Media portrayals of transgenders: West vs East comparison.

Azure_sky

The media is a powerful, and potentially dangerous tool. Perhaps I'm a bit of a cynic but I find that most people are too lazy to think for themselves and allow others do it for them: Media, parents, politicians and clergy.

I've noticed that the main ire for gays seems to come from the clergy. Damn you to hell sodomite, and all that. I think for transsexuals it's a bit different though. The American media really demonises transgenders, surprisingly Ireland and the U.K. are not too bad in comparison (Crying game, Hallie form Corrie and Breakfast at Plutos).

Not so in America. South Parks portrayal of a transsexual as a dissociative, gender confused, physically unattractive, sexual predator who tries to fool Richard Dawkins into gay sex did little to help public misconceptions regarding transsexuals. In fact I've lost count as to how many times that South Park episode has been used as an attack by conservatives against the validity of gender dysphoria.

Family guy also gave a poor display. Louis is disgusted and Brian gets physically sick. The only character who really has any tolerance and empathy is Quagmire, a chronic womaniser.

It seems a bit different in Japan. There was an anime, Wandering son, about a young gender dysphoric "male" which was both educating and touching. Even Japanese anime and video games portrays transgenders as more physically pleasing than American animation and movies.

Case in point:

U.S.A







VS

Japan







As you can see Japans portrays of transgenders are infinitely more flattering on the eyes. Nor do they have the sociopathic traits and multiple personality disorder issues which Ms/Mr Garrison, Norman Bates and Jame Gumb exhibit. Why is this? Is there a correlation between religion?
USA is a pretty religious country for the most part, while the UK and Ireland are more like cultural Christians and Japan is an atheist country in all but name. Is it to do with sexual liberation? Japan is far more sexually liberated than America. Perhaps they are more comfortable with their bi curious inclinations. While Americans are happy to portray transsexuals as physically repulsive as possible to negate any sexual questioning. Just wondering what other people think.

liah

No commentary, and not exactly related to transgender specifically, just something related to the Japan bit: I read somewhere that they don't really label people as "straight," "gay," etc, just the sexual acts, if that makes sense. I think it's a pretty interesting concept. Like, people can do "gay sex acts" and "straight sex acts" but not have to label themselves as anything-- they just like those activities. I think it's tied into their language structure but I can't really remember the specifics.

It might explain some stuff about how they view transgenders, though, with some more digging. I think I might do some googling.

deirdre_dub

Just another point similar to the one Liah mentions above.

I believe that in Thailand, whenever you are introduced to someone, you never use gender pronouns with them until you have heard them use gender pronouns on themself!

In other words, you wouldn't refer to me in the masculine or the feminine until you had heard me refer to myself in the masculine or feminine.

I could be wrong about that, but it is something I remember hearing somewhere... :rolleyes: Can someone verify / deny?

ixoy

Japan isn't as sexually liberated as you might think - it'd be very rare to see a gay couple for example and there's often intense pressure to marry and provide the appearance of a model family unit. There would never be any outward condemnation but it wouldn't be something that many of the older generation would be comfortable (that's from reading up on Japan before the bf and I went there last year).

I also think it's a bit ridiculous to use "South Park" as a media representation of anything - it rips apart every single person to some degree or another (I, for example, take no offence at Mr. Garrison and Mr. Slave's relationship from earlier seasons).

Azure_sky

I never knew about the gender pronouns in Thailand and the theme of pan-sexualism in Japan-though I do know that bi-sexuality was wide spread among the Samurai class. Gay relations was for love and pleasure because one married soley for political reasons.

I think those things may have something to do with it alright. Language is a powerful tool. Orwell was onto something with 1984. But still Germany has very definite male and gender pronouns. I still think there's more to it, a combination of many things.

Azure_sky

ixoy wrote: »

Japan isn't as sexually liberated as you might think - it'd be very rare to see a gay couple for example and there's often intense pressure to marry and provide the appearance of a model family unit. There would never be any outward condemnation but it wouldn't be something that many of the older generation would be comfortable (that's from reading up on Japan before the bf and I went there last year).

It is true that Japan is a very collective and comformist country but it's very different from America because religion is not a factor, so they are somewhat more flexible. The average I.Q. is much higher too.

ixoy wrote: »

I also think it's a bit ridiculous to use "South Park" as a media representation of anything - it rips apart every single person to some degree or another (I, for example, take no offence at Mr. Garrison and Mr. Slave's relationship from earlier seasons).

I was waiting for someone to say this and I totally disagree with you. You would be surprised at the amount of people who get their politics from SP. It takes the piss out of homosexuality but ultimately it is supportive of gay rights and makes the argument that gays are born that way. Remember the episode when Stan tries to turn his dog straight? Not so with the Mr/Ms Garrison episode. It highlights transsexuals as mentally ill, confused and Mr Garrison transitions due to internalised homophobia. It also shows him suicidal because he changed his mind and wants to be a man again. It's a reductio ad absurdum argument against the validity of gender dysphoria. As for South Park taking the piss out of everyone, can you give me one example where they take the piss out of libertarians?( The political ideology which the creators of the show support.)

It's not just South Park though. Family Guy is more left wing than South Park and they give a less than flattering treatment of transgenders. Same with the other media I've cited in my O.P.

wonderfulname

Azure_sky wrote: »

Remember the episode when Stan tries to turn his dog straight?

Remember the episode where butters is "confused"?

I am sick and tired of everyone telling me I'm confused! I wasn't confused until people started telling me I was. I'm not confused... My name's Butters. I'm eight years old, blood type O, and I'm bi-curious. And even that's okay. Because if I'm bi-curious, and I'm somehow made from God, then I guess God must be a little bi-curious himself!

Love that quote, people taking South Park seriously is not a fault of the shows, its the fault of those watching it.

Now, can I redeem the west I wonder... Alexis Meade, Ugly Betty? Boys Don't Cry? Ma vie en rose? Belgian film I know, but it got a Golden Globe. Breakfast on Pluto? I've no recollection what that was like though...

Norman bates was not trans, he was psychologically screwed and thought he was his mother, big difference, plays to our love of all things Freud.

Wandering Son is a fantastic all right but it is sitting out there all alone, there is nothing to match it in terms of actually confronting the characters behind the roles, well, from what I can see anyway. Free to view here.

There's no point getting weighed down by the negatives of society, they are not within your control. Focus on the good stuffs.

SugarHigh

I don't think the wests view is as sinister as you are making it out to be. From what I've seen it just seems to trivialize the whole thing and make a joke of it. It's not really something that is common enough for most people to bother forming an opinion about.

deirdre_dub

SugarHigh wrote: »

I don't think the wests view is as sinister as you are making it out to be. From what I've seen it just seems to trivialize the whole thing and make a joke of it.

And how is that not sinister? Making a joke and trivialising us is at the root of the discrimination and other problems we have to fight.

It's not really something that is common enough for most people to bother forming an opinion about.

Which is why it is so very important that the places where an opinion is handed to most people is one that is respectful towards trans people, and certainly not one that trivialises or makes a joke out of us.

SugarHigh

As you can see Japans portrays of transgenders are infinitely more flattering on the eyes

The girl in the 3rd picture looks about 12 and according to google stars in a porn video game. I don't really see how this is a more positive view than the west.

Azure_sky

wonderfulname wrote: »

Remember the episode where butters is "confused"?

Yes. I also remember how in that episode it was an attack against repairitive therapy for homosexuals and ultimately a pro gay episode again, as opposed to the transphobic episodes.

wonderfulname wrote: »

Love that quote, people taking South Park seriously is not a fault of the shows, its the fault of those watching it.

By that logic Joseph Goebbels was not at fault for the wave of anti semitism in Nazi Germany.

wonderfulname wrote: »

Now, can I redeem the west I wonder... Alexis Meade, Ugly Betty? Boys Don't Cry? Ma vie en rose? Belgian film I know, but it got a Golden Globe. Breakfast on Pluto? I've no recollection what that was like though...

I mentioned in my OP that it's more about the USA vs the East rather than the west as a whole. Granted my thread title alluded to the former, and boys don't cry is American, but the post itself made the distinction between European and American portrayals of transsexuals in the media.

wonderfulname wrote: »

Norman bates was not trans, he was psychologically screwed and thought he was his mother, big difference, plays to our love of all things Freud.

Correct but it's from these cultural memes where people derive their misconceptions.

wonderfulname wrote: »

There's no point getting weighed down by the negatives of society, they are not within your control. Focus on the good stuffs.

I agree 100% but I'm still curious as to how the American media portrays trans as dangerous, insane and repulsive as opposed to the more flattering oriental portrayal.

SugarHigh wrote: »

The girl in the 3rd picture looks about 12 and according to google stars in a porn video game. I don't really see how this is a more positive view than the west.

It's hard to judge age in anime. (Super deformed style for example). I just googled transgendered anime characters and took pics at random.

SugarHigh

deirdre_dub wrote: »

And how is that not sinister? Making a joke and trivialising us is at the root of the discrimination and other problems we have to fight.
Which is why it is so very important that the places where an opinion is handed to most people is one that is respectful towards trans people, and certainly not one that trivialises or makes a joke out of us.

Most countries get made a joke out of on US television and it's not a big deal or something sinister. I think trans-gendered people come off a lot better than the French. I don't see too much harm in trivialising something, not everything has to be serious and heavy.

Azure_sky

deirdre_dub wrote: »

And how is that not sinister? Making a joke and trivialising us is at the root of the discrimination and other problems we have to fight.
Which is why it is so very important that the places where an opinion is handed to most people is one that is respectful towards trans people, and certainly not one that trivialises or makes a joke out of us.

Indeed. It never fails to amaze me how the people who have no issue with the cause of offense are the ones not affected by it. Here's a good example of how a well known transsexual was subjected to personal abuse by morons who get their politics from South Park. An excerpt:

"First there was Mrs. Garrison, perhaps the most unflattering portrayal of a transsexual person I’ve ever seen. Meant to be funny? I get it. Still, at the same time, the most unflattering portrayal of a transsexual person I’ve ever seen. This week it’s a serial killer who appears to cross dress in an “OMG GROSS!” sight gag, alongside sexually molesting an effigy of his mother. Unlike the minorities that the writers actually like, who get audience-winning soliloquies at the end of each episode, people in South Park exhibiting cross gendered behavior are relegated to the same tired shorthand of serial killer, punchline or prostitute that we see everywhere else."


http://www.calpernia.com/south-park-and-crossgendered-behavior-part-02/

SugarHigh

Azure_sky wrote: »

By that logic Joseph Goebbels was not at fault for the wave of anti semitism in Nazi Germany.

Come on there's not need to be so hyperbolic. Goebbels clearly had an agenda to turn people against the jews. Do you really think the creators of SP had the same agenda or were they just taking the piss?

Correct but it's from these cultural memes where people derive their misconceptions.

Yea this is probably true but I don't think this misconceptions are long lasting once they actually meet a Trans person. In the same way misconceptions about nationalities don't take long to dispel for the individual so I think you are overestimating their importance.

It's hard to judge age in anime. (Super deformed style for example). I just googled transgendered anime characters and took pics at random.

I googled the name in the URL and it's a school boy who dresses up as a school girl so boys will like him In the video game you can have sex with him. Is this really something we should be envious of?

Azure_sky

SugarHigh wrote: »

Most countries get made a joke out of on US television and it's not a big deal or something sinister. I think trans-gendered people come off a lot better than the French. I don't see too much harm in trivialising something, not everything has to be serious and heavy.

French people tend not to be discriminated, beaten and raped for being French.

SugarHigh

Azure_sky wrote: »

Indeed. It never fails to amaze me how the people who have no issue with the cause of offense are the ones not affected by it. Here's a good example of how a well known transsexual was subjected to personal abuse by morons who get their politics from South Park. An excerpt:

"First there was Mrs. Garrison, perhaps the most unflattering portrayal of a transsexual person I’ve ever seen. Meant to be funny? I get it. Still, at the same time, the most unflattering portrayal of a transsexual person I’ve ever seen. This week it’s a serial killer who appears to cross dress in an “OMG GROSS!” sight gag, alongside sexually molesting an effigy of his mother. Unlike the minorities that the writers actually like, who get audience-winning soliloquies at the end of each episode, people in South Park exhibiting cross gendered behavior are relegated to the same tired shorthand of serial killer, punchline or prostitute that we see everywhere else."


http://www.calpernia.com/south-park-and-crossgendered-behavior-part-02/

Couldn't ginger people make the same arguments? I'm sure loads of gingers got abuse because of the ginger episode.

Azure_sky

SugarHigh wrote: »

Come on there's not need to be so hyperbolic. Goebbels clearly had an agenda to turn people against the jews. Do you really think the creators of SP had the same agenda or were they just taking the piss?

An extreme analogy yes but it highlights the flaw in your argument. Demagogues do share responsibility for the actions of their followers. South Park creators are right wing libertarians. They went on record saying they hate liberals,so yes I think it's fair to say that they do have an agenda.

SugarHigh wrote: »

Yea this is probably true but I don't think this misconceptions are long lasting once they actually meet a Trans person. In the same way misconceptions about nationalities don't take long to dispel for the individual so I think you are overestimating their importance.

You should see the horrid comments people leave on the youtube channels of transsexuals who try to explain what being transsexual actually is. The comments often cite the South Park episode. Just read the Calpernia Adams link.

SugarHigh wrote: »

I googled the name in the URL and it's a school boy who dresses up as a school girl so boys will like him In the video game you can have sex with him. Is this really something we should be envious of?

Fair enough on that one. I was obviously was unaware of it and we all know the Japanese can be somewhat pervy but there's plenty of other non porn related trans characters in Japanese media who are portrayed far more positively than their U.S. counterparts.

Azure_sky

SugarHigh wrote: »

Couldn't ginger people make the same arguments? I'm sure loads of gingers got abuse because of the ginger episode.

Teased at school? Perhaps. At a significantly statistically higher risk for suicide, rape, discrimination, assualt and murder? No.

wonderfulname

Azure_sky wrote: »

By that logic Joseph Goebbels was not at fault for the wave of anti semitism in Nazi Germany.

I beg to differ, south park is a comedy, a television show taking the piss that manages to stay current by going too far, its absolutely ridiculous to compare
it to Nazi propaganda. Seriously, do you actually believe that is a valid point?

I mentioned in my OP that it's more about the USA vs the East rather than the west as a whole. Granted my thread title alluded to the former, and boys don't cry is American, but the post itself made the distinction between European and American portrayals of transsexuals in the media.

So what about the character of Alexis Meade?

Correct but it's from these cultural memes where people derive their misconceptions.

You're wrong, I have yet to meet anyone who views Norman Bates as trans, the tiresome psychoanalysis at the end of the film sees that everyone understands him.

I agree 100% but I'm still curious as to how the American media portrays trans as dangerous, insane and repulsive as opposed to the more flattering oriental portrayal.

How about when they don't?

I just googled transgendered anime characters and took pics at random.

That really harms your argument, if you don't know what roles the characters you are presenting to us fill then how can you claim that they are something to aspire to? The character in question is described as a "trap", which I find pretty sickening, however I would imagine her origins are western, seems to be fan art.

Interesting blog post here.

LenaClaire

I think if I was to point to a difference to East and West I would use the example of Thai Lady-Boys rather than Japan just because it leaves out a lot of the kink issues and tends to deal more with gender identification rather than sexual preference.

Azure_sky

wonderfulname wrote: »

I beg to differ, south park is a comedy, a television show taking the piss that manages to stay current by going too far, its absolutely ridiculous to compare
it to Nazi propaganda. Seriously, do you actually believe that is a valid point?

Yes. Totally.

wonderfulname wrote: »

So what about the character of Alexis Meade?

Unfamiliar with that one I'm afraid.

wonderfulname wrote: »

You're wrong, I have yet to meet anyone who views Norman Bates as trans, the tiresome psychoanalysis at the end of the film sees that everyone understands him.

Norman Bates has dissociative identity disorder, as does Mr Garrison who South Park use as an attack against the validity of gender dysphoria. South Parks transphobic episodes leads to more misconceptions about transgenders and thus leads to more transphobia. I think you give the average person too much intellectual credit.

wonderfulname wrote: »

How about when they don't?

The most popular portrayals, at least in animated sit coms, are negative. Give me one example of a positive portrayal of a transgender character in any American animated sit com. I could give scores of positive gay characters in these shows however.

wonderfulname wrote: »

That really harms your argument, if you don't know what roles the characters you are presenting to us fill then how can you claim that they are something to aspire to? The character in question is described as a "trap", which I find pretty sickening, however I would imagine her origins are western, seems to be fan art.

Interesting blog post here.

I never said they are something to aspire to but I think being an object of lust is the lesser of two evils when compared to an object of physical repulsion and psychopathy. I do know that one of the characters, Poison, is a proper transsexual as opposed to a crossdresser. The term "trap" is used interchanabley to refer to transsexuals and crossdressers, similiar to the term "tranny".

Azure_sky

jujibee wrote: »

I think if I was to point to a difference to East and West I would use the example of Thai Lady-Boys rather than Japan just because it leaves out a lot of the kink issues and tends to deal more with gender identification rather than sexual preference.

Yes, that's a good point. I noticed a lot of Hindu Deities are gender Queer too.

SugarHigh

Azure_sky wrote: »

An extreme analogy yes but it highlights the flaw in your argument. Demagogues do share responsibility for the actions of their followers. South Park creators are right wing libertarians. They went on record saying they hate liberals,so yes I think it's fair to say that they do have an agenda.

You're taking it far too seriously.

You should see the horrid comments people leave on the youtube channels of transsexuals who try to explain what being transsexual actually is. The comments often cite the South Park episode. Just read the Calpernia Adams link.

Youtube comments aren't a good indication of anything, it's just trolls trolling trolls. How do you think a ginger person would be treated if they were complaining about the ginger episode?

Fair enough on that one. I was obviously was unaware of it and we all know the Japanese can be somewhat pervy but there's plenty of other non porn related trans characters in Japanese media who are portrayed far more positively than their U.S. counterparts.

So many of them you decided instead of linking to them you would just pull a random image from google image search.

I'm sure there are positive Trans character in Japanese media but they have just as many that simply sex objects. You have tried to select the best ones from japan(And failed miserably) and then compare them to the worst American ones you can find.

You ended up comparing a porno to south park and then asking why the porno version was more flattering. I'm sure there are flattering Trans in American porn and I'm sure there are decent representations of Trans people in normal US media. Transamerica seemed to be ok from what I remember.

SugarHigh

Azure_sky wrote: »

The most popular portrayals, at least in animated sit coms, are negative. Give me one example of a positive portrayal of a transgender character in any American animated sit com. I could give scores of positive gay characters in these shows however.

The reason why there are more positive gay characters is because there are simply more gay people in the world. trans people are pretty rare.

I never said they are something to aspire to but I think being an object of lust is the lesser of two evils when compared to an object of physical repulsion and psychopathy. I do know that one of the characters, Poison, is a proper transsexual as opposed to a crossdresser. The term "trap" is used interchanabley to refer to transsexuals and crossdressers, similiar to the term "tranny".

So what about American Trans porn?

I'm not sure but wasn't it you who was complaining about how Trans people are viewed as sex objects?

Trap is definitely a negative word. It basically means posting a picture of a trans person and pretending it's a cis person. Then when everyone say's IWHI you show the cock and they all recoil.

wonderfulname

Azure_sky wrote: »

Yes. Totally.

No. Ridiculous.

Unfamiliar with that one I'm afraid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Meade Central character on a hit US show with a viewership of about 9million, and as far as I can recall nobody gave a crap.

The most popular portrayals, at least in animated sit coms, are negative. Give me one example of a positive portrayal of a transgender character in any American animated sit com. I could give scores of positive gay characters in these shows however.

So you pick the genre with the brain of an immature 14 year old boy? Limiting much I concede.

Azure_sky

SugarHigh wrote: »

You're taking it far too seriously.

Come back to me when you wake up with gender dysphoria.

SugarHigh wrote: »

Youtube comments aren't a good indication of anything, it's just trolls trolling trolls. How do you think a ginger person would be treated if they were complaining about the ginger episode?

Again there is a world of difference between being ginger and being transsexual. Also South park didn't demonise ginger people like they do with transsexuals.

SugarHigh wrote: »

So many of them you decided instead of linking to them you would just pull a random image from google image search.

Poison was the obvious one I was aware of. The rest were random, all the search results were far less physically repulsive than Ms Garrison etc. The fact that one of them was from a hentai video game is a point you keep on harping on about and ignore the wider picture.

SugarHigh wrote: »

I'm sure there are positive Trans character in Japanese media but they have just as many that simply sex objects. You have tried to select the best ones from japan(And failed miserably) and then compare them to the worst American ones you can find.

You missed my point entirely. Many may be sex objects but as I said before at least they are not portrayed as hideous and dissociative like their US counterparts. As I said before, the lesser of two evils.

SugarHigh wrote: »

You ended up comparing a porno to south park and then asking why the porno version was more flattering.

:rolleyes: As I said before I was unaware one was from a porno and my ultimate point still stands.

Many may be sex objects but as I said before at least they are not portrayed as hideous and dissociative like their US counterparts. As I said before, the lesser of two evils.

SugarHigh wrote: »

I'm sure there are flattering Trans in American porn and I'm sure there are decent representations of Trans people in normal US media. Transamerica seemed to be ok from what I remember.

The issue I had with Transamerica was how the protagonist was neurotically religious,(" I was given this condition to suffer like Jesus".) almost like an apology to Conservatives for being trans.

Azure_sky

SugarHigh wrote: »

The reason why there are more positive gay characters is because there are simply more gay people in the world. trans people are pretty rare.

Citation? It could be because trans rights are about thirty years behind gay rights and social tolerance, which would make my point regarding the different social commentary on homosexuality as opposed to transgenderism in the western media even stronger.

SugarHigh wrote: »

So what about American Trans porn?
I'm not sure but wasn't it you who was complaining about how Trans people are viewed as sex objects?

No, that was another transsexual member I believe. I have no issue with consensual porn. Free choice and all that. My own personal opinion is that once a transwoman gets the full sex change she may still be viewed as a sex object, albeit by straights rather than chasers,bi and pansexuals.

SugarHigh wrote: »

Trap is definitely a negative word. It basically means posting a picture of a trans person and pretending it's a cis person. Then when everyone say's IWHI you show the cock and they all recoil.

Yes, it is. Though some people obviously like being "trapped" judging by the popularity of trans porn.

Azure_sky

wonderfulname wrote: »

No. Ridiculous.

No, it ain't.

wonderfulname wrote: »

So you pick the genre with the brain of an immature 14 year old boy? Limiting much I concede.

You honestly think South Parks prime demographic is fourteen year old kids? Even if it were that is worse in a way, as it's at that age where people are most prone to indoctrination. Teenage boys are not generally known for their empathy either. Why do you think the Catholic church wanted to control the Irish school system for so long and get kids confirmed before adulthood?

SugarHigh

Azure_sky wrote: »

Again there is a world of difference between being ginger and being transsexual. Also South park didn't demonise ginger people like they do with transsexuals.

Wasn't the ginger episode about a ginger genocide?

Poison was the obvious one I was aware of. The rest were random, all the search results were far less physically repulsive than Ms Garrison etc. The fact that one of them was from a hentai video game is a point you keep on harping on about and ignore the wider picture.

The character in Ugly betty seems to be very attractive.

You missed my point entirely. Many may be sex objects but as I said before at least they are not portrayed as hideous and dissociative like their US counterparts. As I said before, the lesser of two evils.

Not all American Trans are portrayed as hideous and not all Japanese Trans are portrayed positively. Your just being selective.

:rolleyes: As I said before I was unaware one was from a porno and my ultimate point still stands.

Many may be sex objects but as I said before at least they are not portrayed as hideous and dissociative like their US counterparts. As I said before, the lesser of two evils.

It wasn't just a normal porn though was it? I don't think simulated sex with a school boy the lesser of 2 evils. You were trying to paint Japan as something to look up to.

The issue I had with Transamerica was how the protagonist was neurotically religious,(" I was given this condition to suffer like Jesus".) almost like an apology to Conservatives for being trans.

You read too much into things.

Azure_sky wrote: »

Citation? It could be because trans rights are about thirty years behind gay rights and social tolerance, which would make my point regarding the different social commentary on homosexuality as opposed to transgenderism in the western media even stronger.

You actually think I need a citation for the claim that gay people are more common than Trans people? Most people I know have never even had a conversation with a trans person.

No, that was another transsexual member I believe. I have no issue with consensual porn. Free choice and all that. My own personal opinion is that once a transwoman gets the full sex change she may still be viewed as a sex object, albeit by straights rather than chasers,bi and pansexuals.

OK fair enough if it wasn't you.

Yes, it is. Though some people obviously like being "trapped" judging by the popularity of trans porn.

Probably.

wonderfulname

Azure_sky wrote: »

You honestly think South Parks prime demographic is fourteen year old kids? Even if it were that is worse in a way, as it's at that age where people are most prone to indoctrination. Why do you think the Catholic church wanted to control the Irish school system for so long and get kids confirmed before adulthood?

I said it had the brain of a 14 year old child, not that the programming was aimed at 14year old children. Let me guess, your next point is hitler youth?

I should have listened to that bad feeling I had about partaking in this thread, you're doing a good job at ignoring anything that doesn't support your point though, kudos.

Azure_sky wrote: »

...at least they are not portrayed as hideous and dissociative like their US counterparts...

Hideous dissociative US counterpart... I'll just leave this here.

I'm going to stop posting here now, its a bit too circular, I'll wind up acting the prat.

SugarHigh

The Tran-sexual in "It's always sunny" wasn't exactly bad looking either.


Yes, I realise she was just being used for humour(tbf it is a comedy) but the Japanese shows also do that.

Azure_sky

SugarHigh wrote: »

Didn't the ginger episode about a ginger genocide?

Which ultimately showed up Cartmans bigotry. Calpernia Adams gets it spot on when she says:


Unlike the minorities that the writers actually like, who get audience-winning soliloquies at the end of each episode, people in South Park exhibiting cross gendered behavior are relegated to the same tired shorthand of serial killer, punchline or prostitute that we see everywhere else."

SugarHigh wrote: »

The character in Ugly betty seems to be very attractive.


Not all American Trans are portrayed as hideous and not all Japanese Trans are portrayed positively. Your just being selective.

I don't watch ugly Betty. I do however watch American sit coms. Bear in mind I was just posing some questions in my OP.

SugarHigh wrote: »

It wasn't just a normal porn though was it? I don't think simulated sex with a school boy the lesser of 2 evils. You were trying to paint Japan as something to look up to.

Once again I will reiterate I was unaware of that particular example. Obviously that example is sick. However in regards to regular porn I still say it is the lesser of two evils. I was just posing questions, not portraying Japan as something to look up to. I already said Japan has many issues with conformity, and yes some of them can be a bit pervy.

SugarHigh wrote: »

You read too much into things.

I have a healthy level of intuition. Did you read the link I gave from Calpernia Adams. Really, she has it spot on.

SugarHigh wrote: »

You actually think I need a citation for the claim that gay people are more common than Trans people? Most people I know have never even had a conversation with a trans person.

How do you know they were not transsexual? You probably have but they may have been in the closet or in denial.

SugarHigh wrote: »

OK fair enough if it wasn't you.

Okey dokey.

SugarHigh wrote: »

Probably.

Agreed.

SugarHigh

Ok, as a focused example SP isn't a good representation of trans people but I don't think overall they are represented as badly as you claim, they are simply not represented that often. As a member of the trans community you may get the impression it's bigger than it is but tbh it's not something I would encounter if it wasn't for this forum. Maybe you're right and I have encountered a couple without realising it.

hare05

Garrison is 'the' joke in south park. He's been used to portray the discriminatory view of every sexual and gender based trait anyone could exhibit. Transgenderism is just the most recent in a long line of over the top jokes. Homosexual slave owner bear, lesbian exhibiting masculine traits and 'scissoring', wanting to detransition (the one point where they really went over the top trivialising the procedure, but the same ep had dolphinoplasty, sooo... Meh)

No one takes Garrison seriously. Anyone that does is too stupid and must remove themselves from the gene pool immediately.

As for trans* characters worth mentioning in japanese shows... Yuki from Yubisaki Milk Tea (crossdresser), Aikawa from Prunus Girl (possibly crossdresser, never revealed. She just says "hi, I'm a boy" on the first day and then gets on with life), Shuu from Hourou Musuko (needs no intro), every main character in IS, Futaba-kun Change ends with a world where everyone changes gender at random times of stress, with the characters accepting themselves fully for who they are, Strange Mansion starts off bad as the trans person cites love for a man as her reason to change, but there's an underlying current throughout that she's just happier now, and in a loving relationship where she is accepted.

Those are a few. Mangafox ftw!

Also, I haven't read Claudine yet, but I hear its quite good, if not as happy go lucky as the stuff I usually read.

shoegirl

Japan is not a great example as it is legendary for the diversity of its sexual tastes and practices. It doesn't necessarily mean they have a more enlightened view of transgendered people.

For example almost all of these representations in the east are male to female, representations of f2m are non existent.

Representations of gender in any case are complex in most cultures and not always representational of a cultures levels of acceptance of difference. For example the case of Iran where m2f is made acceptable by surgical "correction" but male homosexuality is a crime punishable by death.

ztoical

Azure_sky wrote: »

It is true that Japan is a very collective and comformist country but it's very different from America because religion is not a factor, so they are somewhat more flexible. The average I.Q. is much higher too.

Average Higher IQ? Care to back that up with some links please. IQ testing is pointless for start, enrollment in third level education is seen as better judge and Japans numbers are on par with the rest of the 1st world. Saying one country has a higher IQ level implies there is some genetic difference which is not the case. There's no such thing as a "high-IQ society" and if Japan had such a high IQ level why are they ranked 94th out of 128 countries in gender equality?

The portrayals of transgenders and gay people in japanese comics and media is rooted in this picture of idealism. Yaoi material for example is written for women by women and portrays gay men in what amounts to nothing more then fairytale settings and don't focus on realistic gay issues at all. Frankly I find their portrayals pretty insulting as the characters tend to be very flat and not fleshed out as real people. Say what you want about Mr. Garrison at least I understand his motivations, he has flaws but damn if he doesn't go get what he wants and has at least evolved as a character. At least american portrayals are often based on real people or present people that are grounded in reality like in Dog Day Afternoon, Boy's Don't Cry and Transamerica - they might not be super cute and pretty like the Anime examples shown in the first post but they at least feel real, more relatable and have flaws.

Azure_sky

ztoical wrote: »

Average Higher IQ? Care to back that up with some links please.

Well about half of the US population believe the world is about 6,000 years old. Anyway, the reason for inequality is because they are a collectivist nation. It has it's advantages and disadvantages I guess. There's a lot of pressure to conform and that's probably why there are so many hikkikomori (acute social withdrawal) in Japan. I guess that's why anime and video games is so popular over there, it's an escape for them.

Azure_sky

hare05 wrote: »

Garrison is 'the' joke in south park. He's been used to portray the discriminatory view of every sexual and gender based trait anyone could exhibit. Transgenderism is just the most recent in a long line of over the top jokes. Homosexual slave owner bear, lesbian exhibiting masculine traits and 'scissoring', wanting to detransition (the one point where they really went over the top trivialising the procedure, but the same ep had dolphinoplasty, sooo... Meh)

No one takes Garrison seriously. Anyone that does is too stupid and must remove themselves from the gene pool immediately.

The thing is though that people do take it seriously (Check out the Calpernia Adams link I provided earlier in the thread.) and while Mr Garrison is certainly an interesting character and messed up character they used him as a vehicle to attack the validity of gender dysphoria. The dolphinoplasty and Kyle wanting to get a race change was part of the reductio ad absurdum argument against transsexuals. For the record I'm not anti South Park. I enjoy the show and sometimes it makes some valid social commentary but the writers were going into an area they didn't have a clue about with the transsexual episode and lets be honest, transsexuals are one of the most vulnerable minorities in the world right now, so I am pretty pissed off that they launched such a scathing attack against a highly vulnerable minority without even doing the slightest bit of research on it. They take the piss out of gay stereotypes but ultimately they argue it's something you're born with and it's dangerous to try to change a gay person into a straight person.

hare05 wrote: »

As for trans* characters worth mentioning in japanese shows... Yuki from Yubisaki Milk Tea (crossdresser), Aikawa from Prunus Girl (possibly crossdresser, never revealed. She just says "hi, I'm a boy" on the first day and then gets on with life), Shuu from Hourou Musuko (needs no intro), every main character in IS, Futaba-kun Change ends with a world where everyone changes gender at random times of stress, with the characters accepting themselves fully for who they are, Strange Mansion starts off bad as the trans person cites love for a man as her reason to change, but there's an underlying current throughout that she's just happier now, and in a loving relationship where she is accepted.

Those are a few. Mangafox ftw!

Also, I haven't read Claudine yet, but I hear its quite good, if not as happy go lucky as the stuff I usually read.

I actually don't watch much anime apart the more celebrated stuff from the nineties, I really need to get into some of the new stuff, so thanks for the recommendations.

ztoical

Azure_sky wrote: »

Well about half of the US population believe the world is about 6,000 years old. Anyway, the reason for inequality is because they are a collectivist nation. It has it's advantages and disadvantages I guess. There's a lot of pressure to conform and that's probably why there are so many hikkikomori (acute social withdrawal) in Japan. I guess that's why anime and video games is so popular over there, it's an escape for them.

Someones religious views do not reflect their IQ levels. While you might look down on people who holds those views on creation it does not mean they are stupid just badly educated. I've spent a great deal of time in both the States and Japan and encountered plenty of really smart and really dumb people in both countries. I think your forming view of both countries based on the media and less on actually spending time in the countries. I know more people who are obessed with fishing in Japan then video games. Terms like hikkikomori are simply umbrella terms for conditions like agoraphobia and social phobia or social anxiety problems which Japan does not have statistically more numbers of then other first world countries.

Azure_sky wrote: »

Yeah again that proves nothing. IQ tests doesn't prove anything about a persons actual intelligence and are more a reflection of a persons social position. There are different IQ tests used all over the world and many are outdatted and are biased towards certain social and enthic groups so trying to show a mean average for the entire world population just doesn't work. There is also the sampling issues of tests taken in different countries, are you comparing like with like to relfect a truely accurate unbiased test result.

liah

Man, poor Australia :pac:

Rev Hellfire

For a group supposedly concerned about equality, bandying charts showing various races as being intellectuality inferior is a funny way to set about it.

ztoical

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

For a group supposedly concerned about equality, bandying charts showing various races as being intellectuality inferior is a funny way to set about it.

It also helps to read the source of said chart before being distracted by pretty colour coded pictures.

Azure_sky

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

For a group supposedly concerned about equality, bandying charts showing various races as being intellectuality inferior is a funny way to set about it.

Firstly, please don't put words in my mouth. Secondly, I speak for myself as an individual, not transsexuals as a group.Thirdly I never once said I believe I.Q. is innate nor did I ever say there is not an element of cultural bias in I.Q tests. Accusing someone of racism is a pretty big thing, especially when you cite (misinterpret) one person of being representative of a group.

Rev Hellfire

ztoical wrote: »

It also helps to read the source of said chart before being distracted by pretty colour coded pictures.

The colours on the chart are meaningless to me since I don't believe one race is inherently intellectuality inferior to another.

But clearly the reason the poster displayed this chart was in an attempt to provide 'proof' that this is the case in response to your request for validation that the Japanese are indeed intellectuality superior to Americans. (imho etc)

Azure_sky wrote: »

Firstly, please don't put words in my mouth.

There's no need for me to put words in your mouth, you seem quite capable on that score yourself.

ztoical

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

The colours on the chart are meaningless to me since I don't believe one race is inherently intellectuality inferior to another.

I totally agree sorry if my post looked like a comment on what you had posted, it was more in addition to what you were saying.

Azure_sky

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

There's no need for me to put words in your mouth, you seem quite capable on that score yourself.

Once again you are calling me a racist, with nothing to back up your argument, nor refute my counter rebuttals, bar cliched one liners and under handed innuendos. I never once said any race is inherently superior to another. I think you should apologise as you've done me a terrible wrong.

ztoical wrote: »

I totally agree sorry if my post looked like a comment on what you had posted, it was more in addition to what you were saying.

Then why did you ask for a citation for something you don't believe in? Kind of like asking for someone to produce a living Dodo, no?

ztoical

Azure_sky wrote: »

Once again you are calling me a racist, with nothing to back up your argument, nor refute my counter rebuttals, bar cliched one liners and under handed innuendos. I never once said any race is inherently superior to another. I think you should apologise as you've done me a terrible wrong.

You said Japanese people had higher IQ's how is that not saying that are better then people from other countries?

Azure_sky

ztoical wrote: »

You said Japanese people had higher IQ's how is that not saying that are better then people from other countries?

That's not racism. Racism is the belief that some races are inherently superior to others. I never said that. Education (or lack of it), religious indoctrination and society are factors which influence I.Q.

ztoical

Azure_sky wrote: »

Then why did you ask for a citation for something you don't believe in? Kind of like asking for someone to produce a living Dodo, no?

Because I don't think I know everything and am open to correction if someone provides me with evidence. I asked you provide links to prove your claim that Japan has on average higher IQ's and all you did was link to a world map without providing any context for it. My own reserach into the source of the linked map shows it doesn't prove your claim at all.

ztoical

Azure_sky wrote: »

That's not racism. Racism is the belief that some races are inherently superior to others. I never said that. Education (or lack of it), religious indoctrination and society are factors which influence I.Q.

When replying to my post asking for proof of your claim regarding IQ you stated that nearly half of americans think the world is 6000 years old - that is related to religious indoctrination not IQ yet you brought it up as an example.

Azure_sky

ztoical wrote: »

Because I don't think I know everything and am open to correction if someone provides me with evidence. I asked you provide links to prove your claim that Japan has on average higher IQ's and all you did was link to a world map without providing any context for it. My own reserach into the source of the linked map shows it doesn't prove your claim at all.

This is an LGBT support forum on the internet. Let's put things into perspective. I'm not going to put the same effort into evaluating citations as I am into a University thesis.

Look just forget it. This has gotten way off topic and out of hand. Mods, please lock the thread.:rolleyes: I've found much greener pasture's for trans related support and discussion anyway.:p

ztoical wrote: »

When replying to my post asking for proof of your claim regarding IQ you stated that nearly half of americans think the world is 6000 years old - that is related to religious indoctrination not IQ yet you brought it up as an example.

Religious indoctrination is related to societal factors and has an effect on education, which is in turn related to I.Q.