Improving stamina/lactic threshold?

Doolee

Rowing....

In laymans terms, when I'm rowing, I want to be able to delay the onset of pain, and when the pain does arrive, I want to be able to fight through it for longer!

In 'sporty lingo terms" (at least I think this is right!), I want to increase my lactic (= pain?) threshold and thus my stamina so I can row faster for longer with less pain.

The last and best 1,500 metre row I did was in 5.15mins and I want to do better than that. So I usually do a maintenance row of 2,000m which takes about 10mins. Today I did 10,000m in 50mins, which was my first time and I didnt push it and felt ok after it. Did a few weights and stuff so I guess I'm fitter than I think. But I consciously kept a slower steady pace than usual as it was the first time Id rowed 10,000 and didnt think I could make it to be honest.

Basically, should I keep rowing long distances as slower steady paces to improve my lactic threshold (someone said this would help) and also my diet. I dont eat many complex carbs so this may hinder my lactic threshold as I've noticed after a cheat day or bad day of my usual clean eating I'm actually better in the gym! Makes sense of course.

So, any ideas of exactly what you are supposed to do to improve stamina and lactic release.
Thanks everyone.

Hanley

What distance(s) are you specifically looking to improve?

Doolee

Hanley wrote: »

What distance(s) are you specifically looking to improve?

Hi Hanley,

Only 1,500m. But I usually try pace myself until about the last 300, then I got he'll for leather! I want better stamina so I can pump it from maybe the last 500, and get a better time. Is doin long rows the way to go for improving lactate levels???

shinsplints

Lactate threshold(LT)is the pace beyond which large amounts of lactic acid begin to accumulate in the blood and muscle efficiency falls off with fatigue.Your muscles produce more lactate than can be cleared.Rowing hard produces more lactic acid,as you have moved into O2 debt.LT IS PROBABLY ABOUT 85-90%OF MAX HEART RATE.If 5.15mins represents your limit for now for 1500m,mix up your training with shorter reps of say 300m or 500m at a faster pace with 1min breaks, and longer tempo rows at 5000m and 10000m at slightly below LT pace on different days of course.
So, aim for 1.35-1.40 500m reps x 4 with 1min recovery,and 21mins for 5k and 45mins for 10k.Row long and slow and you'll stay slow.
Tempo rows will improve your performance at any distance,and this is coming from a running background.

Hanley

shinsplints wrote: »

Lactate threshold(LT)is the pace beyond which large amounts of lactic acid begin to accumulate in the blood and muscle efficiency falls off with fatigue.Your muscles produce more lactate than can be cleared.Rowing hard produces more lactic acid,as you have moved into O2 debt.LT IS PROBABLY ABOUT 85-90%OF MAX HEART RATE.If 5.15mins represents your limit for now for 1500m,mix up your training with shorter reps of say 300m or 500m at a faster pace with 1min breaks, and longer tempo rows at 5000m and 10000m at slightly below LT pace on different days of course.
So, aim for 1.35-1.40 500m reps x 4 with 1min recovery,and 21mins for 5k and 45mins for 10k.Row long and slow and you'll stay slow.
Tempo rows will improve your performance at any distance,and this is coming from a running background.

This is a pretty good answer...

RE: the bolded part, as soon as you hit 85-90% of MHR you're at your lactate threshold? Or you begin to edge towards it, and if so, how long before you get there?

shinsplints

To be honest,I know absolutely nothing about rowing.Just applied knowledge of LT picked up from athletics background.I suspect same logic applies over different sporting disciplines,running, cycling ,rowing etc..and if for no other reason it would be interesting to test it.I imagine improving rowing technique and core strength would lead to an improvement also.

flywheel

Heart Rates and Thresholds are so personal to the individual, suggesting a HR% is always a challenge... the other factor is results will vary for different sports it's not a one size fits all (activities)

Lactate Threshold is used a lot in Cycling (to determine appropriate Training Zones) and Spinning (to better estimate Max Heart Rate and Energy Zones) ... For Cycling (using a lab test with a power meter, heart rate and blood/gas analysis)... for Spinning we use Heart Rate and RPE (and power if available). So in a Field Test with an Average HR is determined during a sustained RPE of 7 'Hard' - Deep forceful breathing (but sustainable).

To the OP have a read of some of these articles on Lactate Threshold (and what the difference between Lactate Acid and Lactate is...) and how once determined you can implement it into your sorts(s) training

Lactate Theshold Training
Len Kravitz, Ph.D. and Lance Dalleck, Ph.D.
http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/lactatethreshold.html

Demystifying Lactate Threshold
Joe Friel and Doug Bush
http://www.endurancefactor.com/Articles/LT_article.htm

To the OP (if you have no medical issues), you should be able to have a Lactate Threshold field test conducted with a Concept II rower. (If you have a PM4 and a Suunto/Garmin HR belt they can hook up and you can view heart rate and the Watt output over the testing period)... otherwise you can use a Heart Rate monitor with an average function (and display watts on the Concept's PM display if available). You need to be able to gauge your Rate of Perceived Exertion (and apply it to a scale) and the person conducting the test needs experience to take measurements and determine your RPE

Have a read of this article (which uses running as an example in a Field Test)
http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/LTassessUNM.html

cc87

flywheel wrote: »

So in a Field Test with an Average HR is determined during a sustained RPE of 7 'Hard' - Deep forceful breathing (but sustainable).

Out of curiosity, what RPE scale is that? Ive only used the borg one myself.

To the OP, if you want to determine your LT, try slowly increasing you pace until you start to feel "the burn" in your muscles then hold that pace.

While the advice being given is good, you dont want to start to overthink your training too much.

I would stick with the advice shinsplints gave, although his estimate of 85-90% of HR max seems quite high, you should be able to decide on a pace yourself. One that is high enough to produce the required effect but not too high than you burn out after 2 or 3 intervals

flywheel

cc87 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what RPE scale is that? Ive only used the borg one myself.

hi, 6 - 20 can be challenging for people to pick a number... so a scale of 1 - 10 can also be used... Borg Created a Category Ratio Scale (CR10 Scale) for this reason

in the context of a Indoor Cycling Lactate Threshold Field test here is the 1 - 10 RPE Scale used (with some physiological markers to help identify the perceived intensity). The goal is to get Heart Rate parameters for the individual (rather than relying on a generic Max HR calculation).
[Ref: Conference Session outline for more details]

1 – 10 RPE Scale

0 Rest
1 Extremely Easy; Restful breathing, can sing
2 Very Easy; Can talk in complete sentences
3 Easy
4 Moderate; Talking first becomes broken
5 Somewhat Hard; Heavier breathing begins
6 Moderately Hard; Deep breaths, talking is avoided
7 (LT) Hard; Deep forceful breathing (but sustainable)
8 Very Hard; Labored, cannot talk
9 Very, very hard; Very labored, breathless
10 Extremely Hard – max!; Gasping for air

Also check out this article with some good descriptions to help identify the feeling of intensity as the rate of exertion builds:
Analogue between "Rate of Perceived Exertion" (RPE) Scale & % MHR

Doolee

shinsplints wrote: »

Lactate threshold(LT)is the pace beyond which large amounts of lactic acid begin to accumulate in the blood and muscle efficiency falls off with fatigue.Your muscles produce more lactate than can be cleared.Rowing hard produces more lactic acid,as you have moved into O2 debt.LT IS PROBABLY ABOUT 85-90%OF MAX HEART RATE.If 5.15mins represents your limit for now for 1500m,mix up your training with shorter reps of say 300m or 500m at a faster pace with 1min breaks, and longer tempo rows at 5000m and 10000m at slightly below LT pace on different days of course.
So, aim for 1.35-1.40 500m reps x 4 with 1min recovery,and 21mins for 5k and 45mins for 10k.Row long and slow and you'll stay slow.
Tempo rows will improve your performance at any distance,and this is coming from a running background.

These replies are great. Thanks Shinsplints. Will give your advice a go.

I'm figuring out how lately how form totally effects your speed also. Its tempting to feck it up when you start getting tired and I'm realising how vital it is to use your legs the entire time, stretching in and out to the front and back of the row alllllll the time. I've been finding how when you just throw your reach forward and not really bend your legs totally that the power behind is just crap really...esp when your getting knackered!

I've got to practice the explosive power behind the snatch today and I'm going to try maintain it for the 6 mins row I'm going to do. Will build it from there.

flywheel wrote: »

Heart Rates and Thresholds are so personal to the individual, suggesting a HR% is always a challenge... the other factor is results will vary for different sports it's not a one size fits all (activities)

To the OP have a read of some of these articles on Lactate Threshold (and what the difference between Lactate Acid and Lactate is...) and how once determined you can implement it into your sorts(s) training

Lactate Theshold Training
Len Kravitz, Ph.D. and Lance Dalleck, Ph.D.
http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/lactatethreshold.html

Demystifying Lactate Threshold
Joe Friel and Doug Bush
http://www.endurancefactor.com/Articles/LT_article.htm

To the OP (if you have no medical issues), you should be able to have a Lactate Threshold field test conducted with a Concept II rower. (If you have a PM4 and a Suunto/Garmin HR belt they can hook up and you can view heart rate and the Watt output over the testing period)... otherwise you can use a Heart Rate monitor with an average function (and display watts on the Concept's PM display if available). You need to be able to gauge your Rate of Perceived Exertion (and apply it to a scale) and the person conducting the test needs experience to take measurements and determine your RPE

Have a read of this article (which uses running as an example in a Field Test)
http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/LTassessUNM.html

Thanks a mill for that. Dont think I'll be able to get the LT measured in that way but good to know you actually can do it scientifically.

cc87 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what RPE scale is that? Ive only used the borg one myself.

To the OP, if you want to determine your LT, try slowly increasing you pace until you start to feel "the burn" in your muscles then hold that pace.

While the advice being given is good, you dont want to start to overthink your training too much.

I would stick with the advice shinsplints gave, although his estimate of 85-90% of HR max seems quite high, you should be able to decide on a pace yourself. One that is high enough to produce the required effect but not too high than you burn out after 2 or 3 intervals

This is the thing...keeping going at your max for longer. Going to see how long I can maintain the burn this morning...god help me

Thanks everyone!