Driving Instructors Confused Over New Rules

Faith+1

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0328/driving.html

No surprise really.

Robxxx7

no quotes from anyone in that news item ..just more media scaremongering giving more misinformation

ADIDriving

The new rules are long and flawed, but not that difficult. I find it ridiculous how so many instructors are having trouble understanding them. I do believe that there are lots of instructors out there who have not got their heads around it. In the meetings between the RSA and the instructors, the RSA reps explained answers again and again. Emails have been sent out answering all the questions that were asked at these meeting.

SteveAdti

ADIDriving wrote: »

The new rules are long and flawed, but not that difficult. I find it ridiculous how so many instructors are having trouble understanding them. I do believe that there are lots of instructors out there who have not got their heads around it. In the meetings between the RSA and the instructors, the RSA reps explained answers again and again. Emails have been sent out answering all the questions that were asked at these meeting.

I agree that instructors should understand the programme at this stage, however it does mean that there is no room for professionalism and common sense to apply the system without questioning individuals ablilty.
Instructors know what is required but don't know how on earth it can be applied.

ADIDriving

SteveAdti wrote: »

I agree that instructors should understand the programme at this stage, however it does mean that there is no room for professionalism and common sense to apply the system without questioning individuals ablilty.
Instructors know what is required but don't know how on earth it can be applied.

The students ability bears very little relevance on the delivery of the lessons, which is what I think you are saying. An ADI can 'give the lesson' and sign off that the job has been done. A note should be made that the student needs to practice the objectives. They are then required to practice for three hours before the next lesson. Most students will have achieved the required out comes before the next lesson.
If the student has not met the pre-lesson requirements they can't begin the next lesson. If this is because they did no practice, they must accept that it is their fault. If they have any complaints with the process referr them to the RSA. You could also catch up in the next lesson and then sign off. I have a feeling this will happen alot with lesson 1, but only lesson 1. This is because they are required to drive before their first EDT lesson, after that it will generally be plain sailing.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

SteveAdti

"If the student has not met the pre-lesson requirements they can't begin the next lesson. If this is because they did no practice, they must accept that it is their fault. If they have any complaints with the process referr them to the RSA."

Assuming you saw the report on RTE that has been posted in this forum> They clearly state that no one will be forced to do more than 12 Hours.
Are you telling me that common sense will prevail over people wishing to avoid spending money.
I spoke to an ADI examiner last week who informed me that they will be watching for people being stamped off on the log book and being put through the 12 hours of EDT too soon and not being taught properly.
They will be taking it up with individual instructors.!
I really do agree with what they are trying to achieve but disagree with the method.
We will face the brunt of pupils frustrations and the ignorance of the RSA

ADIDriving

SteveAdti wrote: »

They clearly state that no one will be forced to do more than 12 Hours. Are you telling me that common sense will prevail over people wishing to avoid spending money.

Yes. All your current students take more lessons then they are legally required to. Have you never had a student take more then 10 / 12 lessons. The requirements are in print. Making it workable is the time management of the instructor.

I spoke to an ADI examiner last week who informed me that they will be watching for people being stamped off on the log book and being put through the 12 hours of EDT too soon and not being taught properly.
They will be taking it up with individual instructors.!

RSA spokesman Brian Farrell insisted the new rules were very straight forward. “The instructor’s job was to provide the lesson and certify that it’s been completed,”
“The fact that learners don’t have to achieve any of the steps under the new rules, and only have to present themselves for the lessons, may risk giving drivers a false sense of compentence, ” Cathy Bacon.
The RSA have recommended lessons every 2 weeks, a student can choose to deviate from this. By not being taught properly, I assume they mean not the syllabus. I would love to hear how they will go about 'taking it up with individual instructors'.

I really do agree with what they are trying to achieve but disagree with the method.
We will face the brunt of pupils frustrations and the ignorance of the RSA

My only remaining issue is that there is a requirement for pre-EDT driving. If this is explained to learners when they get their permit we are ok. If not, agree with their annoyance and send it to the RSA.

It is going to happen. Don't think how it can't work. Think how it can work.

SteveAdti

Yes. All your current students take more lessons then they are legally required to. Have you never had a student take more then 10 / 12 lessons. The requirements are in print. Making it workable is the time management of the instructor.

The problem that occurs now is that a pupil would have listened to an instructors advice based upon their level of competentcy. However the RSA are making general statements about what is required which parents will home in on and blame the ADI for the shortfall of the pupils ability[/B]
I admire your confidence but i have 14 years of running my own driving school that tells me this is a major problem. I have the abilty to make it work but not many pupils have

ADIDriving

SteveAdti wrote: »

I have the abilty to make it work

Then you will be ok.

SteveAdti

PLease dont quote out of context

ADIDriving

I simply mean that it seems, on the basis of what you have said, that you will be able to make the flawed EDT workable. As any good instructor will have to do. There will be issues, but if we explain the situation showing the RSA documents we can show that the fault will lie elsewhere.

bernyh

I don't think much of the new introduction makes any sense, why insist it takes place over six months? Sure insist on at least 12 lessons, but I think the crux of it should be that a new driver should not be allowed to apply for the driving test.

I think that the driving test should only be applied for on behalf of the student by an approved driving instructor who thinks the pupil is competent on the road. I'm pretty sure that's how it works in the UK.. (open to correction there)

loobylou

ADIDriving wrote: »

I simply mean that it seems, on the basis of what you have said, that you will be able to make the flawed EDT workable. As any good instructor will have to do. There will be issues, but if we explain the situation showing the RSA documents we can show that the fault will lie elsewhere.

This is exactly the point. (Almost) everyone agrees that it is flawed, what is being argued here is to what degree. This is a once off opportunity to introduce badly needed reform to the system and my worry is that we will blow it by creating something so ill thought out that it will not gain public support.
The public backlash is going to be aimed at the ADI's as per the tone of yesterdays RTE report (greedy instructors,etc) instead of where it will truly belong, with the RSA who came up with this overly complicated system.

Robxxx7

Who the heck are Irish Driving Instructors Association (IDIA) ? They've been very quiet throughout all the news regarding EDT ..and they wait till the last minute to pipe up ... laughable

How many ADI's do they represent ? because it sounds like they are speaking for all of them.


Actually just looking at their webpage they represent about 40 instructors according to their list .... very small percentage

Faith+1

On average it will still only cost about €1000-€1200 to complete lessons and the 12 modules. I'm not saying that's small change but compare that to Germany when you'd expect to pay €3000-€4000 to get you licence.

Our good friends in Brussels want a standardised driving test throughout the 27 member block and unfortunately the days of Ireland making it's own rules are long since passed.
If getting a licence will secure a job, I'd say that's €1000 well spent.

DrivingTestTips: Brian

Plus EDT will make a difference to insurance, wait and see.
Probably later today or next week.

ADIDriving

Robxxx7 wrote: »

Who the heck are Irish Driving Instructors Association (IDIA) ? They've been very quiet throughout all the news regarding EDT ..and they wait till the last minute to pipe up ... laughable

How many ADI's do they represent ? because it sounds like they are speaking for all of them.


Actually just looking at their webpage they represent about 40 instructors according to their list .... very small percentage

They are bigger then that. One of the bigger Driving instructor organisations. Rarely kick up much of a fuss about anything.

ADIDriving

Faith+1 wrote: »

On average it will still only cost about €1000-€1200 to complete lessons and the 12 modules. I'm not saying that's small change but compare that to Germany when you'd expect to pay €3000-€4000 to get you licence.

Our good friends in Brussels want a standardised driving test throughout the 27 member block and unfortunately the days of Ireland making it's own rules are long since passed.
If getting a licence will secure a job, I'd say that's €1000 well spent.

Should cost a lot less then that. I would expect the average cost of 12 lessons to be 400 give or take. Add three more on there for what ever reason and you are only at 500. New or unsucessfull instructors will charge maybe 100 less. Big school in north Dublin probably 100+ more.

Robxxx7

ADIDriving wrote: »

They are bigger then that. One of the bigger Driving instructor organisations. Rarely kick up much of a fuss about anything.

Not according to their website.. Besides perhaps they should have got a bit more vocal about this 6 months ago for their 40 members... Bit late in the day now

DrivingTestTips: Brian

Can I ask!

Why are ADIs fighting against the RSA and ADI Unit?

The EDT 12 lessons are a great move in the right direction.

Faith+1

The plot deepens....

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/row-erupts-over-number-of-lessons-learners-must-take-2598195.html

DrivingTestTips: Brian

Faith+1 wrote: »

The plot deepens....

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/row-erupts-over-number-of-lessons-learners-must-take-2598195.html

The ADI should log feedback and then sign-off on the EDT lesson. That's it.
The learner is only subject to 12 mandatory lessons, any lessons outside of that is up to the learner.

Faith+1

DrivingTestTips: Brian wrote: »

The ADI should log feedback and then sign-off on the EDT lesson. That's it.
The learner is only subject to 12 mandatory lessons, any lessons outside of that is up to the learner.

How is the further 36 hours of lessons going to work?

They also have to complete up to 36 hours of additional 'homework' with a parent or other suitable sponsor -- someone with a full driving licence.

MascotDec85

Personally I think that the attitude of some ADI's at the EDT role-out meeting I attended was a bit, dare I say, stuck in the 1980's.

Time moves on, changes are being implemented for the general good. The aim here, as I've said many times is to change the attitude to learning to drive in this country which has existed for decades. It will take time, people directly affected as the come in will moan and moan. Kids in their early teens will know no different and get on with it.

I was talking to some fellow ADI's at the meeting and questioned that attitude of other ADI's who seemed to have a bee in their bonnet about the EDT. At the end of the day we are professionals who should embrace the changes for what they are, a step in the right direction.

What message does it send out to the public when people who "represent" ADI's come out and condemn it. They don't represent me

DrivingTestTips: Brian

Faith+1 wrote: »

How is the further 36 hours of lessons going to work?

They also have to complete up to 36 hours of additional 'homework' with a parent or other suitable sponsor -- someone with a full driving licence.

They are only there as time the learner needs to spend practicing.

Faith+1

DrivingTestTips: Brian wrote: »

They are only there as time the learner needs to spend practicing.

But does the learner have to show prove of this on test day?

MascotDec85

Faith+1 wrote: »

But does the learner have to show prove of this on test day?

No, initially the learner may have to bring the logbook, stamped by the ADI, to the test. As things progress the system will show that the candidate has completed the EDT.

Only the ADI can stamp the logbook the the lesson outcome has been delivered. The sponsor can write in the logbook on specific pages noting when practice has taken place. They can also use these pages to ask questions of the ADI

MascotDec85

Here is a PDF of how the logbook will look

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/ADI/EDT/EDT_Learner_Logbook.pdf

DrivingTestTips: Brian

Faith+1 wrote: »

But does the learner have to show prove of this on test day?

No!
Only your logbook will be required on the day of your test. This will show your 12 mandatory lessons are signed.

Faith+1

MascotDec85 wrote: »

Here is a PDF of how the logbook will look

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/ADI/EDT/EDT_Learner_Logbook.pdf

Ok, but why do the RSA state they have to complete 36 hours of supervised driving when in fact they don't have to?? Also couldn't somebody get a friend to lie for them stating they took 36 hours of practice with them?

MascotDec85

Faith+1 wrote: »

Ok, but why do the RSA state they have to complete 36 hours of supervised driving when in fact they don't have to?? Also couldn't somebody get a friend to lie for them stating they took 36 hours of practice with them?

The RSA have said that the candidate should try to get around 3 - 4 hrs practice between each EDT Lesson. This practice would be supervised by The Sponsor. An ADI could also take the role as Sponsor.

Yes, the pupil could get someone to lie for them. This would become apparent to any good ADI that the candidate wasn't fulfilling the outcomes of each EDT lesson and record it as such in the logbook. The pupil may well then go on and fail the driving test as they aren't getting any decent practice and could very well end up failing the test. Therefore, only fooling themselves

Faith+1

MascotDec85 wrote: »

The RSA have said that the candidate should try to get around 3 - 4 hrs practice between each EDT Lesson. This practice would be supervised by The Sponsor. An ADI could also take the role as Sponsor.

Yes, the pupil could get someone to lie for them. This would become apparent to any good ADI that the candidate wasn't fulfilling the outcomes of each EDT lesson and record it as such in the logbook. The pupil may well then go on and fail the driving test as they aren't getting any decent practice and could very well end up failing the test. Therefore, only fooling themselves

Thanks for the heads up. Believe me if people can lie about supervised driving they will. This is Ireland after all.

DrivingTestTips: Brian

Think about how people are learning without the EDT.

Then add 12 mandatory lesson to that; that is the new system.

MascotDec85

Faith+1 wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up. Believe me if people can lie about supervised driving they will. This is Ireland after all.

It'll stick out as a sore thumb. I give pupils "homework" after most if not all lessons.

"Did you study that?"

"Yes"


Hmmmm, ok :rolleyes::D

brian076

DrivingTestTips: Brian wrote: »

Think about how people are learning without the EDT.

Then add 12 mandatory lesson to that; that is the new system.

You know that and so do I, but the general puplic don't, and despite all the great promises by the RSA that the everyone would know that the 12 EDTs are not the sum total of lessons required to get a pupil to test standard, they've made no attempt to bring this to the puplics attention. This is clearly evident by the TV and newspaper reports, together with comments by the consumer association, and even the RSA itself saying that non one is obliged to take more than 12 lessons.

We know that's the case, but ADIs are going to be in the firing line from pupils when they discover that a lesson on "Driving Calmly" isn't really going to count as a pre test lesson.

As someone at the meeting I attended said "I don't trust the RSA", meaning he didn't trust them to do the right thing, and I have to fully agree with him. They've proved over the years to be only good at one thing, and that's incompetence. Not sure they'll be able to rely on SGS to sort out their mess this time.

Faith+1

MascotDec85 wrote: »

It'll stick out as a sore thumb. I give pupils "homework" after most if not all lessons.

"Did you study that?"

"Yes"


Hmmmm, ok :rolleyes::D

Lol!! You should of given them 100 lines "I will always complete my homework the teacher gives me":)

Robxxx7

MascotDec85 wrote: »

Personally I think that the attitude of some ADI's at the EDT role-out meeting I attended was a bit, dare I say, stuck in the 1980's.

Time moves on, changes are being implemented for the general good. The aim here, as I've said many times is to change the attitude to learning to drive in this country which has existed for decades. It will take time, people directly affected as the come in will moan and moan. Kids in their early teens will know no different and get on with it.

I was talking to some fellow ADI's at the meeting and questioned that attitude of other ADI's who seemed to have a bee in their bonnet about the EDT. At the end of the day we are professionals who should embrace the changes for what they are, a step in the right direction.

What message does it send out to the public when people who "represent" ADI's come out and condemn it. They don't represent me

Unless you are 1 of their 40 members then they don't represent you .. they only represent just 2% of the ADI's and as such are about as useful as a chocolate fireguard and as pointless


Agree with you 100%, also need the Gardai to change their attitude and start prosecuting those who break the laws (eg driving around unaccompanied etc) unless this happens then none of this will be worth a toss .... if its not enforced by the enforcement agency ... then it will be pointless ..people will still drive around on their own and won't even bother going for a test, so why bother doing the EDT.

DrivingTestTips: Brian

The EDT will give the ADI a chance to advise the learner driver on what and where they are wrong and give advice/feedback on what they should practice.
This is good for the learner, Sponsor and Road Safety.

The EDT will give 12 hours work for each new learner the ADI takes on.

All good?

DrivingTestTips: Brian

brian076 wrote: »

You know that and so do I, but the general puplic don't, and despite all the great promises by the RSA that the everyone would know that the 12 EDTs are not the sum total of lessons required to get a pupil to test standard, they've made no attempt to bring this to the puplics attention. This is clearly evident by the TV and newspaper reports, together with comments by the consumer association, and even the RSA itself saying that non one is obliged to take more than 12 lessons.

We know that's the case, but ADIs are going to be in the firing line from pupils when they discover that a lesson on "Driving Calmly" isn't really going to count as a pre test lesson.

I agree Brian the learners will get a bit of a shock.

As someone at the meeting I attended said "I don't trust the RSA", meaning he didn't trust them to do the right thing, and I have to fully agree with him. They've proved over the years to be only good at one thing, and that's incompetence. Not sure they'll be able to rely on SGS to sort out their mess this time.

I don't know about this, Brian......
Only for the RSA:

• I could not have ever seen a Register of driving instructors been created.
• I could not see a governing body for driving instructors.
• I could not see the relationship between the testers and driving instructors improve. (Which I think still needs work. ).
• And then the Mandatory Driving Lessons. NEW learners permit holders (from the 4th of April) must take lessons or they are not allowed to sit the test. (This is the biggest move for the industry ever).

In relation to SGS - I think they (or anyone else) should never have been brought in to shorten the waiting list. Driving instruction as an industry, was better off when it was a steady flow of work.

brian076

DrivingTestTips: Brian wrote: »

I don't know about this, Brian......
Only for the RSA:

• I could not have ever seen a Register of driving instructors been created.
• I could not see a governing body for driving instructors.
• I could not see the relationship between the testers and driving instructors improve. (Which I think still needs work. ).
• And then the Mandatory Driving Lessons. NEW learners permit holders (from the 4th of April) must take lessons or they are not allowed to sit the test. (This is the biggest move for the industry ever).

In relation to SGS - I think they (or anyone else) should never have been brought in to shorten the waiting list. Driving instruction as an industry, was better off when it was a steady flow of work.

The introduction of ADI's was certainly a positive move, but even this was a bit of a mess, with extensions to deadlines given for completing each stage, on a number of occasions.
An ADI in my locality who passed his stage 3 in 2007, still hadn't been called for his check test up to last month. He had to contact them himself to get a test, so that he could renew his permit.

My permit is due on Saturday, and I still haven't received a renewal notice, I had to call them this week and was told there's a backlog in getting them posted.

Perhaps it was better when work was steadier, but given where you live, I'm sure you remember a time when the waiting list in Naas was 72 weeks, and not much better in other areas.

The RSA have never been able to tackle the inefficiencies regarding driving testing, and even today they're still trying to catch up on time lost during the snow by paying the testers overtime. (RSA testers do 35 tests per week, compared to 47 by SGS testers when they were operating)

DrivingTestTips: Brian

All valid points Brian.

Personally I would rather stand with the RSA then fight against them.
I have listened to ADIs for the last 18 months say "i have no work".

I think the positives out-way the negatives.

With saying that, all your points are valid.

MascotDec85

DrivingTestTips: Brian wrote: »

All valid points Brian.

Personally I would rather stand with the RSA then fight against them.
I have listened to ADIs for the last 18 months say "i have no work".

I think the positives out-way the negatives.

With saying that, all your points are valid.

There is work out there. It's all about being good at what you do and putting your name out there properly. I'm 7 months in business and I'm getting busier week after week

brian076

MascotDec85 wrote: »

There is work out there. It's all about being good at what you do and putting your name out there properly. I'm 7 months in business and I'm getting busier week after week

I agree, I think some ADI's don't bother to push themselves, or aren't prepared to travel that bit further from their area to do lessons. Fair play if you're doing well after only 7 months, and I know from speaking to some other instructors in my area that we're all getting 30-40 lessons each per week, so there's plenty of work out there.

MascotDec85

brian076 wrote: »

I agree, I think some ADI's don't bother to push themselves, or aren't prepared to travel that bit further from their area to do lessons. Fair play if you're doing well after only 7 months, and I know from speaking to some other instructors in my area that we're all getting 30-40 lessons each per week, so there's plenty of work out there.

I'd agree with that 100%

DrivingTestTips: Brian

MascotDec85 wrote: »

There is work out there. It's all about being good at what you do and putting your name out there properly. I'm 7 months in business and I'm getting busier week after week

With a comment like that you must be in Dublin.

Dublin is the busiest area in the country. I was with an ADI today who told me next week is quite (she has 15 lessons).
I know instructors around the country who are finding it hard to get 15 lessons a month.

@ Brian, you must be in Dublin also.

It is a little better, but still very bad for most!

MascotDec85

DrivingTestTips: Brian wrote: »

With a comment like that you must be in Dublin.

Dublin is the busiest area in the country. I was with an ADI today who told me next week is quite (she has 15 lessons).
I know instructors around the country who are finding it hard to get 15 lessons a month.

@ Brian, you must be in Dublin also.

It is a little better, but still very bad for most!

I'm in Meath

DrivingTestTips: Brian

MascotDec85 wrote: »

I'm in Meath

Well then you are very lucky to get those hours.

MascotDec85

DrivingTestTips: Brian wrote: »

Well then you are very lucky to get those hours.

I know that and I work extremely hard to get them Brian

DrivingTestTips: Brian

MascotDec85 wrote: »

I know that and I work extremely hard to get them Brian

(
****I removed this comment because of charter*****
).

MascotDec85

DrivingTestTips: Brian wrote: »

Quote edited out of fairness

Yeah, I believe they are fair