverage can be achieved with 51 DTT sites on lower power.

Vince Cable

Vince Cable wrote: »

Can you educate me, then?



Words like 'robust' are easily thrown about, how is it more robust?

:rolleyes:

Vince Cable

So no technical explanation then?

I just have to content myself with knowing that it works but not how?

Joe7

Vince Cable wrote: »

Words like 'robust' are easily thrown about, how is it more robust?

Probably because the multi carrier scheme resists fading better or somesuch.

Some 'enthusiasts' enthusiasm is only matched by their ignorance of and complete lack of apptitude for their chosen hobby.

Antenna

The robustness relates to multipath - which causes "ghosting" or double (or more) images on analogue. Provided these 'echos' are not beyond a defined limit in time they do not affect COFDM DTT at all.

Multipath happens due to reflections especially from tall metal-clad buildings, bare mountainsides etc. Indoor reception will have a lot of multipath due to 'clutter'.

However there is no special property COFDM has that radio waves would be better at bending long distances over the horizon etc during lifts or otherwise. It is not going to be any different to analogue in that regard at a particular frequency/channel.

BTW some of the problems in this thread during lifts might not be due to co-channel interference from another transmitter at all. 'Ducting' can result in a deterioration in signal strength to people who normally have stable reception, as they are under the duct that has formed and which has trapped most of the signal and is higher in atmosphere.
I have observed this from a mountain top transmitter 50 miles away which normally had stable reception. I saw it get weaker (maybe -5dB) on a signal strength meter during such conditions. But this was very unusual.