EU/IMF investigating PS pay

femur61

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/john-drennan/john-drennan-imf-slams-outrageous-public-pay-rates-2596280.htmlJohn Drennan writes in the SINDO that the EU/IMF are investigating the outrageous pay of our PS. Its about time, basic maths will suffice to see with a population of 4m the PS are the highest paid in Europe, their wages be sustained.

Caoimhín

Electrical workers highest paid in the world :eek:

Not really surprised though, the Croke Park agreement was a red herring.

danbohan

femur61 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/john-drennan/john-drennan-imf-slams-outrageous-public-pay-rates-2596280.htmlJohn Drennan writes in the SINDO that the EU/IMF are investigating the outrageous pay of our PS. Its about time, basic maths will suffice to see with a population of 4m the PS are the highest paid in Europe, their wages be sustained.

hopefully they will recommend a 40% cut in numbers and a similar cut in pay , that should bring it into line with other countries , trying to make the remaining public sector workers as efficient as elsewhere will take longer, however having the ability to sack them at will would be a great help

ParkRunner

As part of this process, high-level European and IMF bureaucrats have compiled a list of top-level public sector pay and are believed to be deeply unimpressed by the huge disparities between the packages secured by European public sector mandarins and their Irish counterparts.

Are they really deeply unimpressed or is it just John Drennan's unsubstantiated beliefs?

ei.sdraob

EF wrote: »

Are they really deeply unimpressed or is it just John Drennan's unsubstantiated beliefs?

They are certainly "concerned" enough to be spending time on it

mari2222

It wont take long to investigate - the rates are all publicly published!

Flex

Its not that surprising. We're all well aware of the figures and the disparity in pay between the Irish PS and any other public sectors, as well as the Irish PS versus the Irish private sector.

This is an excellent opportunity to really reform the PS. People should be paid based on how good a worker they are; their work ethic, attitude, experience, qualifications. The company I work for is a rather large organisation, and when you want a pay increase or to move up from your present role you generally make it known to your manager or the head of your department, then organise a meeting where you set out the reasons that you think you deserve it (show how youve improved your area of work, prove your skillset and experience could find you a higher paying job elsewhere, demonstrate that the company is still better off paying the extra salary in order to keep you because they wouldnt be able to find someone who works as well as you for similar money, etc.)... Thats how Id like to see our PS work; allow the talented people with drive and ambition to move up the ladder quicker and reach positions where they could make meaningful changes, while the wasters who rely on the current system of being carried via collective bargaining, non-performance based incremental pay rises and seniority based promotions would be left behind on static levels of pay and eventually removed from the organisation and replaced with better people.

I doubt any of the above would ever happen given the fact the PS is a highly unionised workforce, so wouldnt be open to progress/improvement or a system of meritocracy, but these are rather exceptional times so it will be interesting to see what happens before the end of the year.

gigino

I hope cuts are done in a fair way. I also hope pensions and social welfare are reduced, and third level students pay a higher cost of their education etc.

Amhran Nua

I wonder will we see more hysterical tantrums like that professor who raised a call for academic staff to apparently seize public universities by main force of ego and make them private, over pay cuts. Strikes are on the way, folks.

What the government should be doing is preparing streamlined alternatives to the beaurocracy for when the smoke clears. Electronic patients records cut 98% of the administration overhead in that area in Singapore. Do we even really need clerks in the civil service these days?

But of course this is what happens when you combine permanent job security with systemically important jobs with unionisation. You get bent over a barrel. One of those three is going to have to be gotten rid of to prevent further problems arising.

Welease

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I wonder will we see more hysterical tantrums like that professor who raised a call for academic staff to apparently seize public universities by main force of ego and make them private, over pay cuts. Strikes are on the way, folks.

What the government should be doing is preparing streamlined alternatives to the beaurocracy for when the smoke clears. Electronic patients records cut 98% of the administration overhead in that area in Singapore. Do we even really need clerks in the civil service these days?

But of course this is what happens when you combine permanent job security with systemically important jobs with unionisation. You get bent over a barrel. One of those three is going to have to be gotten rid of to prevent further problems arising.

I'm hoping that those who maintain a defence of the status quo (unnecessary roles, uniform pay increases etc) will finally see the outcome of those actions. If your pay is being cut by X amount, it is being cut to facilitate the ongoing levels of unnecessary waste and admin etc.

Will they be continue to as supportive (or in denial) when the reality of their decisions kick in?

(I firmly believe that the majority of cuts could have been minimised had the PS aggressively driven to reduce wastage and unnecessary overhead since this crisis began)

Bigcheeze

This is how the government will get further pay cuts through- by putting the blame on the eu/IMF

smokie2008

femur61 wrote: »

John Drennan writes in the SINDO that the EU/IMF are investigating the outrageous pay of our PS. Its about time, basic maths will suffice to see with a population of 4m the PS are the highest paid in Europe, their wages be sustained.

Yes because its one of the most expensive Country's in Europe to live, cost you less to live on the fekin champs Elysee in Paris for gods sake.

Cut the wages, fine, then you gotta cut VAT, fuel costs, rents etc. which can't happen.

Tell John Drennan smokie said to fekoff.

ei.sdraob

smokie2008 wrote: »

Cut the wages, fine, then you gotta cut VAT, fuel costs, rents etc. which can't happen.

All of these sectors are controlled or run or distorted by the state often employing unionised (semi)public workers

reap what you sow...


the 140% increase in public expenditure (double the GDP growth from 2000-2008 and mind you increasing public expenditure in itself distorts GDP) directly led to higher inflation, hell most state controlled sectors continued to inflate right thru this recession.

ardmacha

the 140% increase in public expenditure (double the GDP growth from 2000-2008 and mind you increasing public expenditure in itself distorts GDP)

That's a sindo type figure. Are you saying that total public expenditure in the period 2000-2008 grew twice as much as GDP? Source?

ilovelamp2000

Having been a public sector worker for the last 4 years and after listening to everyone talking about how much i was overpaid, I have to say I was absolutely amazed when I applied for a job to get back into the private sector and was offered 25% more in salary plus free health insurance and a gym membership (and two extra leave days a year).

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

RichardAnd

danbohan wrote: »

hopefully they will recommend a 40% cut in numbers and a similar cut in pay , that should bring it into line with other countries , trying to make the remaining public sector workers as efficient as elsewhere will take longer, however having the ability to sack them at will would be a great help

Yes because an extra 150 thousand or so unemployed people will really help stimulate the country. Will you feel better then?

silverharp

you only have to look at the NGOs and quangos to see pay is out of control. Angela Kerins the CEO of Rehab has a package between 400/500K if the recent media reports are to be believed. This organisation gets most of their funding from the HSE and Fas. Its crazy stuff.

DeirdreD

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

Having been a public sector worker for the last 4 years and after listening to everyone talking about how much i was overpaid, I have to say I was absolutely amazed when I applied for a job to get back into the private sector and was offered 25% more in salary plus free health insurance and a gym membership (and two extra leave days a year).

I used to work within the public service, am now in a semi state company and have great benefits. Does anyone know if semi-states are also being looked into in relation to value for money?

RichardAnd

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

Having been a public sector worker for the last 4 years and after listening to everyone talking about how much i was overpaid, I have to say I was absolutely amazed when I applied for a job to get back into the private sector and was offered 25% more in salary plus free health insurance and a gym membership (and two extra leave days a year).

Shh, you'll upset all the teenagers pretending to be private sector workers doing 60 hours a week on minim wage with 5 kids and 6 puppies to feed.

silverharp

RichardAnd wrote: »

Shh, you'll upset all the teenagers pretending to be private sector workers doing 60 hours a week on minim wage with 5 kids and 6 puppies to feed.

I assume his company isnt spending 5 euros for every 3 coming in

thebman

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

Having been a public sector worker for the last 4 years and after listening to everyone talking about how much i was overpaid, I have to say I was absolutely amazed when I applied for a job to get back into the private sector and was offered 25% more in salary plus free health insurance and a gym membership (and two extra leave days a year).

Public sector workers are not usually paid the same as private sector workers. Look at the rest of the EU and its comparison of private sector pay to public sector pay in their own countries. That ratio would be the most accurate display of disparity IMO.

ilovelamp2000

RichardAnd wrote: »

Shh, you'll upset all the teenagers pretending to be private sector workers doing 60 hours a week on minim wage with 5 kids and 6 puppies to feed.

Well to be fair there are some elements of the public service that is overpaid and it does appear to be overstocked with a middle management class that do sweet FA.

The problem is nothing will ever be done about those things, because the political will is not there to actually go into the places that need sorting and sort them out. They'll try to do things "fairly" , i.e. wait for people to die and/or leave.

And pay is only one aspect, we need to look at the rates the civil / public service pay for contracted services, leases etc. There's a whole host of dodgy things going on.

ilovelamp2000

thebman wrote: »

Public sector workers are not usually paid the same as private sector workers. Look at the rest of the EU and its comparison of private sector pay to public sector pay in their own countries. That ratio would be the most accurate display of disparity IMO.

I thought i get paid twice as much as someone in the private sector ?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056119123

ilovelamp2000

silverharp wrote: »

I assume his company isnt spending 5 euros for every 3 coming in

Because no private company has ever handed out pay rises and bonuses in the while losing money hand over fist.


Let me introduce you to AIB,BOI and Anglo.

ardmacha

It's the government's own figure.

ei.sdraob posted the misleading sindo style statement that public service expenditure grew at double the GDP growth from 2000-2008 (for which 5 people thanked him/her!)

Permabear pointed out that the Minister had said this, fair enough. But for the ratio is nonsense as GDP growth in that period exceeded the public spending increase.

The question was posted earlier, how can figures lie? The can lie if people try to substantiate their prejudices by dividing growth in gross public expenditure by growth in real GDP per capita (or some other incorrect figure).

thebman

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

Because no private company has ever handed out pay rises and bonuses in the while losing money hand over fist.


Let me introduce you to AIB,BOI and Anglo.

Those are mostly state owned now or getting donations from the state to keep the nonsense going.

They aren't indicative of the private sector in general because the government nor anyone else will bail out private companies losing money hand over fist because it would be a stupid investment.

The only reason the government did it with the banks was to protect its tax intake from the rest of the economy which depends on those banks and has money in those banks just like the citizens of the state have money invested in those banks (pension funds) or deposits in those banks.

ardmacha

It is also worth noting that the great organ of anti-PS campaign, the sindo are plagiarists. This suggests that they lack integrity and the ability to conduct their own research


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0319/1224292607680.html

For instance, consider a set of figures published this week by the Central Statistics Office (CSO) on pay rates in the Irish economy. According to the CSO, average weekly earnings in the Irish public sector are €912.84. This contrasts with average weekly earnings of €624.99 in the private sector, an astonishing gap in income.

In Britain the public service is also better paid than the private sector but the margin is not nearly so wide. Average earnings in the British public service were €634 a week on the last available set of figures by contrast to €912 in Ireland.



http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/a-bloated-and-pampered-public-sector-is-bleeding-the-nation-dry-2596184.html

For instance, consider the figures published this week by the Central Statistics Office (CSO) on pay rates in the Irish economy. According to the CSO, average weekly earnings in the Irish public sector are €912.84. This contrasts with average weekly earnings of €624.99 in the private sector, an extraordinary gap.

In Britain the public service is also better paid than the private sector but the margin is not nearly so wide. Average earnings in the British public service were €634 a week on the last available set of figures by contrast to €912 in Ireland.

ei.sdraob

ardmacha wrote: »

That's a sindo type figure. Are you saying that total public expenditure in the period 2000-2008 grew twice as much as GDP? Source?

ardmacha wrote: »

ei.sdraob posted the misleading sindo style statement that public service expenditure grew at double the GDP growth from 2000-2008 (for which 5 people thanked him/her!)

No thats a Department of Finance figure of which they are quite proud so where FF!

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Updated presentation over on finance.gov.ie (webview link no pdf reader required)

Anyways I just scanned thru' all the pages quickly, alot of the usual spin about "smart" economy, educated workforce etc etc

The graph on page 7 is interesting, in a true "The Best is yet to Come" fashion they are highlighting that the population wont age as quick as the rest of EU in the population forecasts going forward, that's if the young people don't all emigrate looking for jobs (after getting their education) and/or opt out of the debts imposed on them....

page 17 apparently the current account will be in surplus this year, well see


And amazingly they are actually boasting about this table on page 19, why do I have a feeling FF will use these stats in the election campaign.

---

from this report, competitiveness in the same time-frame as above table

I am not sure why the dept of finance are so proud of pouring petrol into the fire during 2000-2008, per their own figures welfare/health/education spend grew faster than the GDP (which is not the best indicator to be using in Ireland, but what can you do), anyone have the % GNP growth in same period out of interest?

Dannyboy83

RichardAnd wrote: »

Yes because an extra 150 thousand or so unemployed people will really help stimulate the country. Will you feel better then?

Imagine you have a patient suffering from 2 gunshot wounds.
Unless you close those wounds and stop that hemorrhaging, that patient is dead. You can transfuse blood till the cows come home, won't make the slightest difference.

Same difference with Ireland.
But, we are now 3 years into this crisis, with very little in the way of reform having occurred.
It wouldn't be much different than pumping gallons into that gunshot victim for weeks on end, without every closing his wounds, then wondering why he was bleeding to death.

Personally I am delighted with this news.
If we get state spending under control, we will survive this crisis and be in a far better situation to rebound out of it.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob

One also needs to stress the an important point about the GDP formula

GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports)

An increase in government spending also increases the GDP hence i why i used the words "further distort"
So to have a double the GDP growth rate in government spending is incredible.

The current lot are hoping that (exports-imports) part of the equation help lift us out, but as seen in recent reports that alone is not enough despite record exports
The private consumption is down and will stay so more or less (we dont need another bubble)
while the gross investment is being put at risk by EU and corporation tax farce


@ardmacha
Please do not go harsh on me for pointing at the governments own figures.
I fully realise that public expenditure is only half of our problems and is somewhat being addressed in last year or so (tho not fast enough) the banking problem is as large if not larger and no steps being taken to resolve that

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

AlekSmart

smokie2008 wrote: »

Yes because its one of the most expensive Country's in Europe to live, cost you less to live on the fekin champs Elysee in Paris for gods sake.

Cut the wages, fine, then you gotta cut VAT, fuel costs, rents etc. which can't happen.

Tell John Drennan smokie said to fekoff.

Well feckin said,smokie !!

Much of the "comparison" critique stuff we see is well and good but simplistic Public vs Private pay rate comparisons,of themselves,can be somewhat useless.

One associated issue is that all of the current crop of overpaid PS workers are now paying the full-raft of PAYE,PRSI and USC deduction which go largely to fund the activities of other great Public Service...The Dept of Social Protection.

With the continuing availability of opportunities to cross-claim,double claim and "arrange" one`s social situation to maximize DSP "entitlements" it may not be Champs Elysee,but it`s surely not Dead-Pan Alley for many thousands of long-term DSP "Customers".

Like it or not,the real pressing need for change is where the money is going rather than where it`s coming from.

Private Rented Accomodation allowance.
Medical Card
Free Transport Scheme
Free Electricity
Free Telephone Rental (Inc Mobile allowance where appropriate)

These,and a substantial tranche of Child related additional "entitlements" all add up to a substantial requirement for funding,additional to that required to keep the basic DSP Cash Disbursements in place.

If the desires of many posters are to be met,and the well-paid ,highly contribuitive PS workers are taken out of the equation then it will indeed be interesting to see what creative accounting will maintain the DSP`s wide "Protection" remit ?

ardmacha

@ardmacha
Please do not go harsh on me for pointing at the governments own figures.
I fully realise that public expenditure is only half of our problems and is somewhat being addressed in last year or so (tho not fast enough) the banking problem is as large if not larger and no steps being taken to resolve that

I think I went into the tackle a bit harshly on this one, for which I apologise. My initial search for the GDP figures threw up an international comparison in dollars and changes in the exchange rate confused the issue.

My only observation would be that 2000-2008 is a particular range to pick as expenditure had ramped up as unemployment increased, GDP had fallen, but most of the expenditure cuts hadn't started.

My other observation is the need to establish what exactly this increase was spent on, not just aggregates.

danbohan

RichardAnd wrote: »

Yes because an extra 150 thousand or so unemployed people will really help stimulate the country. Will you feel better then?

no it wont make me feel better , as it did not make me feel better because 150,000 construction workers lost their jobs because their bosses went bankrupt and could not pay them , i dont see why public servants should be any different , their boss is bankrupt and borrowing billions to pay them the highest salary in Europe , can it continue ? only in public sector dreamland

barfizz

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

Having been a public sector worker for the last 4 years and after listening to everyone talking about how much i was overpaid, I have to say I was absolutely amazed when I applied for a job to get back into the private sector and was offered 25% more in salary plus free health insurance and a gym membership (and two extra leave days a year).

Did you take the job?

Spudmonkey

RichardAnd wrote: »

Yes because an extra 150 thousand or so unemployed people will really help stimulate the country. Will you feel better then?

Yeah Richard, sure keep them employed purely for the sake of it, even if they aren't needed, that's good business.

ilovelamp2000

barfizz wrote: »

Did you take the job?

Of course.

the groutch

great to hear this happening, should have been part of the original bailout agreement

not yet

danbohan wrote: »

hopefully they will recommend a 40% cut in numbers and a similar cut in pay , that should bring it into line with other countries , trying to make the remaining public sector workers as efficient as elsewhere will take longer, however having the ability to sack them at will would be a great help

Please tell me how cutting the pay of someone on 28k by 40% makes sense in your little world.....

not yet

silverharp wrote: »

I assume his company isnt spending 5 euros for every 3 coming in

Well then look at the biggest % of spending which is social welfare. 22billion on this is absolutely crazy. The fraud in the SW system is enormous.

Amhran Nua

not yet wrote: »

The fraud in the SW system is enormous.

Not really. There are just a lot more people on it than it was meant to be able to handle. During the boom we had near full employment, if the jobs are there people will work. There aren't hundreds of thousands of feckless layabouts sponging off the hardworking citizens. Yes, it's too high, but remember that even fully employed wealthy people are entitled to receive things like child benefit.

The best solution is to create or find lots of well paying jobs. Social welfare bill drops, and tax revenues climb.

Count Dooku

not yet wrote: »

Well then look at the biggest % of spending which is social welfare. 22billion on this is absolutely crazy. The fraud in the SW system is enormous.

500 clerks have been transferred to welfare department but so far no reports about preventing welfare frauds

keithcan

Flex wrote: »

This is an excellent opportunity to really reform the PS. People should be paid based on how good a worker they are; their work ethic, attitude, experience, qualifications. The company I work for is a rather large organisation, and when you want a pay increase or to move up from your present role you generally make it known to your manager or the head of your department, then organise a meeting where you set out the reasons that you think you deserve it (show how youve improved your area of work, prove your skillset and experience could find you a higher paying job elsewhere, demonstrate that the company is still better off paying the extra salary in order to keep you because they wouldnt be able to find someone who works as well as you for similar money, etc.)... Thats how Id like to see our PS work; allow the talented people with drive and ambition to move up the ladder quicker and reach positions where they could make meaningful changes, while the wasters who rely on the current system of being carried via collective bargaining, non-performance based incremental pay rises and seniority based promotions would be left behind on static levels of pay and eventually removed from the organisation and replaced with better people.

I doubt any of the above would ever happen given the fact the PS is a highly unionised workforce, so wouldnt be open to progress/improvement or a system of meritocracy, but these are rather exceptional times so it will be interesting to see what happens before the end of the year.

How do you think that promotions actually happen in the public service? Have you so completely swallowed every daft misrepresentation of the public service that you think promotions all happen on seniority? And that all public servants are are in thrall to their unions and stupidly resisting improvements and modernisation? My God, this is just dreadful that people believe this nonsense. Promotions in any areas of the public service that I know of happen through merit-based competitions. There are no extra 'marks' for seniority. It is possible for someone to be promoted to a senior level quite quickly and at a young age through such competitions.

Of course that is not to say tere aren't other areas where change is needed - other posters have mentioned the need to have sackings for poor performance - but if people believe all of the c*ap that is put about, there is little chance of an intelligent debate here.

keithcan

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

Well to be fair there are some elements of the public service that is overpaid and it does appear to be overstocked with a middle management class that do sweet FA.

People being paid any doing "sweet FA". HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS? IN WHAT SERVICES/AREAS/LOCATIONS IN THIS HAPPENING? I know there's a generally held view that HSE has too many administrators following the merger of all the Health Boards and their Head of HR has said he has too many staff, so nobody sensible would deny there are areas that need reductions. But this language that says people are doing sweet FA. I feel there's a responsibilty to stand up your sweeping assertions.

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

And pay is only one aspect, we need to look at the rates the civil / public service pay for contracted services, leases etc. There's a whole host of dodgy things going on.

AGAIN, HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS? My experience of procurement in the public service is a very tightly controlled process, having to always get multiple quotes, publicly advertise, etc. Are you just throwing out a cheap allegations, or have you details of some dodgy dealings?

Head The Wall

keithcan wrote: »

My experience of procurement in the public service is a very tightly controlled process, having to always get multiple quotes, publicly advertise, etc.

Signing a 25 year lease to store e-voting machines that were already out of date, thats a real good procurement there. Theres plenty of dumbass purchases like that as well but I don't have the night to list them off. It also doesn't speak much about your experience if you are unaware of all the waste that goes on.

A lot of these purchases shouldn't even get to procurement stage but sure it's not their money they are spending and they have to blow the budget or they wont get a bigger budget to blow next year.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

chelseavera

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

Having been a public sector worker for the last 4 years and after listening to everyone talking about how much i was overpaid, I have to say I was absolutely amazed when I applied for a job to get back into the private sector and was offered 25% more in salary plus free health insurance and a gym membership (and two extra leave days a year).

Not amazed at all. I'm coming from the same timescale as yourself - and have always regarded myself UNDERPAID. The figures quoted are very skewed by the inbalance between top and bottom. The fact remains sadly, that if you've been in the public service long enough, some position will be found for you, entitling you to a higher grade. No question reform is needed, but at the bottom, its nigh-on impossible at the moment. Wish people would remember this and not tar us all with the one brush!:mad:

K-9

The Irish Economy » Blog Archive » Behaving Like Teenagers?

Good post here on the adjustment that has taken place and we are only about half way through it, substantial cuts to PS pay through the pension levy, wage cuts and Universal Charge and cuts to welfare and hardly a whimper from them.

It's already the biggest austerity programme in the developed world. It's amazing this has and will occur without Greek or UK riots.

It isn't enough for some of the usuals on the thread but people have shown great restraint and understanding to substantial cuts and tax rises.

rumour

I know its terrible and all that.....how is rioting, demonstrating...throwing a tantrum going toget moremoney.. where is the money going to come from????