Plight of Postdoc Researchers

hidinginthebush

Did anybody read trhis letter in Tuesday's Irish Times? As a postdoc in UCD, I think it's very good to have it out in the open!

Madam, – The vast majority of the 3,000 postdoctoral researchers in universities and other third-level institutions are employed on temporary contracts. They have less security of employment than an unskilled employee in general employment. They are conducting research at the very highest international level.
They are making an immense contribution to Irish scholarship generally and to the Irish economy. We are constantly reminded of the value of Irish research in attracting modern industry to Ireland and in fostering the “smart economy”.
But with one notable exception of Trinity College, third-level institutions are developing HR systems designed to prevent the researchers achieving continuity of employment. The most reprehensible arrangement has been put in place at UCD where “post-docs” are deemed to be on a “training course” for four years, after which their employment is discontinued. Under fixed-term legislation, four years is the maximum period for which an employee may be retained without accruing an entitlement to continuity of employment. This is not a coincidence.
The researchers will typically have over 500 points in Leaving Cert, an honours degree and a PhD. They will have served a minimum of seven years in third-level education. Together with the four years on the “training course“they will have accrued 11 years of scholarship at the highest level.
Many have formed families with children and are unable to secure a mortgage due to the temporary nature of their employment.
I appeal to the new Minister for Education, Ruairí Quinn, my contemporary at UCD, to act now to end this abuse. – Yours, etc,
PADDY HEALY,
Griffith Court,
Fairview, Dublin 3.

There was quite a laughable reply in today's paper from UCD higher-ups...

Madam, – In a letter on the plight of postdoctoral researchers (March 29th), Paddy Healy in his bid for Senate election blatantly misrepresents the career development for young researchers at UCD. Indeed, UCD has been to the forefront among Irish universities and has reformed the shambolic and ad hoc systems of the past to provide postdoctoral researchers with stable contracts of employment, well-defined paths of progression and support for career development. Postdoctoral researchers have many career options, including academia, public service and industry, and as entrepreneurs.
UCD’s Campus Company Development Programme in Nova UCD helps postdoctoral researchers start new enterprises. Its Seed Funding Schemes provide our young researchers with experience in competing for grants. It has built world-class facilities to support its research community. This is why UCD attracts postdoctoral researchers from all over the world.
Categorically, it does not limit their contracts to four years. UCD takes its responsibility to all of its staff very seriously and utterly refutes any suggestion otherwise. The author needs to keep abreast with the real problems now facing postdoctoral researchers, such as the Employment Control Framework, which seeks to cap the opportunities for our best and brightest. – Yours, etc,
PROF DESMOND FITZGERALD,
Vice-President for Research,
UCD Research,
University College Dublin,
Belfield,
Dublin 4.

To anyone who is a bit at a loss of the current situation, rules have been made wher you can now only postdoc for 4 years (enabling the university to wash it's hands of giving you a permanent contract), after which, if you do not secure your own funding (extremely hard to do!) you are out of there. So what do you all think?

Kasycas

There's also a reply today - 3 individual letters with differing opinions. As a postdoc myself I agree with the 2nd and 3rd replies

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2011/0331/1224293432684.html

Honestly, it's a government issue where doubling the number of PhDs has proved unsustainable. This was summed up nicely last year here. A knowledge economy will only work if those with knowledge are employable and PhDs are trained in a very specific area. Sure, translatable skills are acquired but these do not seem to rate against cheaper labour just out of college. Having the appearance of a highly educated population is more important than doing the right thing it seems. Many, many PhD's will have to leave the country.

It's laughable that Des Fitzgerald speak about Nova as if it's an answer. Most PhD's I know do not do a PhD with the want to become an entrepreneur. Nor would nova have the capacity for very many PhD's.

On one side, realistic career options should be outlined to someone accepted into PhD program however, a proper career structure should also exist alongside a framework and support to move into other industries that could use PhD graduates.

djpbarry

Kasycas wrote: »

Many, many PhD's will have to leave the country.

Many PhD’s should be leaving the country, regardless of the prevailing economic circumstances. Ireland is far too small a country to support every research career. Anyone doing a PhD who expects to remain in Ireland for the duration of their research career is being extremely short-sighted and is probably severely limiting their own opportunities.

Kasycas wrote: »

It's laughable that Des Fitzgerald speak about Nova as if it's an answer. Most PhD's I know do not do a PhD with the want to become an entrepreneur. Nor would nova have the capacity for very many PhD's.

Likewise, you cannot expect there to be sufficient capacity in Irish third-level institutions to accommodate every PhD graduate – that is simply not realistic.

Kasycas wrote: »

On one side, realistic career options should be outlined to someone accepted into PhD program however, a proper career structure should also exist alongside a framework and support to move into other industries that could use PhD graduates.

Could you be a little more specific? What exactly are you proposing? You seem to be implying that PhD graduates need to be lead by the hand into employment – why are they not capable of securing employment themselves (like everyone else)?

Kasycas

Many PhD’s should be leaving the country, regardless of the prevailing economic circumstances. Ireland is far too small a country to support every research career. Anyone doing a PhD who expects to remain in Ireland for the duration of their research career is being extremely short-sighted and is probably severely limiting their own opportunities.

Well my point of view would be that there should be less PhDs. Ultimately, the more PhD's there are the more those people will be unable to use them.

Likewise, you cannot expect there to be sufficient capacity in Irish third-level institutions to accommodate every PhD graduate – that is simply not realistic.

I agree completely but this is not apparent when you begin your PhD as they are being given out left, right and centre.

Could you be a little more specific? What exactly are you proposing? You seem to be implying that PhD graduates need to be lead by the hand into employment – why are they not capable of securing employment themselves (like everyone else)?

Apologies for not being clear enough because that is not what I am implying but if you do a finance degree, you are qualified to go into finance in any company, if you do a medical degree or architecture etc it's the same. These courses will provide the training for you to get a job, a PhD doesn't necessarily if you need to leave academia.

djpbarry

Kasycas wrote: »

Well my point of view would be that there should be less PhDs.

Why? To reduce the competition? There aren’t a huge number of opportunities for science graduates in Ireland at the moment – should students be discouraged from studying science?

Kasycas wrote: »

I agree completely but this is not apparent when you begin your PhD as they are being given out left, right and centre.

I don’t believe that’s true, but of course it depends on what field(s) you’re referring to.

Kasycas wrote: »

Apologies for not being clear enough because that is not what I am implying but if you do a finance degree, you are qualified to go into finance in any company, if you do a medical degree or architecture etc it's the same. These courses will provide the training for you to get a job, a PhD doesn't necessarily if you need to leave academia.

I’m really not at all sure what you’re getting at? A graduate is no more trained for a particular job than a PhD graduate is. In fact, surely a PhD graduate is better placed to enter the job market given that (a) they have at least as much “training” as a graduate, (b) they are likely to be older and, hence, more mature, (c) they are likely to have more “hands-on” experience than a graduate (depending on the field) and (d) they are more qualified.

Kasycas

Ultimately reducing the number of PhDs would reduce competition but that's not the aim. Would you train hundreds of specialists in any other sector? No, people normally get a job with broad skill sets and get trained up within that job. There are plenty of people with PhDs on the dole and that's because the bar has been raised on education, up from 3rd level education. What's next? People will need a 2nd degree or a masters or something else in order to stand out. While saying this, I also think its a false outlook on the part of the person in this trap. I don't believe that people with PhDs are more employable going back to your last point.

My experience with all the people around me is that a PhD does not make you more desirable in most positions outside of academia. Not even a lot of industry jobs recognize PhDs. They are too specialized/overqualified and the increase in pay required, even though they'll need to be trained into the specifics of the company, isn't worth the extra education. This, however, I believe is a phenomenon in Ireland because we don't have the companies here at present in science, for example, to do major R&D. Therefore, the tax payers money used to train people up will be used to help people emigrate to a country that can support their skills. If people really want a PhD in the first place and the Irish places for such are limited, then one would have to go abroad to do it in the first place and so, use other countries resources to be trained and already be knowledgeable in the fact that if they had to go abroad to do the PhD, the jobs market will probably also be abroad.

Anyway, why are you honing in on opposing my point of view when the OP opened the topic about the Irish Times? You've yet to give your opinion on that. Another letter today - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2011/0401/1224293541632.html

djpbarry

Kasycas wrote: »

...people normally get a job with broad skill sets and get trained up within that job.

...and someone with a PhD doesn’t receive any training?

Kasycas wrote: »

There are plenty of people with PhDs on the dole and that's because the bar has been raised on education, up from 3rd level education. What's next? People will need a 2nd degree or a masters or something else in order to stand out.

So you are complaining about the level of competition? You think that Ireland is producing too many PhDs? Doesn’t that depend on what field those PhDs are in?

Kasycas wrote: »

My experience with all the people around me is that a PhD does not make you more desirable in most positions outside of academia. Not even a lot of industry jobs recognize PhDs.

Again, it depends on the field of study. A PhD in Norwegian history is unlikely to be in demand in industrial circles, but PhDs in Science and Engineering certainly will be. I think you’re seriously over-stating how specialised and unique a PhD graduate is.

Kasycas wrote: »

They are too specialized/overqualified and the increase in pay required, even though they'll need to be trained into the specifics of the company, isn't worth the extra education.

The increase in pay? How much do you think a PhD with no relevant experience should be paid? You’re aware that post-doc salaries aren’t particularly high (generally speaking)?

Kasycas wrote: »

This, however, I believe is a phenomenon in Ireland because we don't have the companies here at present in science, for example, to do major R&D. Therefore, the tax payers money used to train people up will be used to help people emigrate to a country that can support their skills.

The same is true of graduates, but most are emigrating to other EU countries (so they’re still within the same economy) and most will return at some point in the future with valuable experience acquired elsewhere. Ireland is a small country with limited scope for scientists/engineers – emigration is always going to be a part of life, regardless of the prevailing economic circumstances. For example, long before I even began writing my thesis, I knew I’d be emigrating once I finished my PhD – the economic crash had little to do with it.

Kasycas wrote: »

If people really want a PhD in the first place and the Irish places for such are limited, then one would have to go abroad to do it in the first place and so, use other countries resources to be trained and already be knowledgeable in the fact that if they had to go abroad to do the PhD, the jobs market will probably also be abroad.

Again, this looks like you are advocating a reduction in the number of PhDs simply to reduce the competition. Again, this depends on what fields of study, but generally speaking, I don’t think reducing the pool of research talent being produced in Ireland is a particularly good idea. For example, you refer to the lack of private R&D conducted in Ireland – is reducing the number of PhDs produced in the country likely to attract more private R&D?

It’s also important to point out that PhDs are not produced for the sake of producing PhDs – PhD graduates emerge having conducted valuable research (in theory). Considering the cost of hiring a PhD student is pretty low, they represent a pretty low-risk investment from the taxpayers’ point of view – sure, they may not produce anything particularly ground-breaking during their studies, but they’re being paid less than the minimum wage, so no biggy. But a lot of PhD students do produce valuable research during their studies, representing a pretty good return on investment.

Kasycas wrote: »

Anyway, why are you honing in on opposing my point of view when the OP opened the topic about the Irish Times? You've yet to give your opinion on that.

I thought I’d made my opinion clear at this stage – anyone, anywhere, who goes into a PhD and expects to emerge with a job for life somewhere close to home is beyond deluded.

Kasycas

PhDs do not get the required training to leave academia - full stop. As there are too many PhDs to stay in academia then why are there so many PhDs??? Otherwise offer them the proper training to move sideways outside of their field.

It’s also important to point out that PhDs are not produced for the sake of producing PhDs – PhD graduates emerge having conducted valuable research (in theory). Considering the cost of hiring a PhD student is pretty low, they represent a pretty low-risk investment from the taxpayers’ point of view – sure, they may not produce anything particularly ground-breaking during their studies, but they’re being paid less than the minimum wage, so no biggy. But a lot of PhD students do produce valuable research during their studies, representing a pretty good return on investment.

PhDs are low cost labour - they may produce valuable research but are not valued workers when they earn less than minimum wage. For them then to have no job prospects is appalling.

The career structure in academia is fundamentally flawed. An article in Nature recently proposed an alternative career structure within science anyway in Ireland: http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110302/pdf/471007a.pdf

Here in the economist: "There is an oversupply of PhDs. Although a doctorate is designed as training for a job in academia, the number of PhD positions is unrelated to the number of job openings. Meanwhile, business leaders complain about shortages of high-level skills, suggesting PhDs are not teaching the right things. The fiercest critics compare research doctorates to Ponzi or pyramid schemes."

To expect to emerge with a job for life somewhere close to home is beyond deluded is correct because jobs for life do not exist anymore but you should not expect to have to leave your country after being trained in the education system for ~23 years of your life (without the recession).

djpbarry

Kasycas wrote: »

PhDs do not get the required training to leave academia - full stop.

What sort of “training” are PhD graduates lacking?

Kasycas wrote: »

PhDs are low cost labour - they may produce valuable research but are not valued workers when they earn less than minimum wage. For them then to have no job prospects is appalling.

If a PhD graduate has absolutely no job prospects, then one has to question the value of their PhD. However, as I’ve said repeatedly, not all PhDs are equal – some will have better prospects than others.

Kasycas wrote: »

The career structure in academia is fundamentally flawed. An article in Nature recently proposed an alternative career structure within science anyway in Ireland: http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110302/pdf/471007a.pdf

The position the author refers to already exists: scientific officer. There are two in my lab. There are other positions in my institute which would be above the status of post-doc but below that of (or complimentary to) group leaders, such as head of core technology facilities, such as our electron microscopy lab or sequencing lab. The author also claims that her model applies “market forces” – how is that any different to the current situation?

Kasycas wrote: »

Here in the economist: "There is an oversupply of PhDs. Although a doctorate is designed as training for a job in academia, the number of PhD positions is unrelated to the number of job openings. Meanwhile, business leaders complain about shortages of high-level skills, suggesting PhDs are not teaching the right things. The fiercest critics compare research doctorates to Ponzi or pyramid schemes."

I’ve already read that article – it’s pants. There’s a discussion on it here.

Kasycas wrote: »

To expect to emerge with a job for life somewhere close to home is beyond deluded is correct because jobs for life do not exist anymore but you should not expect to have to leave your country after being trained in the education system for ~23 years of your life (without the recession).

I’ve said it already and I’ll say it again – anyone in Ireland thinking of doing a PhD who is not prepared to leave the country at any stage should seriously reconsider pursuing a career in research.

Turbulent Bill

I'd agree with the OP that postdocs in UCD appear to be treated shabbily - a postdoc has nothing to do with a training course.

However I never understood the sense of entitlement of PhDs/postdocs to pursue academic careers. Any PhD candidate (even during the boom years) could see that the number of postdocs and tenured positions was always going to be limited, so getting local employment in your speciality was always going to be very difficult. The options are to go abroad (maybe to even stiffer competition) or use your transferrable skills to get employment here - I chose the latter route.