Irish heritage v. Being Irish

Killer Wench

I read through this section's charter so hopefully this thread doesn't go against any of the rules. So I'll cross my fingers and hope it doesn't get locked.

In the US, I meet a lot of Americans who identify themselves as being Irish when most do not have Irish citizenship, have never been to Ireland, and couldn't name their Irish ancestor if asked. This isn't exclusive to Irish heritage, but unlike other places, there seems to be a huge acknowledgement from Irish people (meaning born and reared in Ireland) of the "Irish" in the US.

I get the diaspora thing. I do. But, I wonder if a person who has no recent or solid ties to their ancestral homeland should consider themselves a part of that homeland, i.e. ain't been there, never gonna go.

Donkey Oaty

Killer Wench wrote: »

But, I wonder if a person who has no recent or solid ties to their ancestral homeland should consider themselves a part of that homeland.

Ah, sure let them.

Chaotic_Forces

Fu*king muppets. That's the nice way of saying it.

Duh... I'm Irish

"oh what county"?

"what's a county"?

Krusader

They are still part of the gaelic tribe that we are, they just got misplaced

Gaels, yes
Irish, no

Dionysus

Killer Wench wrote: »

In the US, I meet a lot of Americans who identify themselves as being Irish when most do not have Irish citizenship, have never been to Ireland, and couldn't name their Irish ancestor if asked. This isn't exclusive to Irish heritage, but unlike other places, there seems to be a huge acknowledgement from Irish people (meaning born and reared in Ireland) of the "Irish" in the US.

I get the diaspora thing. I do. But, I wonder if a person who has no recent or solid ties to their ancestral homeland should consider themselves a part of that homeland, i.e. ain't been there, never gonna go.

I'm fine with that. As an Irish American once said to me (I paraphrase): "the true Irish died or emigrated; the collaborators with the British were comfortably enough off to stay in Ireland".

Hmmm. Can. Worms.

LooseMoose

I completely understand it, no idea why people almost laugh about this if I was living in Ireland and my heritage was half Jamacian and half Italian of course I would be interested in them cultures.

As you said this is not exclusive to Ireland but I always seem to get the impression of Irish people seem to think it's unique to them or is that just me??

Duckworth_Luas

Killer Wench wrote: »

In the US, I meet a lot of Americans who identify themselves as being Irish when most do not have Irish citizenship, have never been to Ireland, and couldn't name their Irish ancestor if asked.

Do you know the names of your great-grandparents? In my experience I've seen that many don't give a flying fcuk about Ireland as it is today. Their ancestors left Ireland for the US and their nationality is American. However, their ethnicity is Irish. In America, especially in working class communities that is important.

If you take the history of the Irish in America, an incredibly fascinating story, who does that belong too? We often claim that history as our own and celebrate it. However, it's not ours, it belongs to Irish-Americans.

Killer Wench

Saying you are an Irish American or an American with Irish heritage is one thing, but isn't it another thing to identify yourself as "I'm Irish"?

Why I ask: I'm Black and Native primarily. I've been active in the Native community, have inherited a "Native" last name and have family members living within the tribal community. I'm culturally active, can speak some of my tribal language, and I have plans to return to our tribal lands. I meet many Americans who identify themself as being "part Indian" or "I'm Cherokee" but they couldn't name what tribe, who their Indian ancestors were, and/or have no knowledge of their tribal culture.

Killer Wench

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Do you know the names of your great-grandparents? In my experience I've seen that many don't give a flying fcuk about Ireland as it is today. Their ancestors left Ireland for the US and their nationality is American. However, their ethnicity is Irish. In America, especially in working class communities that is important.

If you take the history of the Irish in America, an incredibly fascinating story, who does that belong too? We often claim that history as our own and celebrate it. However, it's not ours, it belongs to Irish-Americans.

Actually, I can name my great-grandparents and I can name 12 of my 16 great-great grandparents and several great-great-great grandparents.

RachaelVO

Within reason it's not that big a deal... However there are times and it's a pretty tentative link

My grandmothers, uncles, grandfathers DOG was Irish. Now thats fecking well pushing it, but up to great grandparents works, after that you're not so much Irish (or part Irish) you just have Irish ancestors. In the states though, if your white you get put into european groups, usually depending on your surname...

dr gonzo

The issue is America as a culture (an amalgamation of other cultures) sees being Irish in almost racial terms i.e once you have it in your blood thats what you are and the keys to the kingdom of shillelaghs and funny jigs is open to you, while we i.e those born in Ireland see it completely differently, purely in terms of nationality so we therefore sometimes end up at odds with a poor American whos proud of a heritage that some Irish begrudge them. I certainly do not, im proud to call them Irish if they're proud to be Irish, what makes us so great that we pontificate about who gets to claim Irish heritage as their own and who doesnt.

The only time i will get angry about it is when Irish Americans, Anglo Irish, Irish Australians etc look down on us because we choose not to listen to the Pogues or watch hurling, that seriously bugs me. Case in point...

Dionysus wrote: »

"the true Irish died or emigrated; the collaborators with the British were comfortably enough off to stay in Ireland".

:rolleyes:

digme

Killer Wench wrote: »

I read through this section's charter so hopefully this thread doesn't go against any of the rules. So I'll cross my fingers and hope it doesn't get locked.

In the US, I meet a lot of Americans who identify themselves as being Irish when most do not have Irish citizenship, have never been to Ireland, and couldn't name their Irish ancestor if asked. This isn't exclusive to Irish heritage, but unlike other places, there seems to be a huge acknowledgement from Irish people (meaning born and reared in Ireland) of the "Irish" in the US.

I get the diaspora thing. I do. But, I wonder if a person who has no recent or solid ties to their ancestral homeland should consider themselves a part of that homeland, i.e. ain't been there, never gonna go.

Ever hear of an African American ?..........

RachaelVO

Killer Wench wrote: »

Actually, I can name my great-grandparents and I can name 12 of my 16 great-great grandparents and several great-great-great grandparents.

Me too. I know who my great grandparents are, and I know who a few of my great great grandparents are. They all (especially on my Mams side) are pretty colourful characters. Rebels n all. I'm very proud of them (without sounding conceited)!

Latchy

Remember the T shirts with the slogan '' there are two types of people in the world , those who are Irish and those who wish to be '' (very popular during celtic tiger years )

But you could add nationalitys of your choice in the slogan and people would relate .

Killer Wench

digme wrote: »

Ever hear of an African American ?..........

No, can you tell me a bit more about them.

digme

Killer Wench wrote: »

No, can you tell me a bit more about them.

Ya sure. They say they're from Africa.

Killer Wench

Fascinating. And they aren't?

Chaotic_Forces

digme wrote: »

Ya sure. They say they're from Africa.

They're American.

chillywilly

Dionysus wrote: »

"the true Irish died or emigrated; the collaborators with the British were comfortably enough off to stay in Ireland".

When I read that I pictured the person looking like this.

digme

Killer Wench wrote: »

Fascinating. And they aren't?

They consider themselves african american, the same way you said the irish americans call themselves irish.Pitty the were forced into slavery and lost all their own heritage and family history.

Chaotic_Forces

digme wrote: »

They consider themselves african american, the same way you said the irish americans call themselves irish.Pitty the were forced into slavery and lost all their own heritage and family history.

LOL no. They're American.

Duckworth_Luas

Killer Wench wrote: »

Actually, I can name my great-grandparents and I can name 12 of my 16 great-great grandparents and several great-great-great grandparents.

Great, now imagine that your an Irish-American and you can name all your great-grandparents who left Ireland for the USA. Up until the point they left Irish shores, all the history, heritage and culture of Ireland is part of them. After that their heritage is as part of the Irish-American community. Many, many people in the Irish-American community take great pride in their heritage.

In 1994 an Irish traditional dance troupe took Europe and then the world by storm. The two main dancers and choreographers were Irish-Americans. Up until the night it was first preformed Irish traditional dancing was sneered at in Ireland, but not in the Irish-American community. That's just one example.

Killer Wench

digme wrote: »

They consider themselves african american, the same way you said the irish americans call themselves irish.

Not all of us.

I prefer using the term Black because I don't have ties to an African community; unfortunately, the Black descendant of slaves don't have that information available to us because the system of slavery purposefully wiped out any clan or tribal connections amongst slaves. It was all about tearing down a person and rebuilding them into property.

The historical fact to note in this case is that African American is a term first coined by the US government. Prior to that, Blacks were called "Black", "Negro", or "Colored". It is no longer acceptable to call someone "Negro" or "Colored" due to the negative connotations those words bring up in regards to Jim Crow laws and the Civil Rights movement.

Revolution9

digme wrote: »

They consider themselves african american, the same way you said the irish americans call themselves irish.Pitty the were forced into slavery and lost all their own heritage and family history.

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

LOL no. They're American.

Lol slavery is like soooooo not funny omg.

digme

Killer Wench wrote: »

Not all of us.

I prefer using the term Black because I don't have ties to an African community; unfortunately, the Black descendant of slaves don't have that information available to us because the system of slavery purposefully wiped out any clan or tribal connections amongst slaves. It was all about tearing down a person and rebuilding them into property.

The historical fact to note in this case is that African American is a term first coined by the US government. Prior to that, Blacks were called "Black", "Negro", or "Colored". It is no longer acceptable to call someone "Negro" or "Colored" due to the negative connotations those words bring up in regards to Jim Crow laws and the Civil Rights movement.

I actually prefer the term black too.But surely if the blacks could trace back their roots or even knew they could trace them if they tried, they would be just like the irish americans you come across in that they feel they are, irish.

Killer Wench

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Great, now imagine that your an Irish-American and you can name all your great-grandparents who left Ireland for the USA. Up until the point they left Irish shores, all the history, heritage and culture of Ireland is part of them. After that their heritage is as part of the Irish-American community. Many, many people in the Irish-American community take great pride in their heritage.

In 1994 an Irish traditional dance troupe took Europe and then the world by storm. The two main dancers and choreographers were Irish-Americans. Up until the night it was first preformed Irish traditional dancing was sneered at in Ireland, but not in the Irish-American community. That's just one example.

I actually do have an Irish great-grandfather and I know his name. But I digress.

Again, nothing wrong with wanting to maintain an Irish-American community. Nothing wrong with being Irish American. Just from my perspective, it becomes problematic when one departs from identifying as "Irish American" to "I'm Irish". Do you see the distinction?

Killer Wench

digme wrote: »

I actually prefer the term black too.But surely if the blacks could trace back their roots or even knew they could trace them if they tried, they would be just like the irish americans you come across in that they feel they are, irish.

Some do and I find that problematic, too. I have friends who were born in Nigeria or who were first generation American born to Moroccan parents. One identified themself as being Nigerian American and the other as being "African American". They had solid and recent connections to specific African communities; where as Blacks have an ancestral connection to African communities but very few of us know which tribes they happen to be. I recently took one of those ancestry DNA tests to see if they could identify which African tribe I am descended from, I got a general idea but no concrete connection.

But again, calling oneself African American is much different than saying "I'm African" or "I'm Nigerian" when there are no recent connections to Africa or Nigeria.

Duckworth_Luas

Killer Wench wrote: »

I actually do have an Irish great-grandfather and I know his name. But I digress.

Again, nothing wrong with wanting to maintain an Irish-American community. Nothing wrong with being Irish American. Just from my perspective, it becomes problematic when one departs from identifying as "Irish American" to "I'm Irish". Do you see the distinction?

Ah, but they don't claim their nationality to be Irish, it's their ethnicity that's Irish. Do you see that distinction?

Killer Wench

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Ah, but they don't claim their nationality to be Irish, it's their ethnicity that's Irish. Do you see that distinction?

Then why not say, I'm of Irish heritage, as saying "I'm Irish" implies a certain claim to citizenship or national identity.

TheUsual

If one of your ancestors was Irish and you feel Irish as a result then welcome to the Irish race I say. It's in your DNA.
A lot of people around the world are a mix of this and that, so if someone wants to embrace or cherish their Irishness then fair play to them.

Muhammad Ali's great-grandfather was Irish. You can tell by the fact that he wouldn't shut up when he should. He just got LOUDER !! :pac:

http://theloop21.com/news/muhammed-ali-embraces-irish-ancestry

firefly08

Bear in mind that it's not unusual for certain traditions only to survive within a diaspora...for example, I honestly never heard of "corned beef and cabbage" until I saw someone talking about it in a movie. Over here in the US it's considered a really "Irish" thing. I always laughed, but on investigation, it is a traditional thing that has more or less died out back home. To me, the traditional thing was always bacon and cabbage - but years ago bacon was unheard of for the working classes (too expensive) and it was all corned beef.

Also, people over here keep asking me if I like my beer warm. At first I was like "WTF, are these people mad?" but actually they were basically repeating what they had heard about old timer pubs in rural Ireland not having refrigeration - so a lot of the ould fellas are used to drinking room temperature Guiness. They know this kind of thing and I don't! (and I grew up in a tiny village in the West of Ireland)

Having said that though, I regard Irishness as a way of life more than an ethnic identity. If you spend a few years in Ireland you'll either become one of us or you won't be able to stick it! Kind of like the Borg. So no, Irish Americans can keep up with all the traditions they like - and fair play to them - but you have to have lived in Ireland to be Irish

Chaotic_Forces

Killer Wench wrote: »

Then why not say, I'm of Irish heritage, as saying "I'm Irish" implies a certain claim to citizenship or national identity.

Because most of the fu*king idiots think they are Irish.

davyjose

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Fu*king muppets. That's the nice way of saying it.

Duh... I'm Irish

"oh what county"?

"what's a county"?

They have counties in America -- sorry to burst that bubble on you, pal.

What's more strange to me, is how the most educated, powerful, wealthy country in the world has deigned to have some kind of affinity to a nation where drinking is on a par with every other level of societal behaviour, and who treat them as subserviant, despite the fact that through business, industry, and culture they are a massive part of the reason we are who we are.

No other nation, outside the EU contributes to our wealth like they do (and I daresay, there's a lot more American industries in our "fair land" than french or german ones). No other nation, so powerful in every aspect, has such a strong connection to Irish culture -- i don't think anyone here whose spent more than a month in the US hasn't met someone whose Irish heritage means more to them than their American lineage.

Any allusion to the fact that we don't enjoy their love for a small nation, no-one else gets to enjoy, is sad, and wrong, and a little bit beyond the point of self-important arrogance, and downright spoiltness.

digme

Killer Wench wrote: »

Some do and I find that problematic, too. I have friends who were born in Nigeria or who were first generation American born to Moroccan parents. One identified themself as being Nigerian American and the other as being "African American". They had solid and recent connections to specific African communities; where as Blacks have an ancestral connection to African communities but very few of us know which tribes they happen to be. I recently took one of those ancestry DNA tests to see if they could identify which African tribe I am descended from, I got a general idea but no concrete connection.

But again, calling oneself African American is much different than saying "I'm African" or "I'm Nigerian" when there are no recent connections to Africa or Nigeria.

It is a bit messed up dealing with all these labels, but take your nigerian friend, he says he's nigerian american, but consider an someone born in the uk to irish parents and then coming back to live in ireland.He would then call himself irish english.
It sounds bonkers doesn't;'t it.But when you move to a neutral place like america your nigerian friend doesn't sound bonkers saying he's nigerian american .
Where you able to find out what part of africa you are from at all?

Diabhal Beag

If you're really Irish you don't boast about being Irish.

Chaotic_Forces

davyjose wrote: »

They have counties in America -- sorry to burst that bubble on you, pal.

What's more strange to me, is how the most educated, powerful, wealthy country in the world has deigned to have some kind of affinity to a nation where drinking is on a par with every other level of societal behaviour, and who treat them as subserviant, despite the fact that through business, industry, and culture they are a massive part of the reason we are who we are.

No other nation, outside the EU contributes to our wealth like they do (and I daresay, there's a lot more American industries in our "fair land" than french or german ones). No other nation, so powerful in every aspect, has such a strong connection to Irish culture -- i don't think anyone here whose spent more than a month in the US hasn't met someone whose Irish heritage means more to them than their American lineage.

Any allusion to the fact that we don't enjoy their love for a small nation, no-one else gets to enjoy, is sad, and wrong, and a little bit beyond the point of self-important arrogance, and downright spoiltness.

Yeah and? Most of them couldn't even name 5 of the 32 counties if their lives depended on it.

Killer Wench

digme wrote: »

It is a bit messed up dealing with all these labels, but take your nigerian friend, he says he's nigerian american, but consider an someone born in the uk to irish parents and then coming back to live in ireland.He would then call himself irish english.
It sounds bonkers doesn't;'t it.But when you move to a neutral place like america your nigerian friend doesn't sound bonkers saying he's nigerian american .
Where you able to find out what part of africa you are from at all?

I think the British are a unique case. I know an English dude who calls himself British but my Scottish friend is Scottish and my Welsh friends are Welsh.

As for my ancestors, they said that they were a Bantu-speaking people which I believe encompasses many different ethnic tribes across many different nations. Not entirely helpful but as that science improves, perhaps so will the info.

mike65

One wonders at what point Americans will simply think of themselves as being American.

TheUsual

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Yeah and? Most of them couldn't even name 5 of the 32 counties if their lives depended on it.

So they missed the Irish Geography classes and don't speak as Gaeilge.
This just means they had a different education that you didn't get. It doesn't mean that they have no Irish blood in them, or that where you were born decides your claim to be Irish ?

Chaotic_Forces

TheUsual wrote: »

So they missed the Irish Geography classes and don't speak as Gaeilge.
This just means they had a different education that you didn't get. It doesn't mean that they have no Irish blood in them, or that where you were born decides your claim to be Irish ?

Actually it does. You were either born here and are Irish or you aren't. End of dicussion.

firefly08

One wonders at what point Americans will simply think of themselves as being American.

I'm guessing you have never been to America.

Believe me, they consider themselves American first and foremost and they place that ahead of just about everything else.

TheUsual

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

End of discussion.

Oh right bedtime.
Goodnight.

Chaotic_Forces

TheUsual wrote: »

Oh right bedtime.
Goodnight.

Well that's a wonderful argument. Problem is that you are born where you are and are from that country. I know you want it to be some magical world were you can say "I AM HE-MAN FROM GREYSKULL" or whever the heck he's from but it's not like this.

Duckworth_Luas

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Yeah and? Most of them couldn't even name 5 of the 32 counties if their lives depended on it.

There was a thread here a week ago about an online Irish county game, some posters here struggled to get 5.

Chaotic_Forces

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

There was a thread here a week ago about an online Irish county game, some posters here struggled to get 5.

No, that was to locate them. I can easily rattle of 10 states in America and I've never even set foot on the land.

mike65

firefly08 wrote: »

I'm guessing you have never been to America.

Believe me, they consider themselves American first and foremost and they place that ahead of just about everything else.

Evidence suggests it doesn't take much to prompt vague wooly emotional feelings for places halfway round the world though.

davyjose

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Yeah and? Most of them couldn't even name 5 of the 32 counties if their lives depended on it.

Yeah and? Lol. Oh wow, how can i argue with "yeah and"?

Let me guess -- you're on the Trinity College debate team?

"I'm against the cultural impact of globalization on smaller business and the economical influence they wield on smaller economies"

"Yeah and!!!"

"Oooh ya got me there!!!"


:pac: There's a room full of people laughing at you here, buddy!!!

Chaotic_Forces

davyjose wrote: »

Yeah and? Lol. Oh wow, how can i argue with "yeah and"?

Let me guess -- you're on the Trinity College debate team?

"I'm against the cultural impact of globalization on smaller business and the economical influence they wield on smaller economies"

"Yeah and!!!"

"Oooh ya got me there!!!"


:pac: There's a room full of people laughing at you here, buddy!!!

Yeah... so? What do you think? That I care that you and your mates think it's
entertaining to laugh? good for you.

Duckworth_Luas

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

No, that was to locate them. I can easily rattle of 10 states in America and I've never even set foot on the land.

Yet you're an expert on the idiosyncrasies of the Irish-American sub-culture of the USA?

digme

Killer Wench wrote: »

I think the British are a unique case. I know an English dude who calls himself British but my Scottish friend is Scottish and my Welsh friends are Welsh.

As for my ancestors, they said that they were a Bantu-speaking people which I believe encompasses many different ethnic tribes across many different nations. Not entirely helpful but as that science improves, perhaps so will the info.

Now your complicating things.The only reason he is saying that is the fact they own more than england.

I think it is a racial thing more than a country thing.If a nigerian moved to somalia he wont call himself nigerian somalian.

Hopefully it does improve and you can find out some more.
Africa is gigantic so it would be cool if you could narrow it down.

Chaotic_Forces

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Yet your an expert on the idiosyncrasies of the Irish-American sub-culture of the USA?

My what?