No Control Over My Own Account

littlejp

I instructed my bank last week to cancel any payments to my Electricity Supplier. I have been having a dispute with my supplier for over 6 months now and felt like I was talking to a wall.

I was onto them 2 weeks ago trying to resolve the issue and was told a supervisor would call me back. I had heard this countless times before and told them that if I didn't get the call back within 2 days I would cancel all payments to them until this dispute was resolved.
Sent written notice to my bank instructing them to stop all payments.

This morning a payment was taken from my account by this company.
I was pretty pissed off to see this so I rang my bank who told me they can refund the payment in the next 24 hours but there is nothing they can do to stop the other company from doing the same thing again.

Surely this can't be right? Do I not have final say on what goes out of my own account?

SteoL

littlejp wrote: »

I instructed my bank last week to cancel any payments to my Electricity Supplier. I have been having a dispute with my supplier for over 6 months now and felt like I was talking to a wall.

I was onto them 2 weeks ago trying to resolve the issue and was told a supervisor would call me back. I had heard this countless times before and told them that if I didn't get the call back within 2 days I would cancel all payments to them until this dispute was resolved.
Sent written notice to my bank instructing them to stop all payments.

This morning a payment was taken from my account by this company.
I was pretty pissed off to see this so I rang my bank who told me they can refund the payment in the next 24 hours but there is nothing they can do to stop the other company from doing the same thing again.

Surely this can't be right? Do I not have final say on what goes out of my own account?

Do you do online banking? You should be able to cancel the DD yourself via online banking. I'm with BOI and I know I can cancel DD's.

littlejp

Yep. I use Internet Banking. There are no current Direct Debits on my account but the bank told me the payment today was a brand new Direct Debit and that there is nothing they can do to stop them.
I have rang the other company and told them to stop. Was told someone would call me back shortly. That was 3 hours ago!

average_runner

Just close your account and create a new one with the bank.

littlejp

I've had this account for over 10 years.
That's not really the point. My point is if I tell my bank not to release funds to someone they should not do it. End of story.

Jet Black

It sounds like this company just set up a new direct debit and took the payment. They are able to do this once they have your account number and sort code. The agreement of the direct debit is between you and the company so once the bank have instruction on the account they will honor the payment. The easiest thing to do would be close the account as the company will just keep trying to take the money if an agreement with them connot be made.

littlejp

Just for arguments sake, if in the future I was applying for a loan or mortgage would it make a difference having an account for 1 year compared to having one for 10 years?

wmpdd3

from here:
http://www.ipso.ie/section/DirectDebitScheme

Responsibilities of the Key Players
Sponsoring Banks Must:

Ensure that Originators are aware of and comply with the Scheme Rules
Ensure that direct debit files are processed in accordance with agreed procedures and time frames
Ensure that Indemnity claims are promptly resolved
Take appropriate action with Originators who are not complying with the Rules

Make a formal complaint to the bank in writing as they have disobeyed your instructions.

Also make a formal complaint to the supplier about this and the problem you have then go to CER if its not resolved.

Blackjack

wmpdd3 wrote: »

from here:
http://www.ipso.ie/section/DirectDebitScheme

Make a formal complaint to the bank in writing as they have disobeyed your instructions.

How have the bank disobeyed instructions exactly?

amber2

A Direct Debit is an agreement between you and the company involved the Bank is only a facilitator in this has does not have any influence on the amounts, frequency or date that the Direct Debit is taken from you. All the bank does is agree to pay it for you from you account. If the bank cancel the Direct Debit for you they also tell you that you must contact the company also.

littlejp

amber2 wrote: »

A Direct Debit is an agreement between you and the company involved the Bank is only a facilitator in this has does not have any influence on the amounts, frequency or date that the Direct Debit is taken from you. All the bank does is agree to pay it for you from you account. If the bank cancel the Direct Debit for you they also tell you that you must contact the company also.

I spoke to the company before I spoke to my bank and they told me there were no more direct debits set up on my account.
Then I wrote to the bank instructing them to give no more money to this company.
Then this company comes along and the bank gives them my money.
The bank ignored my instructions.
How can this company have more say over my money than I do?

SteoL

littlejp wrote: »

I spoke to the company before I spoke to my bank and they told me there were no more direct debits set up on my account.
Then I wrote to the bank instructing them to give no more money to this company.
Then this company comes along and the bank gives them my money.
The bank ignored my instructions.
How can this company have more say over my money than I do?

Unfortunately you signed the DD mandate which gave said company control over your account. I, like you, learned the hard way and no longer sign up for DD's.

littlejp

SteoL wrote: »

Unfortunately you signed the DD mandate which gave said company control over your account. I, like you, learned the hard way and no longer sign up for DD's.

I understand that but should my instructions to the bank not override any previous agreements?

Jet Black

Theres nothing stopping the company from just setting up another one. The option for the bank to block a company from setting up a DD is not there. When they got the letter they probably just canceled the direct debit, thats the limit to what they can do.

You instructed the bank to stop paying the money. Then the bank recieve another mandate with the agreement between you and the company so its put on the account.

Check your account. If the direct debit was not there at the time the money came out it should return to the account.

amber2

You have no recourse with the Bank once you sign a direct debit and put your account number on your head be it. As i said the bank is only a facilitator and is only doing you a favour by paying DD's. Your signed agreement is with the Direct Debit Originator and your recourse is with them. The Bank do not monitor individual accounts for particular companies setting up DD's on your account they only cancel one particular DD with a particular reference number quoted. All correspondence with the Company should be in writing and keep copies so you have proof if you need to go any further.

Rebel1977

Bank dones not have control over direct debit, they are between you and the originator, as you gave permission to the company to debit your account, have to cancel it at the bank and also cancel it with the company involved. As you signed a direct debit mandate with a company its up to you to sort it out not the bank.

dotsman

Jet Black wrote: »

It sounds like this company just set up a new direct debit and took the payment. They are able to do this once they have your account number and sort code. The agreement of the direct debit is between you and the company so once the bank have instruction on the account they will honor the payment. The easiest thing to do would be close the account as the company will just keep trying to take the money if an agreement with them connot be made.

Wrong

Blackjack wrote: »

How have the bank disobeyed instructions exactly?

Em, because the op instructed them to cancel a dd and they didn't???

amber2 wrote: »

A Direct Debit is an agreement between you and the company involved the Bank is only a facilitator in this has does not have any influence on the amounts, frequency or date that the Direct Debit is taken from you. All the bank does is agree to pay it for you from you account. If the bank cancel the Direct Debit for you they also tell you that you must contact the company also.

Wrong

SteoL wrote: »

Unfortunately you signed the DD mandate which gave said company control over your account. I, like you, learned the hard way and no longer sign up for DD's.

Wrong

Jet Black wrote: »

Theres nothing stopping the company from just setting up another one. The option for the bank to block a company from setting up a DD is not there. When they got the letter they probably just canceled the direct debit, thats the limit to what they can do.

You instructed the bank to stop paying the money. Then the bank recieve another mandate with the agreement between you and the company so its put on the account.

Check your account. If the direct debit was not there at the time the money came out it should return to the account.

But that's still the bank's responsibility.

amber2 wrote: »

You have no recourse with the Bank once you sign a direct debit and put your account number on your head be it. As i said the bank is only a facilitator and is only doing you a favour by paying DD's. Your signed agreement is with the Direct Debit Originator and your recourse is with them. The Bank do not monitor individual accounts for particular companies setting up DD's on your account they only cancel one particular DD with a particular reference number quoted. All correspondence with the Company should be in writing and keep copies so you have proof if you need to go any further.

Wrong

Rebel1977 wrote: »

Bank dones not have control over direct debit, they are between you and the originator, as you gave permission to the company to debit your account, have to cancel it at the bank and also cancel it with the company involved. As you signed a direct debit mandate with a company its up to you to sort it out not the bank.

Wrong.

I take it you all work in banks:)? The amount of branch staff or telephone banking staff I have dealt with over the years who refuse to acknowledge simple facts with regards direct debits.

Direct Debit Guarantee wrote:

• You can request your bank to refuse a direct debit payment on your account up to close of business the day before the direct debit is due to be paid from your account
• You can cancel the Direct Debit Instruction by writing in good time to your bank

Direct Debit Paying Bank Responsibilities wrote:

• Paying Banks Must:
• Only pay direct debits in accordance with customers’ Instructions
• Ensure that unauthorised and/or cancelled direct debits are intercepted and returned immediately on presentation
• Promptly refund customers for indemnity claims and present the Indemnity to the Originator
• Assist customers in resolving disputes with Originators
• Inform the Sponsoring Bank if an Originator is not adhering to the Scheme Rules

It doesn't really come any more black and white than that.

OP, please make a formal complaint about this. Irish banks have a terrible history when it comes to direct debits, mainly due to lethargic attitude to consumer's rights and the bank's responsibilities. The more people complain about this, the more someone might actually step up and do something about it.
Complaint procedure is here.
If your bank does not resolve the issue quickly, complaint escalation form is here.

If you have the time, and are so inclined, I would recommend writing to the newspapers/Joe Duffy etc complaining, not so much about your bank, but about IPSO/IRECC who have failed miserably to regulate the scheme and protect customers.

Blackjack

dotsman wrote: »

Em, because the op instructed them to cancel a dd and they didn't???

littlejp wrote: »

There are no current Direct Debits on my account but the bank told me the payment today was a brand new Direct Debit and that there is nothing they can do to stop them.

According to the OP's bank, it was a new Direct debit, the old one was cancelled. This is therefore is an unauthorised Direct Debit.

From the IPSO website.
If it is established that an unauthorised direct debit was charged to a Payer’s account a prompt refund is guaranteed by the Payer’s bank. An Indemnity Claim is a claim made by the Payer’s bank in respect of an unauthorised direct debit being applied to its customer's account.

Paying Banks Must:
Assist customers in resolving disputes with Originators

Has the OP been refunded yet but the Bank?. If not, this is the banks responsibility to do so. He also needs to inform the Electricity supplier he's cancelling the DD Mandate.
Among the other things we don't know is if the OP has Informed the originator of the cancellation of the Direct Debit.


Importantly (and again taken from the IPSO website:
Cancelling a Direct Debit Instruction does not in any way alter an agreement you have in place with the Originator, and does not in any way impact on any liability you may have incurred for goods and/or services received

dotsman

Blackjack wrote: »

According to the OP's bank, it was a new Direct debit, the old one was cancelled. This is therefore is an unauthorised Direct Debit.

From the IPSO website.
If it is established that an unauthorised direct debit was charged to a Payer’s account a prompt refund is guaranteed by the Payer’s bank. An Indemnity Claim is a claim made by the Payer’s bank in respect of an unauthorised direct debit being applied to its customer's account.

Paying Banks Must:
Assist customers in resolving disputes with Originators

Has the OP been refunded yet but the Bank?. If not, this is the banks responsibility to do so. He also needs to inform the Electricity supplier he's cancelling the DD Mandate.
Among the other things we don't know is if the OP has Informed the originator of the cancellation of the Direct Debit.


Importantly (and again taken from the IPSO website:
Cancelling a Direct Debit Instruction does not in any way alter an agreement you have in place with the Originator, and does not in any way impact on any liability you may have incurred for goods and/or services received

According to the OP, he has informed the originator (at least twice is my understanding).

With regards it being a new, unauthorised direct debit, as opposed to the previously cancelled one, what's your point? Either way, it's the bank's responsibility, not the consumer's. I have seen it on this thread (and other's) that bank's can't prevent new, unauthorised direct debits. Of course they can, they just choose not to. It's not that they enjoy screwing their customers, or that they gain anything from it, it's just simply that they can't be bothered.

Customers don't complain enough about it, so some middle manager is not going to be bothered pressing the issue with his/her superiors/peers, insisting that the bank spend money on fixing a non-priority issue.

Blackjack

dotsman wrote: »

According to the OP, he has informed the originator (at least twice is my understanding).

With regards it being a new, unauthorised direct debit, as opposed to the previously cancelled one, what's your point? Either way, it's the bank's responsibility, not the consumer's. I have seen it on this thread (and other's) that bank's can't prevent new, unauthorised direct debits. Of course they can, they just choose not to. It's not that they enjoy screwing their customers, or that they gain anything from it, it's just simply that they can't be bothered.

Customers don't complain enough about it, so some middle manager is not going to be bothered pressing the issue with his/her superiors/peers, insisting that the bank spend money on fixing a non-priority issue.

If it's an unauthorised Direct Debit, then the originator has instructed this, not the bank. The issue, from the information we have here, would appear to lie with the actions of the Originator, not with the Bank.

dotsman

Blackjack wrote: »

If it's an unauthorised Direct Debit, then the originator has instructed this, not the bank. The issue, from the information we have here, would appear to lie with the actions of the Originator, not with the Bank.

I fully agree it's the originator who is the cause of the issue. But the bank is still responsible. And that's a very important thing to distinguish. Regardless of who's at fault, the bank is 100% responsible for ensuring that nobody takes money from a customers account without the customer's permission. It is up to the bank to deal with the originator, such as "Take appropriate action with Originators who are not complying with the Rules"

As per the Op's title, as a result of the bank's inaction, he has no control over his own account.

Blackjack

dotsman wrote: »

I fully agree it's the originator who is the cause of the issue. But the bank is still responsible. And that's a very important thing to distinguish. Regardless of who's at fault, the bank is 100% responsible for ensuring that nobody takes money from a customers account without the customer's permission. It is up to the bank to deal with the originator, such as "Take appropriate action with Originators who are not complying with the Rules"

As per the Op's title, as a result of the bank's inaction, he has no control over his own account.

So - to answer my original question:

Blackjack wrote: »

How have the bank disobeyed instructions exactly?

you responded:

dotsman wrote: »

Em, because the op instructed them to cancel a dd and they didn't???

Do you accept that the Bank cancelled the Direct Debit, and that the DD initiated by the originator for the debit on the 31st of March was an unauthorised Direct Debit?.

dotsman

Blackjack wrote: »

So - to answer my original question:


you responded:


Do you accept that the Bank cancelled the Direct Debit, and that the DD initiated by the originator for the debit on the 31st of March was an unauthorised Direct Debit?.

But they allowed the unauthorised direct debit, despite the op instructing them not to.

Blackjack

dotsman wrote: »

But they allowed the unauthorised direct debit, despite the op instructing them not to.

If the originator presents it as a new DD, there is no way to prevent.

dotsman

Blackjack wrote: »

If the originator presents it as a new DD, there is no way to prevent.

Ok, we seem to be going around in circles here. There IS a way to prevent it, but banks are reluctant to do that, and will continue to be reluctant until customers complain enough. It is the bank's responsibility to ensure that people/companies do not withdraw money from their customer's accounts without permission. Again, I refer back to IPSO

Direct Debit Paying Bank Responsibilities wrote:

• Only pay direct debits in accordance with customers’ Instructions
• Ensure that unauthorised and/or cancelled direct debits are intercepted and returned immediately on presentation

Blackjack

dotsman wrote: »

Ok, we seem to be going around in circles here. There IS a way to prevent it, but banks are reluctant to do that, and will continue to be reluctant until customers complain enough. It is the bank's responsibility to ensure that people/companies do not withdraw money from their customer's accounts without permission. Again, I refer back to IPSO

You're right, we are.
It's an unauthorised direct debit, presented as a new direct Debit.

Ideally if enough customers complain, an originator can have their facility removed, which would be enough to probably put them out of business as they would find it very difficult
a - to collect from their existing customers
b - to attract additional customers as the DD process is preferrable for most to pay bills, rather than cheques, which we're likely to see the back of in the next few years in any case.