Do you think third level education is a right?

steddyeddy

Recently a few of my friends who come from modest backgrounds have been doubting wheter they will be able to complete college as they are finding it hard to support themselves, I think this is a shame as they are very intelligent hard working people and the fact is a lot of less intelligent and less dilligent people are still in college do to being lucky enough to have parental funding.

My question is do you think college education is a right or something which should only be undertaken by those who can afford it?

Oranage2

Tell you friends to get part time jobs, or else work full time and save! simples...

CommuterIE

steddyeddy wrote: »

Recently a few of my friends who come from modest backgrounds have been doubting wheter they will be able to complete college as they are finding it hard to support themselves, I think this is a shame as they are very intelligent hard working people and the fact is a lot of less intelligent and less dilligent people are still in college do to being lucky enough to have parental funding.

My question is do you think college education is a right or something which should only be undertaken by those who can afford it?

Poll seems overly contrived...

steddyeddy

Oranage2 wrote: »

Tell you friends to get part time jobs, or else work full time and save! simples...

Of course they have been looking for part time jobs but no offense but you may have noticed were in a period of recession at the moment

steddyeddy

CommuterIE wrote: »

Poll seems overly contrived...

Im well aware that good intentions aside of the problem of funding is huge

Oranage2

steddyeddy wrote: »

Of course they have been looking for part time jobs but no offense but you may have noticed were in a period of recession at the moment

Truth of the matter is not everybody goes to college so why should they pay for someone that did?

Also you're only in college for 4 years so why should you have to pay for other people to go to college for the rest of your life?

Poor Craythur

It's not a right, but I still find the options in that poll unsatisfactory so I didn't vote.

I believe university should admit an academic elite, not a monetary elite, so no, it's not a right.

freeze4real

In my humble opinion, if you can afford it do it.

There are loads of people getting the grants and doing nothing in college just wasting tax payers money.

Let them pay for themselves depending on the degree they get they should get some money back.

Compared to what non national are paying those paying the collge fees are paying nothing.

Those who have lives in Ireland for up to 5 years without an Irish passport will pay up to €5000 depending on his/her course.

While a foreigner e.g someone from asia pays €11000 - €15000. I don't know why?

I've slightly gone off topic.

But if you can afford it yes pay for yourself first then get some of your money back.

steddyeddy

Oranage2 wrote: »

Truth of the matter is not everybody goes to college so why should they pay for someone that did?

Also you're only in college for 4 years so why should you have to pay for other people to go to college for the rest of your life?

So that your children, family, friends and descendents have access to what many people see as a right. That your contributing to a fairer more educated society!

pow wow

Neither. I don't think it's a right but I also don't think being able to afford it is sufficient reason to be able to go. Capability and benefit should factor far more than they do.

steddyeddy

Poor Craythur wrote: »

It's not a right, but I still find the options in that poll unsatisfactory so I didn't vote.

I believe university should admit an academic elite, not a monetary elite, so no, it's not a right.

I agree with you one hundred per cent, ill ask the mods to change the poll if possible!

galwayrush

I would hate to see a situation where some thicker kids from wealthy backgrounds can take up places in college instead of some more intelligent kids whose parents can't afford to send theirs to college.

Poor Craythur

steddyeddy wrote: »

I agree with you one hundred per cent, ill ask the mods to change the poll if possible!

Cool, I shall then vote!

seithon

I don't object to the idea of paying for college, however I would have a problem paying for college at its current levels of quality in this country.

pow wow

Poor Craythur wrote: »

Cool, I shall then vote!

Me too!

Overheal

same problem as in other thread: your credit market blows. Therefore making it needlessly hard to take out affordable student loans through which you can finance your education, focus on graduating and finding work to then start making back payments which would start kicking in after your graduation.

If you can't afford it you can/should be able to take out a loan. Its then up to you to decide carefully if you can take that risk, graduate, and find a job that will pay enough that you wont be paying back student loans for the next 30 years.

But should someone just be handed a third level education? I don't think so. It's not exactly equivalent to the rounded and practical-use education they get/can get out of 2nd level. Third Degree is very focused and specific. Taxpayers shouldn't fart away on every teenager who gets a notion to try something only to have them realise it's not for them halfway and the whole thing becomes a waste of money. The student needs to have a stake in their own education to ensure they think it through and will have the proper responsibility.

Kevin Duffy

To whom would you deny the right to third level education?

I don't think money should be the casting vote on whether you go to uni (as in 're-introduce fees then they'll take it seriously'!), I think academic standards should. If you just have fees as a barrier you still have rich wasters and poor students who should go but can't. And it does nothing about the standards either.

PeterIanStaker

Education is a right not a privilege. Everyone should have the opportunity to avail of the highest level of education that they want to.

If people get the points, then they should apply to a course that would suit them.

4 Ross O Carroll Kelly types have so far clicked the "no". Sad really. :rolleyes:

My name is URL

I think it should be free for everyone provided that they intend on contributing to the country after graduating

melekalikimaka

if people want to go they can save and go, its no means a right to third level education, its an option people undertake for their own benefits, madness to even suggest its a right, self entitlement has gone off the wall in this country last few years

PK2008

Third level education is very overrated

PeterIanStaker

My name is URL wrote: »

I think it should be free for everyone provided that they intend on contributing to the country after graduating

FF have fucked up Ireland so badly that many graduates have no choice but to emigrate if they want jobs.

Sofiztikated

This is the thing, not everyone HAS to go to college, and not everyone is fit for college.

If the college places are funded by those fit for pay for it, then the ones unable to pay for it, but more intelligent ones and more able to use the knowledge, lose out.

I do know of a couple of people, some in my family circle, that have started college a couple of times, and just end up pricking about, wasting their grant on ****e, until they eventually drop out, and start all over again. They have no will to further educate themselves, but keep going back to college, because that's what you are supposed to do.

Poor Craythur

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

Everyone should have the opportunity to avail of the highest level of education that they want to.

If they're able.

Poor Craythur

bluewolf wrote: »

I don't think money should be the casting vote on whether you go to uni (as in 're-introduce fees then they'll take it seriously'!), I think academic standards should. If you just have fees as a barrier you still have rich wasters and poor students who should go but can't. And it does nothing about the standards either.

This.

Sofiztikated wrote: »

This is the thing, not everyone HAS to go to college, and not everyone is fit for college.

If the college places are funded by those fit for pay for it, then the ones unable to pay for it, but more intelligent ones and more able to use the knowledge, lose out.

I do know of a couple of people, some in my family circle, that have started college a couple of times, and just end up pricking about, wasting their grant on ****e, until they eventually drop out, and start all over again. They have no will to further educate themselves, but keep going back to college, because that's what you are supposed to do.

And this.

smk89

Luckily I get the UK to pay my way so thats good, their loan system is also excellent only paying back the original amount with interest pegged at inflation rates. I would be a good alternative to the grants here.
As for college, too many people do bullsh1t courses: celtic studies, archeology, philiosophy and art history are examples. A cap on numbers would be a good idea. Or ask industry for the numbers they will require in 4 years and make that the cap.

Sofiztikated

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

Education is a right not a privilege. Everyone should have the opportunity to avail of the highest level of education that they want to.

If people get the points, then they should apply to a course that would suit them.

4 Ross O Carroll Kelly types have so far clicked the "no". Sad really. :rolleyes:

You have the right to go to college. Noone is stopping you.

But unfortunately, some things cost money. It's the way of the world, you want nice things, you work hard and pay for them. But you still have the right to have nice things.

Mike 1972

Yes to a point.

At the start of the 20th century Primary education was considered a right. In those days it was often possible to get what was considered a halfways reasonable job without any second level education.

By the middle of the 20th century this was no longer the case and the opportnity to pursue secondary education was now considered a right.

By the end of the 20th century third level education was becoming increacingly necessary in order to secure an anyways decent job.

On the other hand this doesnt mean that free third level education and full maintenance grants should be connsidered an automatic right regardless of a students means. It is only reasonable to expect those who benefit from a third level education to bear some of the cost (albeit perhaps in a deferred form through some sort of state sponsored loan system). But nobody should have to be leaving fulltime education with a level of debt comparable to a small mortgage.

steddyeddy

I originally meant to ask should everyone that is intelligent and dilligent enough to go to college be able to go to college iregardless of finance?

Poor Craythur

steddyeddy wrote: »

I originally meant to ask should everyone that is intelligent and dilligent enough to go to college be able to go to college iregardless of finance?

Yes, absolutely.

Mike 1972

Yes to a point.

At the start of the 20th century Primary education was considered a right. In those days it was often possible to get what was considered a halfways reasonable job without any second level education.

By the middle of the 20th century this was no longer the case and the opportnity to pursue secondary education was now considered a right.

By the end of the 20th century third level education was becoming increacingly necessary in order to secure an anyways decent job.

On the other hand this doesnt mean that free third level education and full maintenance grants should be connsidered an automatic right regardless of a students means. It is only reasonable to expect those who benefit from a third level education to bear some of the cost (albeit perhaps in a deferred form through some sort of state sponsored loan system). But nobody should have to be leaving fulltime education with a level of debt comparable to a small mortgage.

My name is URL wrote: »

I think it should be free for everyone provided that they intend on contributing to the country after graduating

But how does one prove an intention ?

joshrogan

The chances are if they're intelligent enough they'll be able to obtain a decent third level education.

My name is URL

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

FF have fucked up Ireland so badly that many graduates have no choice but to emigrate if they want jobs.

Graduating with a speciality in some area does not mean that you are negated from obtaining employment in alternative areas.

If someone is going into college with the intent of emigrating after they graduate then they don't deserve any subsidised education. There should be a stipulation on students availing of subsidised education which requires them to stay in Ireland as long as they are employable here.

For every one person who decides that they don't fancy living in Ireland there is another who has missed out on a third level education.. who may indeed be willing to work here afterwards.

dsmythy

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

To whom would you deny the right to third level education?

The not so bright.

Agricola

I think everyone should have the opportunity to avail of 3rd level education, ability to afford fees shouldnt be a barrier.
I agree with a previous poster who said something has to be done about the grants system funding wasters though. I received a grant for 4 years of college myself but came out with a 1:1 at the end of it. The amount of people I met, specifically in 1st year who just bummed around, never came to a lecture and basically took a year out to enjoy the college experience on the back of a grant, was a joke.
They just need to tighten up the system, maybe tie grant payments in with results.
The benefits for society of people of all backgrounds getting access to 3rd level far outweighs negative aspects like this though.

Dudess

Yes, but not an automatic one like primary or secondary - seeing as not everyone avails of, or has to avail of, third level. But anyone who wants to pursue a third level education should be given the support to do so.

Mike 1972

My name is URL wrote: »

If someone is going into college with the intent of emigrating after they graduate then they don't deserve any subsidised education. There should be a stipulation on students availing of subsidised education which requires them to stay in Ireland as long as they are employable here..

How would you enforce this ?

Are you planning on building a wall :eek:

pow wow

smk89 wrote: »

Luckily I get the UK to pay my way so thats good, their loan system is also excellent only paying back the original amount with interest pegged at inflation rates. I would be a good alternative to the grants here.

Good idea in terms of accessability, sucks when you're saddled with the £15k at the end of it though, while everyone you know at home in Ireland 'got the grant' :rolleyes:

PeterIanStaker

Sofiztikated wrote: »

You have the right to go to college. Noone is stopping you.

But unfortunately, some things cost money. It's the way of the world, you want nice things, you work hard and pay for them. But you still have the right to have nice things.

I've been to college, and I returned to it after losing a job, in order to improve my employability.

My last course was self - financed as I did not qualify for a grant or maintenance.

So now I'm doing a series of unpaid internships in order to build up enough experience to offer to future employers, which, thanks to the 30th Dáil, will not be in this country.

That's not a hard luck story, it's the way of the world.

My name is URL

Mike 1972 wrote: »

How would you enforce this ?

Are you planning on building a wall :eek:

It could be a legally binding agreement.. how is any other form of contract enforced?

Poor Craythur

pow wow wrote: »

Good idea in terms of accessability, sucks when you're saddled with the £15k at the end of it though, while everyone you know at home in Ireland 'got the grant' :rolleyes:

It's not that bad, a former British house-mate of mine was only paying back ~£70 stg per month. If fees are reintroduced, this is the way to do it.

smk89

pow wow wrote: »

Good idea in terms of accessability, sucks when you're saddled with the £15k at the end of it though, while everyone you know at home in Ireland 'got the grant' :rolleyes:

Cough... double that and a bit... cough.

Sofiztikated

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

FF have fucked up Ireland so badly that many graduates have no choice but to emigrate if they want jobs.

While yes, Ireland is in a bit of a ****hole at the moment, you don't need to automatically leave.

What are you studying? Maybe, just maybe it's not just someone elses fault, maybe you saw an overcrowded, but still well paid market, and said, "We'll, sure why not?" Diversify, get into something else, do some bloody work, and maybe we'd get out of this hole a bit quicker.

Edit: Just saw your last post. Sorry for your situation, but I still stand by my sentiments. Not everyone that goes to college, and actually graduates, needs to get on the first plane out.

pow wow

smk89 wrote: »

Cough... double that and a bit... cough.

Ah it was only £15k in my day (and still is as I haven't paid it off!). It's still £70 more than any grant-getters have to pay back!

I think it's a good system but Ireland can't afford the initial investment to run a scheme like it just now.

PeakOutput

Your options are too loaded

I do not believe it is a right but that dosn't mean that people who cannot afford it shouldn't be helped to get there if they want to and if they are capable of it

at the moment the current system is a joke no matter what your thoughts of entitlement are

PeterIanStaker

My name is URL wrote: »

Graduating with a speciality in some area does not mean that you are negated from obtaining employment in alternative areas.

I'm well aware of that. My area of expertise is quite broad, but the jobs here are still thin on the ground. You think I haven't been looking?

My name is URL wrote: »

If someone is going into college with the intent of emigrating after they graduate then they don't deserve any subsidised education. There should be a stipulation on students availing of subsidised education which requires them to stay in Ireland as long as they are employable here.

I don't want to emigrate, and as for stipulating that graduates stay here if they are employable, then it is up to the Government to create these jobs, or create economic conditions conducive to job creation, instead of doing what they've been doing for the last 14 years and steering the State into a black hole through a combination of stupidity, corruption and greed.

My name is URL wrote: »

For every one person who decides that they don't fancy living in Ireland there is another who has missed out on a third level education.. who may indeed be willing to work here afterwards.

If there are jobs to be got. Big "if".

Poor Craythur

pow wow wrote: »

I think it's a good system but Ireland can't afford the initial investment to run a scheme like it just now.

Yeah, that's true.

steddyeddy

Poll options changed thanks to micky dolenz!

Mike 1972

My name is URL wrote: »

It could be a legally binding agreement.. how is any other form of contract enforced?

Possibly with great difficulty if the subject skips the country and never comes back.

Micky Dolenz

Poll Edited.