Non-Citizen Voting in Ireland

southsiderosie

One thing I find quite surprising - and pretty amazing - about Ireland is the fact that non-citizens, including non-EU citizens, can vote in local elections. But it's not clear where this rule came from.

Does anyone know when and how Ireland introduced non-citizen voting? Has it always existed, or is this a relatively new phenomenon?

Cheers.

jakdelad

southsiderosie wrote: »

One thing I find quite surprising - and pretty amazing - about Ireland is the fact that non-citizens, including non-EU citizens, can vote in local elections. But it's not clear where this rule came from.

Does anyone know when and how Ireland introduced non-citizen voting? Has it always existed, or is this a relatively new phenomenon?

Cheers.

i am sure you ll find it in some EEC treaty we signed years ago
which was obscured like when they gave away our gas and oil rights
and when they took our fishing rights away
just another erosion of our heritage and culture

later12

I am not sure about the local election situation, but the British right to vote in the Republic's elections came about in 1984 due to developing relations between the two countries, and to allow Irish passport holders in NI to be able to vote in British elections (the principle of reciprocity having been required)

In any event, I don't see the harm in allowing non Irish residents who work, and or otherwise pay tax in Ireland have a say in how their taxes are spent at least at local and European level. I'm not sure how affording them that democratic right for the duration of their time here is erosive to our 'heritage' or culture, or certainly any heritage or culture with which I would want to identify.

metrovelvet

southsiderosie wrote: »

One thing I find quite surprising - and pretty amazing - about Ireland is the fact that non-citizens, including non-EU citizens, can vote in local elections. But it's not clear where this rule came from.

Does anyone know when and how Ireland introduced non-citizen voting? Has it always existed, or is this a relatively new phenomenon?

Cheers.

And citizens who live abroad cant vote.

Wildlife Actor

If you pay your taxes here, you should have a vote in the general election here. If you don't you shouldn't, although if you pay rates here, you should have a vote in local elections.

Citizenship is like the chicken's role in breakfast (involved), paying your taxes is like the pig's (committed, especially these days).

I wonder does Denis O'Brien have a vote?

southsiderosie

jakdelad wrote: »

i am sure you ll find it in some EEC treaty we signed years ago
which was obscured like when they gave away our gas and oil rights
and when they took our fishing rights away
just another erosion of our heritage and culture

I am more interested in the fact that non-EU citizens can vote, and I suspect that these regulations have little to do with the EEC.

And can you explain how letting non-citizens vote in local elections erodes Irish heritage and culture?

later12

metrovelvet wrote: »

And citizens who live abroad cant vote.

That makes perfect sense to me; perhaps until such time as citizens abroad begin to pay Irish tax and become the subjects of Irish government policy.

southsiderosie

later10 wrote: »

That makes perfect sense to me; perhaps until such time as citizens abroad begin to pay Irish tax and become the subjects of Irish government policy.

Irish abroad don't pay Irish tax? :eek:

I can never escape Uncle Sam. :mad:

It does seem wrong though that there isn't some mechanism for Irish abroad to be able to vote if they still have residency in Ireland.

PeakOutput

southsiderosie wrote: »

One thing I find quite surprising - and pretty amazing - about Ireland is the fact that non-citizens, including non-EU citizens, can vote in local elections. But it's not clear where this rule came from.

Does anyone know when and how Ireland introduced non-citizen voting? Has it always existed, or is this a relatively new phenomenon?

Cheers.

most western countries I know off allow non citizen residents to vote in local elections, england and the us being the two obvious ones

southsiderosie

PeakOutput wrote: »

most western countries I know off allow non citizen residents to vote in local elections, england and the us being the two obvious ones

There are very very few small municipalities in the US that allow this. By and large, you must be a citizen to vote.

This paper also suggests that 1) non-citizen voting is limited and 2) when it exists, it tends to be based on some kind of reciprocal agreement or historical relationship. Only eleven countries - including Ireland - allow for non-discriminatory voting participation in local elections. Unfortunately the article doesn't note why Ireland granted non-citizen voting rights (or if it did, I missed it), which is really what I am curious about.

metrovelvet

later10 wrote: »

That makes perfect sense to me; perhaps until such time as citizens abroad begin to pay Irish tax and become the subjects of Irish government policy.

What about all the locals who dont pay tax? Should their voting rights be revoked?

later12

metrovelvet wrote: »

What about all the locals who dont pay tax? Should their voting rights be revoked?

I wonder how many people there are living in Ireland who don't pay tax; given that VAT and excise charges are something which I would have thought affect every adult.

In any case, that's why I qualified that with the suggestion that the individual also be subject to Irish government policy, which foreign residents are not. Foreign nationals living in Ireland under working visas, and paying tax in Ireland, are however very much subject to these policies and the Irish tax system, and it seems perfectly reasonable that they be given the vote and that emigrants be refused it.

ISAW

jakdelad wrote: »

i am sure you ll find it in some EEC treaty we signed years ago

Im not. I think it was probably in an Elections Act or Electors act 1927 springs to mind. why not do some research at irishstatutebook.ie?

which was obscured like when they gave away our gas and oil rights
and when they took our fishing rights away
just another erosion of our heritage and culture

It strikes me as odd that when something is is exploitable it becomes part of "heritage and culture". what I mean is many people who complain about the EU "taking all out stuff" would do the very same thing here. They don't want manageable fisheries oil fields or bogs and would quite willingly machine out all the bogs in a generation rather than allow people to cut them by hand forever or have an Irish fleet of factory ships hovering up all the fish or have Irish oil and gas supply our energy needs ( for their profit) rather than invest in renewables and keep the oil as a banker to sell on to others.

ISAW

metrovelvet wrote: »

And citizens who live abroad cant vote.

Yes they can . In the Senate.

The University constituencies presently provide the only overseas representation in the Oireachtas.

ISAW

metrovelvet wrote: »

What about all the locals who dont pay tax? Should their voting rights be revoked?

You have it the wrong way around! The principle is "no taxation without representation" and not "no representation with taxation". the idea is the main instrument of government - finance- is regulated by those who are elected by the people who pay i.e. the tax payer. Taxing and spending is thus dealt with by those elected from tax payers. This is true of the Dáil and US congress. It does NOT rule out non tax payers having an input e.g. some Senators, the Unemployed, foreign nationals, citizens living in another tax net etc. e.g. the US congress had representatives from non states such as Puerto Rico who don't pay US tax but receive US welfare benefits.

southsiderosie

ISAW wrote: »

Im not. I think it was probably in an Elections Act or Electors act 1927 springs to mind. why not do some research at irishstatutebook.ie?

OK, I found the original statute - it's from 1963 - thanks for the link. Do you know of a website that would include transcripts from the parliamentary debate around that particular piece of legislation?

jakdelad

southsiderosie wrote: »

I am more interested in the fact that non-EU citizens can vote, and I suspect that these regulations have little to do with the EEC.

And can you explain how letting non-citizens vote in local elections erodes Irish heritage and culture?

sorry i did not mean it that way
i feel irrspective of creed or colour if you live here in this country
and pay your taxes you should have a say too.
our punt is gone, our distinctive road signs are gone,
our green phone boxes are gone
that sort of erosion,
like the ireland of old
we had fuk all but the country was far more settled

baalthor

southsiderosie wrote: »

OK, I found the original statute - it's from 1963 - thanks for the link. Do you know of a website that would include transcripts from the parliamentary debate around that particular piece of legislation?

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/nav/debates.htm&CatID=50&m=d

Actually
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/
is easier to remember

phantom_lord

jakdelad wrote: »

i am sure you ll find it in some EEC treaty we signed years ago
which was obscured like when they gave away our gas and oil rights

The EEC did what now?

baalthor

This is the relevant quote from the debate; it seems the law was changed to make it easier for British people living here to vote in local elections.

In the case of local elections, it is proposed to allow every person aged 21 years or more who normally resides or occupies property in the area of a local authority to be registered there as a local government elector, irrespective of whether or not he is an Irish citizen. At present a person who is not an Irish citizen can be registered as a local government elector only if he has occupied property in the area of a local authority for six months, or is the wife of such an occupier, and is a British subject. The number of non-citizens who will receive the local government franchise as a result of the proposal will be small, but considerable simplifications in registration procedures will result from the change,

southsiderosie

baalthor wrote: »

This is the relevant quote from the debate; it seems the law was changed to make it easier for British people living here to vote in local elections.

Ah, brilliant - thanks! It seems the Law of Unintended Consequences strikes again...

ISAW

southsiderosie wrote: »

OK, I found the original statute - it's from 1963 - thanks for the link. Do you know of a website that would include transcripts from the parliamentary debate around that particular piece of legislation?

yep
http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/index.html

southsiderosie

Thank you everyone for the very helpful links and leads. Some of the old Dail transcripts are hilarious; by chance, I stumbled across this exchange on poteen inspections between Coogan and Haughey in 1963 - classic!

Marcusm

PeakOutput wrote: »

most western countries I know off allow non citizen residents to vote in local elections, england and the us being the two obvious ones

The UK limits the rights of non citizens to vote. Irish and Commonweath in all elections. EU in EU and local. All others can't vote or appear on the electoral register which hampers access to credit as the agencies use eectoral rolls.

Xcellor

southsiderosie wrote: »

One thing I find quite surprising - and pretty amazing - about Ireland is the fact that non-citizens, including non-EU citizens, can vote in local elections. But it's not clear where this rule came from.

Does anyone know when and how Ireland introduced non-citizen voting? Has it always existed, or is this a relatively new phenomenon?

Cheers.

What I find quite suprising is that my wife who is an Irish resident and has been employed and paid taxes since she came to Ireland 5 years ago can't vote.

The majority of the decisions that are being made at government level effect the tax payer.

My wife has to pay 900 euros to become naturalized so she can vote...

southsiderosie

Xcellor wrote: »

What I find quite suprising is that my wife who is an Irish resident and has been employed and paid taxes since she came to Ireland 5 years ago can't vote.

The majority of the decisions that are being made at government level effect the tax payer.

My wife has to pay 900 euros to become naturalized so she can vote...

She can vote in local elections, but not national elections. Given that the national government makes decisions in regards to foreign relations and immigration law, I do not think it is surprising - or inappropriate - to limit participation to citizens. The fact that UK citizens can vote in Dail elections is a quirk of history, and very, very unusual.

inforfun

People living in a certain country can vote.
People not living in a certain country can not vote.

It seems to make sense.
However, this should be watched very, very carefully. The last few elections in the country where i was born, showed that certain groups of foreigners were receiving voting advise from governements of their country of origin.

These are people, often not able to write or read who were also "supported" at the voting centres making their choice.

People probably want links, which i can provide but google translate will most likely have to help you out as i cant find English links.

Source and source 2

Guess where this election poster was hanging in the streets?

Peregrinus

The fact is, there has never been a time when voting in local elections has been confined to citizens. Back in British days, local authorities were at one time elected by ratepayers, on the principal that the main business of local authorities was raising rates and spending them, and the people who paid the rates should choose the officials responsible. Anyone who paid rates, British subject or otherwise, had a vote. Nothing changed in 1922, and non-citizens continued to vote in local elections.

In due course the franchise was widened, so that all citizens in a local authority’s district got to vote, whether or not they paid rates, as did (most) non-citizens who were registered as property-owners and ratepayers. That remained the position until 1963, when the property/registration requirements for non-citizens were dropped. (The motivation for this wasn’t so much to benefit non-citizens as to simplify the task of keeping the electoral register.)

The position was different when it came to parliamentary elections. Again, we go back to British days. In constitutional theory, Parliament was not being elected to raise taxes and spend them; it was being elected for a wider purpose, to advise the King/Queen on all aspects of government. It was felt fitting that the king should be advised by his own subjects and not by those nasty foreigners, so you had to be a British subject to be elected to Parliament, or to vote in an election.

There were other limitations as well. Notoriously, you had to be male. For a long time, you had to meet a property qualification. (You didn’t want the king being advised by vagabonds, did you?) Over time these limitations were dismantled - FWIW, Ireland did this sooner than the UK - but the citizenship requirement never was. In the UK, the requirement was to be a British subject; with the end of empire this has become a requirement to be a citizen of a Commonwealth country or of Ireland.

There’s actually a fairly strong democratic case for saying that all long-term residents should have the vote. Not only do they pay the same taxes as citizens, but they are subject to the same laws in every respect. They are at the same risk of, e.g, abuse of state power, or neglect by state officials, as a citizen is. The democratic case for granting a resident non-citizen the vote seems to me to be much stronger than the case for granting the vote to a non-resident citizen. Why should somebody who won’t be subject to Irish laws and won’t have to obey them have a say in framing the laws that will affect Irish residents, but not them?

In general, the response to this argument in most countries has not been to extend the vote to non-citizens, but to make citizenship more easily accessible, by establishing procedures by which resident non-citizens can be naturalised, and so acquire the vote.

munchkin_utd

Peregrinus wrote: »

In general, the response to this argument in most countries has not been to extend the vote to non-citizens, but to make citizenship more easily accessible, by establishing procedures by which resident non-citizens can be naturalised, and so acquire the vote.

EXACTLY!

I'm beyond in Germany for the past decade and its the same here.
If you feel strongly connected enough to Germany, you can naturalise and THEN you get the vote.

I used to find that slightly unfair, that I pay horrendus taxes and social charges (still way more than Ireland) but could not vote.
But I can. I just need to affirm my long term allegance to Germany and naturalise.

And for those who feel sorry that their spouse cannot vote.
Ask them could YOU vote in their country without becoming a citizen first. I sincerly doubt it.
(aside from the fact that your spose could well be from one of the 115 countries across the world that allow their emmigrants and/ or citizens to vote from abroad, so at least they can vote somewhere, unlike the Irish abroad - but thats already thrashed out in a few dozen other threads..........)

Amhran Nua

later10 wrote: »

I wonder how many people there are living in Ireland who don't pay tax; given that VAT and excise charges are something which I would have thought affect every adult.

Almost every developed country has managed to give emigrants the vote, without linking it to taxation. The main and perhaps sole exception is the US, who require emigrants to pay US taxes over a certain income level. Even Mexico allows emigrant voting.

What we have here in Ireland is the extremely troubling attitude that emigration is a "safety valve", so the people most affected by bad government decisions and hence most likely to vote down bad government can be quietly shuffled off, the young, educated, and active.

This is not an acceptable attitude, and for this reason if for no other emigrant voting needs to be instated.