Scotland pull players from Magners

ormond lad

Scotland quintet withdrawn from playing club rugby by national coach Andy Robinson

Scotland head coach Andy Robinson has withdrawn captain
Alastair Kellock, Richie Gray, John Barclay, Ross Ford and
Allan Jacobsen from club rugby for the remainder of the
season to focus on the Rugby World Cup and beyond.

Sidelined: Alastair Kellock and four Scotland team-mates
have been excluded from playing club rugby by national
coach Andy Robinson
Kellock, Gray and Barclay will not be available for Glasgow
and Edinburgh will be without Ford and Jacobsen for the
rest of the Magners League campaign.
The five players will train with their respective clubs but will
not be able to participate in contact sessions.
Robinson said: "This is a decision that's not been taken
lightly. It's a decision that's based on individual players and
their programmes. It's a reflection on the season and the
previous seasons they've had and it's done on an individual
basis."
Both Glasgow and Edinburgh have four matches remaining
in the Magners League this season but are struggling at the
wrong end of the table.
Kellock has been withdrawn in part because of a wrist
injury he has been carrying and the Warriors and Scotland
skipper will undergo a scan tomorrow.

from the telegraph
What are they doing? That's sheer madness

Podge_irl

Madness. Has taking players out of rugby for extended periods ever helped anyone? It certainly didn't help Ireland or the All Blacks last time round.

CIARAN_BOYLE

It will help Connacht secure 8th place

Anyone know who Scotland are playing in their RWC warm ups. If they have 5 games or more it might be a good idea to end the season of some key players early.

ormond lad

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

It will help Connacht secure 8th place

Anyone know who Scotland are playing in their RWC warm ups. If they have 5 games or more it might be a good idea to end the season of some key players early.

i think they only play ireland and italy in august

They are ring fenced for Heineken Cup so it doesn't matter too much to them anyway. Doesn't do much for the leagues credibility. Qualification has to start being based on your position in the league table rather than each country being treated differently. It would do wonders for the credibility of the league.

ormond lad

Borders no.2 wrote: »

They are ring fenced for Heineken Cup so it doesn't matter too much to them anyway. Doesn't do much for the leagues credibility. Qualification has to start being based on your position in the league table rather than each country being treated differently. It would do wonders for the credibility of the league.

i know they are ringfenced for HEC qualification but it doesnt bode well as the new zealand did it for 2007 pulling thier top players out of early super 14 and it blew up in their face.
Playing games can only benefit the players

There are only four games left and its not as if the Scots are overplayed anyway. Neither side are in the hunt for the play-offs so they should just finish out the season. Dont see what this will achieve.

ambid

Amazed by this. Always thouoght Robinson was a pretty deep thinker so would have thought he's have reviewed Eddie O'Sullivan's world cup diary.

Great news for Connacht, but bad news for the Magners League alright. I hate when people disrespect our league.

CatFromHue

i think scotland are only playing 2 warm up games for the world cup. one against us and the other against italy.

the edinburgh coach who was sacked was rumoured to have "denied requests from the national team management group regarding access to players on several occasions." you can see why if was asked silly things like this.

edinburgh play connacht, dragons and the two italian teams. all games they would be in a good position to win and put a good end to their season. glasgow would be expecting to win at least 2 of their last 4. its going to be a whole lot harder without your best players.

i wonder what the players think? there is still another 5 or so weeks before the last pool game. thats a whole lot of sitting around for them especially considering its now 4/5 months before their next game, which is a warm up game in august.

i cant help but feel this is a short sighted and counter productive move.

wixfjord

What a load of ****e!
So they're not going to play any competitive rugby until the WC barring warm ups!
That's a bad ploy.

thomond2006

Yes this was a factor behind Rob Moffat's departure, his relationship with the SRU broke down after the SRU demanded the players be rested.

It's absolute bollocks tbh, I thought Robinson was smarter than that.

Unlike Premier Rugby Ltd in England, Celtic Rugby has zero power and can do nothing about this.

hardCopy

This does seem crazy. As frustrating as our own player management scheme can be for provincial team, I think it's better to spread the rest games around like we do.

As said above, it also highlights the stupid qualification rules for the H-Cup.

PhatPiggins

ormond lad wrote: »

i know they are ringfenced for HEC qualification but it doesnt bode well as the new zealand did it for 2007 pulling thier top players out of early super 14 and it blew up in their face.
Playing games can only benefit the players

I don't think that was a factor on Kiwi's bottle job to be honest. They played incredible rugby in the pool stages. Injuries,bad luck, a few questionable decisions and a fantastic french performance put paid to their chances.

CatFromHue

hardCopy wrote: »

As said above, it also highlights the stupid qualification rules for the H-Cup.

the magners is a league were 10 teams out of 12 qualify for the heineken cup

to make qualification from the league more important / hard you'd have to reduce the number of places in the heineken cup itself.

Podge_irl

CatFromHue wrote: »

the magners is a league were 10 teams out of 12 qualify for the heineken cup

to make qualification from the league more important / hard you'd have to reduce the number of places in the heineken cup itself.

Which you can't do. The HEC wasn't necessarily set up to be a competition between the "best" in Europe, but to be an all-Europe competition. You can't remove HEC rugby from the Scottish and Italian sides and expect them to get better, so the status quo is what is needed (and I'm not sure lower ranked English/French sides would be much better anyway).

The league doesn't need European qualification to be a serious thing. Winning it should be a goal in and of itself. Leinster used the ML as a springboard to HEC success.

Besides, I really think this would have been done whether Scottish sides were fighting for places or not. Robinson isn't judged on how the club sides do so he's not going to care that much how he affects them with his preparation.

buck65

Yet Ireland can only play 3 of their provinces (apart from winning the competition and gaining another place), basically Ireland are the only Celtic nation in the league that one of their provinces miss out!

I agree with Borders, the playoffs are a great boost for the league at the top half (Munster would already have nearly won this with 4 to go in the old system!) but the teams at the bottom should have something tangible to play for and to make sure stunts like this are not pulled.

I would suggest the top 8 qualify for the HCup and the bottom 4 for the Amlin Cup.

Mr.Applepie

I'm calling early shenanigans!

Zzippy

buck65 wrote: »

Yet Ireland can only play 3 of their provinces (apart from winning the competition and gaining another place), basically Ireland are the only Celtic nation in the league that one of their provinces miss out!

I agree with Borders, the playoffs are a great boost for the league at the top half (Munster would already have nearly won this with 4 to go in the old system!) but the teams at the bottom should have something tangible to play for and to make sure stunts like this are not pulled.

I would suggest the top 8 qualify for the HCup and the bottom 4 for the Amlin Cup.

Actually Wales only have 3 guaranteed HEC spots too, Cardiff won the Amlin Cup last year so this year all 4 Welsh teams were in the HEC. ML actually has 9 guaranteed HEC spots, any more are down to an Irish or Welsh team winning either the HEC or Amlin.
Its still a ridiculous situation though, where a team can finish ahead of 4/5 other teams in the league and not qualify, yet all those teams below them do qualify. IMO its the main reason why the ML is not very competitive except for those teams fighting for a top 4 place - once certain teams are out of that they can rotate players and not have to worry about where they finish in the league, as they are guaranteed a HEC spot anyway.

stephen_n

Seems to fly in the face that it's better to have your players, playing more and training less. Really can't see any logic behind this at all. No match fitness going into a world cup is hardly ideal preparation.

smurphy29

This is a mad decidion. I cannot see what stopping guys playing five club games six months out from the World Cup is going to achieve, other thn upsetting the clubs and undermining the Magners League. Richie Gray, good and all as he is, is still only learning his trade and would surely benefit from any gametime he can get.

Can't imagine the clubs, or the Magners League being too happy about this. Scottish rugby falls another notch towards oblivion; a sad state of affairs.

Podge_irl

buck65 wrote: »

I would suggest the top 8 qualify for the HCup and the bottom 4 for the Amlin Cup.

You could realistically end up with both Scottish and both Italian teams missing out on the HEC that way though, which I think would be to the detriment of the competition and the countries in question.

CIARAN_BOYLE

My suggestion would be to cut Italy and Scotland from 2 guaranteed teams to 1 and cut Ireland and Wales from 3 guaranteed teams to 2. The four remaining places would go to the 4 teams that finished highest in the magners league that wouldn't qualify automatically.

CouchSmart

Currently 10 Magners teams qualify for the HEC. It should simply be the top 10 from the league that get the places in the HEC. Would definitely add something to the league to spice things up for the lower placed teams.

theoneeyedman

i can' t understand what hold robinson has.....a big new 4 year contract before the 6 nations, a poor set of performances in tha competition and then this.....appears full of sh1te from where i'm sitting

WeeBushy

Yeah they're only playing two warm up matches:

http://www.scottishrugby.org/content/view/1293/2/

So these guys will play max 2 games between now and their first group match. Dunno how that makes any sense.

Robinson's reasoning:

"It's a decision based on individual players and their programmes, and the amount of rugby they've had this season and in previous seasons,'' he said on Wednesday.

"It's been made in the best interests of Scottish rugby and a big point for me is that by taking these guys out now, after the World Cup you'll have a better player returning to the pro teams and beyond that, the touring schedules in 2012, the Lions in 2013, they're not going to get much of a break."
The decision to take the five out for the rest of the season — Glasgow's Max Evans will also miss two weeks and Edinburgh's Chris Paterson, the most-capped player in Scottish rugby history, is being rested for a fortnight — has been made in conjunction with team doctor James Robson.
The former Dundee GP explained, "To take each in turn, Fordy is someone we don't see a lot of on the treatment table but sometimes you have to think what might happen and he's been at 100% of the sessions.
"Chunk (Jacobsen) has played a lot and has had one or two niggles, so sometimes it's not big treatment. It can be a huge benefit just to have time off combat.
"Richie Gray is one of those you probably have to pull back from playing so much.
"We forget he's a young guy with a huge frame and he gets noticed because he's all over the pitch.
"John Barclay is always in the thick of things and has issues with his achilles and his back we'd like to get sorted.
"Al Kellock was nursing a wrist problem in the Six Nations we'd like to get checked and he also has issues in his knee and his achilles.''
Evans is getting tests on his elbow and groin while Paterson is in need of a break, having come back from a serious kidney injury last year, but it's hoped both will play for their clubs again this season.
None of the players were under threat of missing the World Cup, continued Robinson, but he admitted regretting giving "short notice" of the decision to pro team coaches Sean Lineen and Nick Scrivener.
"They're disappointed. They want their players to play, but they understood," continued the head coach. "Whether they agreed or not is down to them."
Robinson added, "If the teams were in contention for play-offs, we would have had the same discussions.
"The fact that they're not has been part of the decision process this time but had they been challenging for honours we would still have been looking to withdraw players because of fatigue and possibility of injury."
Robinson also said that it gave other players the chance to stake their claim to get noticed and suggested that Scotland's two August warm-up games, against Ireland and Italy, would be used to get up to speed but also determine the last places in the squad to go to New Zealand.
"Mostly the warm-up games will be designed to get us to the team to start the tournament against Romania and Georgia, but for a couple of players they will be trials," he added.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/Sport/Rugby/article/12431/scotland-stars-mothballed-for-edinburgh-and-glasgow-magners-league-games.html

Podge_irl

CouchSmart wrote: »

Currently 10 Magners teams qualify for the HEC. It should simply be the top 10 from the league that get the places in the HEC. Would definitely add something to the league to spice things up for the lower placed teams.

Except that is never going to happen. The SRU have 2 places by right, the Italians have 2, the WRU have 3 and the IRFU have 3. That these three organisations are jointly involved in another competition is irrelevant to the HEC. The SRU are hardly going to give up their automatic places (which is no diff to what the IRFU would do under the circumstances).

The idea behind the HEC was never to have the best 24 teams, but to have the best teams from each country.

Digifriendly

Podge_irl wrote: »

Except that is never going to happen. The SRU have 2 places by right, the Italians have 2, the WRU have 3 and the IRFU have 3. That these three organisations are jointly involved in another competition is irrelevant to the HEC. The SRU are hardly going to give up their automatic places (which is no diff to what the IRFU would do under the circumstances).

The idea behind the HEC was never to have the best 24 teams, but to have the best teams from each country.

You are right but the present sysyem still isn't fair. It is theoretically possible for e.g. Connacht to finish 4th in the ML behind the other 3 Irish provinces and miss ouit on the HC and an Italian/Scottish team finsh 12th and qualify is it not? Is this fair by any stretch of the imagination?

sock puppet

Digifriendly wrote: »

You are right but the present sysyem still isn't fair. It is theoretically possible for e.g. Connacht to finish 4th in the ML behind the other 3 Irish provinces and miss ouit on the HC and an Italian/Scottish team finsh 12th and qualify is it not? Is this fair by any stretch of the imagination?

Well yes. The Heineken Cup isn't meant to be purely a competition for Europe's elite teams. If it was the bottom half of the ML would be kicked out to be replaced by English and French sides.

edit: I also think it's a bit rich for people to start complaining now. Not many of us were complaining when Connacht and Ulster were propping up the bottom of the table.

Digifriendly

sock puppet wrote: »

Well yes. The Heineken Cup isn't meant to be purely a competition for Europe's elite teams. If it was the bottom half of the ML would be kicked out to be replaced by English and French sides.

edit: I also think it's a bit rich for people to start complaining now. Not many of us were complaining when Connacht and Ulster were propping up the bottom of the table.

BTW I'm an Ulster supporter and I think the system has been unfair for some time including when Ulsrter were at the wrong end of the table.

sock puppet

Digifriendly wrote: »

BTW I'm an Ulster supporter and I think the system has been unfair for some time including when Ulsrter were at the wrong end of the table.

Fair enough.

JustinDee

Digifriendly wrote: »

You are right but the present sysyem still isn't fair. It is theoretically possible for e.g. Connacht to finish 4th in the ML behind the other 3 Irish provinces and miss ouit on the HC and an Italian/Scottish team finsh 12th and qualify is it not? Is this fair by any stretch of the imagination?

Yes, it is.
Firstly for an Irish provincial side to go through, they must ensure they are not the fourth of four. For all to go through, one must win.

As far as the sport goes, its healthy. The purpose of the Magners League is to provide a professional platform for the countries as there none bar Wales outside of it.
Why would a league run by all four unions, condemn Italy or Scotland to nothing without even a chance to compete? Makes no sense to do so.

buck65

If you are lucky enough to get an Italian team in your group then that almost always qualifies the top 2 seeds in that group! How is that fair on the groups that don't get an Italian team?
If the HCup is all about representing countries from Europe then surely teams like Bucharesti should be there too.
If all teams had to qualify it would force them to improve and make the League far more competitive and worthwhile.
There is always the Amlin Cup anyway for teams that don't make it.

JustinDee

buck65 wrote: »

If you are lucky enough to get an Italian team in your group then that almost always qualifies the top 2 seeds in that group! How is that fair on the groups that don't get an Italian team?
If the HCup is all about representing countries from Europe then surely teams like Bucharesti should be there too.
If all teams had to qualify it would force them to improve and make the League far more competitive and worthwhile.
There is always the Amlin Cup anyway for teams that don't make it.

That would actually do nothing but ensure an even bigger gulf between the top and lower tier teams.
Rugby union is only openly professional since 1995.
There is nothing fairer than a competition draw, by the way. You're talking as if the lower-tiered teams are placed in groups. They're not (despite some of the silly conspiratorial rubbish that crops up in the likes of any internet forum from time to time.).

The ERC competitions are what represent Europe at the three tiers. Not just the Heineken Cup. That is why semi-professional/amateur teams as you have pointed out in Romania take part in the Challenge Cup.

Digifriendly

JustinDee wrote: »

Yes, it is.
Firstly for an Irish provincial side to go through, they must ensure they are not the fourth of four. For all to go through, one must win.

As far as the sport goes, its healthy. The purpose of the Magners League is to provide a professional platform for the countries as there none bar Wales outside of it.
Why would a league run by all four unions, condemn Italy or Scotland to nothing without even a chance to compete? Makes no sense to do so.

Disagree - Italy or Scotland would only be condemned if their teams weren't good enough to finish above 11th/12th place. It's up to these 2 countries to improve their teams - remember no Italian side has made it into HC knock out stages and Scotland has only only made it twice via Edinburgh and they lost both times in Quarter-finals. Present system of qualification is in my opinion unfair and rewards mediocrity. Also is Amlin CC fully representative when no Welsh or Scottish teams take part as has been the case for at least some seasons in recent years?

whysomoody

The current system promotes internal competition for Irish teams, Connacht cant settle to just be better than a few Italian teams they must strive to be better than Ulster and then the other 2.

stephen_n

So back on topic, basically what Robinson's saying is that what happens after the world cup is more important to Scotland than the world cup itself and having the players remain fit for touring in 2012 and possibly the lions in 2013 is the worth resting the players for. Bizzare

durkadurka

I reckon you're better off playing your players and taking your chances re injury.

Tbh if he did it in 2 weeks it would make more sense, just skipping the last two games but still hitting Pre season at the start of June

roverjoyce

i dont see what the problem with what Robinson is doing. think back to the start of the magners league what was the IRFU doing pulling their players not letting them play, was that not to the detriment of the ML. these are 4 key players for Scotland they might have played most of the games so far and no point risking injury for them in dead rubbers of matches.