REAL Digital on the way

rlogue

REAL Digital are on the way...

rlogue

I understand from my sources that REAL Digital have had to lodge a complaint with the BAI as RTÉ appear unwilling to strike a deal with them.

galtee boy

I'm all for competition and welcome Real Digital to the market. But without RTE on board, I can't see it taking off here. One platform with all the UK and Irish terrestrials on one EPG would have been brilliant and would have been worth a small annual fee to cover whatever sort of encryption RTE would need. In the meantime, what would make me give up my Foxsat HDR Freesat box, to get a similar Fortec Star HDR Real Digital box ?

rlogue

I would agree with you but the question has to be asked why would RTE object? Surely as a public service broadcaster they should be made available on all platforms provided the supplier covers the costs?

rlogue

The extra incentive from the Irish consumer's point of view is cheaper access to Sky Sports 1&2. Getting all the Irish and UK channels on a single EPG that can be recorded from is also a winning point.

Apogee

rlogue wrote: »

I would agree with you but the question has to be asked why would RTE object? Surely as a public service broadcaster they should be made available on all platforms provided the supplier covers the costs?

One possibility is that their contract with Sky for free carriage is predicated on Sky having exclusive satellite rights to RTÉ on 28E.

Real Digital have been 'on the way' for a considerable length of time. Is there anything more concrete to this other than a photo of a box and RC?

galtee boy

rlogue wrote: »

I would agree with you but the question has to be asked why would RTE object? Surely as a public service broadcaster they should be made available on all platforms provided the supplier covers the costs?

It can only be pressure from Sky. RTE ( and TG4,TV3) apparently get a free ride on satellite from Sky and I would guess there is an exclusivity clause in there preventing them from going on any other satellite platform. If they were paying their own way on Sky, they would have a lot more freedom. I could be wrong, but that's my guess.

rlogue

There will be press announcements next week I believe with test transmissions following shortly after.

mjsmyth

Does this mean then that if Real Digital get RTE channels on their EPG that it is going to cost RTE money?

If RTE have a deal with Sky whereby they get free carriage on Sky, then surely Sky will look at that deal and kill it off, thus meaning RTE will have to pay carriage costs.

What of TG4, TV3 and 3E, are they going to sign up for Real Digital? If so, how much is it likely to cost them to dual encrypt? Can Real Digital, a non Irish company, force RTE to be on their EPG?

My fear is that the Irish channels will incur extra costs to appear on the EPG of Real Digital, a new satellite tv provider, that is trying to gain access to an Irish market dominated by Sky (satellite) and UPC (cable).

If RD launches and fails, how will that effect the Irish channels? One would imagine that Sky would be unwilling to offer the free carriage deal again to RTE and the other channels would have shelled out good money on dual encryption.

I have no problem with RD coming in to the Irish market, I just worry that they may be on to a hiding to nothing here as the tv market already has two dominant forces.

rlogue

The Broadcasting Acts are very specific about carriage deals - no Irish channels should pay for carriage or EPG listings.

Now I only know about a complaint being lodged regarding RTE so it might be possible that TV3 and TG4 would be on board, but we may know more next week. I dont have any more specific information than that.

rlogue

Don't forget that RTE would not lose too much sleep if they were off the Sky EPG as they are more interested in promoting Saorview and Saorsat.

Perhaps thats why they are not rushing to strike a deal with RD?

Tony

rlogue wrote: »

Don't forget that RTE would not lose too much sleep if they were off the Sky EPG

Their advertisers might not be too enamoured though

The Cush

rlogue wrote: »

The Broadcasting Acts are very specific about carriage deals - no Irish channels should pay for carriage or EPG listings.

Can you quote the section from the Broadcasting Act?

This is the "must-offer" section of the Act in relation to satellite transmission which is "subject to agreement as to fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory terms of use". It also requires the satellite service provider not to charge a subscriber and additional fee for the FTA Irish channels, no specific mention of not charging RTÉ, TV3 or TG4 for carriage or epg in this section.

77. ... (12) RTÉ , TG4 and the television service programme contractor
shall ensure that their must-offer services are at all times offered for
broadcast or re-transmission (subject to agreement as to fair, reasonable
and non-discriminatory terms of use) by means of every satellite
television service.

(13) Arrangements entered into under subsection (12) shall not
result in an additional charge on any subscriber to a satellite television
service by reason of the making available to that subscriber of
any must-offer service by way of the satellite television service.

(14) Subject to the requirements of any contract made under
section 74 any arrangement entered into under subsection (12) shall
ensure that the electronic programme guide by which members of
the public access the satellite television service shall prioritise the
positioning of the must-offer service for the purposes of that satellite
television service and for the purposes of any other satellite television
service which also utilises the same electronic programme
guide for the purposes of making a satellite television service available
for reception in an intelligible form by members of the public
in the whole of or in part of the State.

rlogue

Cush you know the Broadcasting Acts probably better than I do.

So why are you asking me?

For the record, I took part in the eConsultation process for the 2009 Act and one of the key points I wanted raised in the act were these:

1: All platforms whether satellite, cable or terrestrial should carry all Irish channels subject to reasonable terms and conditions and without cost to either the consumer or the broadcaster

2: No one platform should dominate or carry more Irish channels than any other.

The specific section of the Broadcasting Act 2009 is Section 77 and here it is:

77.—(1) (a) In this Part “appropriate network” means an electronic
communications network provided by a person
(“appropriate network provider”) which is used for the
distribution or transmission of broadcasting services to
the public.
(b) For the purposes of this section a multiplex contractor in
relation to multiplexes referred to in section 132(1), (2),
(3) and (4) or in section 133 is not an appropriate network
provider by virtue of being a multiplex contractor or
associated activities.
(c) For the purposes of this section a holder of a licence
referred to in section 76(1), the terms of which authorise
the transmission by means of a MMD system of programme
material, is not an appropriate network provider
by virtue of being a licensee or associated activities.
(d) For the purposes of this section a holder of a licence issued
under section 59 or 121, the terms of which authorise the
transmission of programme material, is not an appropriate
network provider by virtue of being a licensee
under that section or associated activities.
(2) Where the Authority is of the view, after carrying out a review
and after consultation with the Communications Regulator, that a
type or class of network system, rather than an individual network
system, is not used by a significant number of end-users as their principal
means of receiving transmissions of programme material, it may
propose to the Minister the full or partial removal of the obligations
85
Pt.6 S.76
Must-carry and
must-offer
obligations.
Pt.6 S.77
86
[No. 18.] Broadcasting Act 2009. [2009.]
set out in subsections (3), (4), (5), (6), (7), (8), (9) and (10) on that
type or class of network system. The Minister may make an order to
that effect.
(3) In the case where the appropriate network is a digital system,
the appropriate network provider shall ensure the re-transmission,
by or through his or her appropriate network, of the Houses of the
Oireachtas Channel and the Irish Film Channel.
(4) An appropriate network provider shall ensure the re-transmission,
by or through his or her appropriate network, of each freeto-
air television service provided for the time being by RTE´ , TG4
and the free-to-air service provided under section 70 by the television
service programme contractor which that body or contractor requests
the appropriate network provider to so re-transmit.
(5) If a dispute arises between the appropriate network provider
and RTE´ , TG4 or the television programme service contractor in
relation to the placement by the appropriate network provider, relative
to the placement by him or her of another broadcasting service,
on the system concerned of a free-to-air service provided by that
body or contractor, being a placement made on an appropriate network
for the purposes of the appropriate network provider complying
with a request by that body or contractor under subsection
(4), the dispute shall be referred to the Authority for its determination
and the determination of the Authority in the matter shall
be final.
(6) An appropriate network provider shall re-transmit each
national sound broadcasting service provided for the time being by
RTE´ and each sound broadcasting contractor and which RTE´ or the
contractor concerned requests the holder to so re-transmit.
(7) The appropriate network provider shall not impose a charge
or allow a charge to be imposed in relation to the making available
to a person of any service referred to in subsection (3), (4), (5) or (6)
if he or she imposes a charge or allows a charge to be imposed on
that person in relation to the making available of any other service
to that person by means of the appropriate network concerned.
(8) The Authority may require an appropriate network provider
to transmit as a broadcasting service, by means of specified appropriate
networks (whether analogue or digital) maintained by the
appropriate network provider, the whole or part of the programme
material supplied under one or more specified community content
provision contracts the holders of which are members of the local
community or community of interest that is served by the said appropriate
network and who request the first-mentioned appropriate network
provider to so transmit the whole or, as the case may be, part
of that programme material.
(9) A person of whom a requirement is made by the Authority
under subsection (8) shall comply with that requirement.
(10) An appropriate network provider shall not impose a charge
or allow a charge to be imposed in relation to the making available
to a person of any service referred to in subsection (8), pursuant to
a requirement made of him or her under that subsection, if he or she
imposes a charge or allows a charge to be imposed on that person in
relation to the making available of any other service to that person
by means of the appropriate network concerned.
[2009.] Broadcasting Act 2009. [No. 18.]
(11) Without prejudice to the requirements imposed under subsection
(4), RTE´ , TG4 and the television service programme contractor
shall ensure that their must-offer services are at all times offered
for re-transmission (subject to agreement as to fair, reasonable and
non-discriminatory terms of use) by means of any appropriate network
that is available for reception in an intelligible form by
members of the public in the whole of or in part of the State.
(12) RTE´ , TG4 and the television service programme contractor
shall ensure that their must-offer services are at all times offered for
broadcast or re-transmission (subject to agreement as to fair, reasonable
and non-discriminatory terms of use) by means of every satellite
television service.
(13) Arrangements entered into under subsection (12) shall not
result in an additional charge on any subscriber to a satellite television
service by reason of the making available to that subscriber of
any must-offer service by way of the satellite television service.
(14) Subject to the requirements of any contract made under
section 74 any arrangement entered into under subsection (12) shall
ensure that the electronic programme guide by which members of
the public access the satellite television service shall prioritise the
positioning of the must-offer service for the purposes of that satellite
television service and for the purposes of any other satellite television
service which also utilises the same electronic programme
guide for the purposes of making a satellite television service available
for reception in an intelligible form by members of the public
in the whole of or in part of the State.
(15) The Authority shall report to the Minister on an annual basis
in relation to the operation of this section.
(16) (a) An order under subsection (2) shall be laid before each
House of the Oireachtas by the Minister as soon as may
be after it is made.
(b) Either House of the Oireachtas may, by resolution passed
within 21 sitting days after the day on which an order was
laid before it in accordance with paragraph (a), pass a
resolution annulling the order.
(c) The annulment under paragraph (b) of an order takes
effect immediately on the passing of the resolution concerned
but does not affect anything that was done under
the order before the passing of the resolution.
(17) In this section—
“must-offer service” means a free-to-air television service provided
for the time being by RTE´ , TG4 and the free-to-air service provided
under section 70 by the television service programme contractor;
“re-transmission” means near-simultaneous, unaltered and
unabridged transmission;
“satellite television service” means a service which consists in or
involves the distribution or transmission of television broadcasting
services from a satellite, such services then offered to the public with
the intention that such services be used by a significant number of
the persons in the whole or part of the State by whom the broadcasts
are received in an intelligible form as their principal means of receiving
television programmes.

Mr McBoatface

SKY approached RTE not the other way around. SKY need RTE as much if not more than RTE need SKY. SKY need RTE to retain customers, can you imagine the amount of people who would leave Sky should RTE disappear off the EPG? .....it would be huge. RTE need SKY for the continued high viewing numbers.

If my memory is correct, RTE can't pay for carriage cost for any platform but their own due to regulations. If SKY demanded payment from RTE I'm sure the state would be minded to pursue them for VAT which they have never paid to the Irish exchequer ....

Anyway I from what I recall RTE are bound to make themselves available to all platform/providers in Ireland (regardless of them paying VAT it would seem)

I await the actual announcement before judging or getting into speculation. It will be interesting to see if they will use NDS encryption like SKY, I assume they will be using the same transponders and data streams as SKY/Freesat.

rlogue

So, in my interpretation of the act - no carrier should charge the consumer for reception of the main Irish channels on their service, the terms between the broadcasters and the carriers should be fair, reasonable and non-discrimatory to use the specific terms in the act and therefore should be the same for each provider.

Did I pass the exam Cush?

Tony

Thats interesting, so for arguments sake (as I dont know the exact deal) if RTE provide their channels free to sky they must also do the same for any other operator ? Would that be a reasonable assumption?

rlogue wrote: »

So, in my interpretation of the act - no carrier should charge the consumer for reception of the main Irish channels on their service, the terms between the broadcasters and the carriers should be fair, reasonable and non-discrimatory to use the specific terms in the act and therefore should be the same for each provider.

rlogue

I think that would be a very reasonable assumption Tony.

The Cush

rlogue wrote: »

The Broadcasting Acts are very specific about carriage deals - no Irish channels should pay for carriage or EPG listings.

rlogue wrote: »

So, in my interpretation of the act - no carrier should charge the consumer for reception of the main Irish channels on their service, the terms between the broadcasters and the carriers should be fair, reasonable and non-discrimatory to use the specific terms in the act and therefore should be the same for each provider.

Did I pass the exam Cush?

The problem is, in the Act there is nothing specific regarding charges for carriage and epg and this may be a reason for the complaint to the BAI.

The other fly in the ointment here is Saorsat, RTÉ will be paying up to €1.5 million to Eutelsat to provide this service. The counter argument to this could be that Saorsat is to provide full national back-up coverage on satellite in the event of an emergency or catastrophic failure of the DTT system and the final 2% coverage not provided by the terrestrial network.

watty

rlogue wrote: »

I understand from my sources that REAL Digital have had to lodge a complaint with the BAI as RTÉ appear unwilling to strike a deal with them.

I can imagine the "deal" Real Digital TV want. It won't wash.

Let Real Digital prove they are a platform, and pay for the Carriage and Encryption and RTE will gladly sign.

I think when all the details come out, what Real Digital wants isn't reasonable.

Also it's as much a locked in proprietary platform as Sky.

It can't provide UK Irish Coverage any more than Sky can.

Real Digital is a Pay TV platform that as yet doesn't exist.

Real Digital TV can't provide RTE Free to Air. It's not an alternative to Saorsat, it's a likely to go bust alternative to Sky. Where is their Sky Sports that was to launch in January?
Finance:
Rapture TV (none)
Info TV (little)
Fortec Star (As much as they can spare as it will sell Fortec Boxes).
Real Digital insist you have to buy their approved box and card for Service. It would be interesting to hear RTE's side of the Story to BAI! RTE can't subsidize this "budget" Pay TV Entrant.

clln

Apogee wrote: »

One possibility is that their contract with Sky for free carriage is predicated on Sky having exclusive satellite rights to RTÉ on 28E.

Hi Apogee,surely this might be an opportunity for Ireland's Sky subscribers to play hardball with Sky and demand that the UK's FTA and FTV channels not already on the Irish EPG be made available or charge less to Ireland?

would be worth a concerted effort if Real Digital does become a reality!

The Cush

Apogee wrote: »

One possibility is that their contract with Sky for free carriage is predicated on Sky having exclusive satellite rights to RTÉ on 28E.

That would be against Sec. 77 (12) of the Broadcasting Act

(12) RTÉ , TG4 and the television service programme contractor
shall ensure that their must-offer services are at all times offered for
broadcast or re-transmission (subject to agreement as to fair, reasonable
and non-discriminatory terms of use) by means of every satellite
television service.

Apogee

The Cush wrote: »

That would be against Sec. 77 (12) of the Broadcasting Act

The contract would have been signed before that stupid Act was enacted.

The Cush

rlogue wrote: »

Don't forget that RTE would not lose too much sleep if they were off the Sky EPG as they are more interested in promoting Saorview and Saorsat.

Perhaps thats why they are not rushing to strike a deal with RD?

Sky wouldn't be happy with RTÉ promoting its services on Saorview/Saorsat exclusively. Attached is their submission the the new channels consultation.

watty

Originally Posted by rlogue
Don't forget that RTE would not lose too much sleep if they were off the Sky EPG as they are more interested in promoting Saorview and Saorsat.

Perhaps thats why they are not rushing to strike a deal with RD?

What and loose 30% of advertising/viewers? RTE were and are very happy with the Sky deal.

I can assure you that if Real Digital was offering a viable deal, RTE would sign.

Saorsat/Saorview are NOT UPC/Sky/Real competition. They are just replacements of Analogue. As far as RTE is concerned the more platforms the better.

rlogue

Watty what do you think RD were offering that was not viable from RTEs point of view? My understanding is that there was no cost to RTE and their TV channels would be carried along with EPG entries. In short, identical to the Sky deal.

galtee boy

rlogue wrote: »

There will be press announcements next week I believe with test transmissions following shortly after.

Almost 3 weeks since and no press announcement, never mind test transmissions. Another "deadline" come and gone. I would have loved Real Digital to be a success, more competition, put it up to Sky etc, but even I, as a supporter of theirs, am throwing in the towel now. I know any new start up business will have it's teething problems, but unfortunately, it looks like Real have no teeth at all !

Macy0161

Also aren't Sky still in the process of appealing the decision that OFCOM can set the price for Sky Sports 1 and Sky Sports 2?

Real Digitals problem is not only Sky, but Freesat also said they'd consider offering an additional pay option if the Sky Sports 1 & 2 decision was confirmed, in which case they'd be down to just Irish channels as a differential. And even that could be gone if adding saorsat to a Freesat receiver works.

If it happens, I'd at least consider it for the sports (would prefer if they had eurosport too though), but I'd be looking for assurance that the receiver can at least be used as a FTA receiver if it all goes belly up!

_Kaiser_

Macy0161 wrote: »

Also aren't Sky still in the process of appealing the decision that OFCOM can set the price for Sky Sports 1 and Sky Sports 2?

What's that now? Could we see a reduction? (although knowing Sky, even if they were forced to in the UK, they wouldn't reduce it here because OFCOM have no authority here)

Johnmb

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

What's that now? Could we see a reduction? (although knowing Sky, even if they were forced to in the UK, they wouldn't reduce it here because OFCOM have no authority here)

Wholesale price to rival suppliers, not retail to customers.

Macy0161

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

What's that now? Could we see a reduction? (although knowing Sky, even if they were forced to in the UK, they wouldn't reduce it here because OFCOM have no authority here)

No, as Johnmb says, it's to do with the wholesale price, and terms and conditions. As I understand it, Ofcom wanted to set the wholesale price, and won in a lower court the right to set the price. Sky are appealing that decision, but in lieu of a final court ruling are abiding by the original decision.

It was that decision that opened it up for the likes of BT Vision to offer Sky Sports as stand alone, and not as part of higher package.

basill

History is a wonderful thing. The UK had ITV digital which was a howling failure and went bust. This will be the same. Sky were also understandably sneaky and would move sports around their 4 channels in order to frustrate anyone on ITV digital. Some weeks you would see the "big matches" on the two ITV sports channels and the following week they would not be available. It didn't take long for people to realise that they were better off back with Sky getting all of the sports channels plus all of the others for very little extra.

Quite how these people manage to get funding and sell their business plan to investors is beyond me. By the time you pay Sky for their content there must be no margin left.

Tony

basill wrote: »

By the time you pay Sky for their content there must be no margin left.

Thats hardly true since there is a wholesale price so therefore there must be a margin. Cable companies make money this way so theres no reason why another operator cannot do the same.

Macy0161

basill wrote: »

By the time you pay Sky for their content there must be no margin left.

I think that's the whole point of OFCOM setting the price rather than Sky. I also believe that Sky used to insist they were part of a premium package, not just stand alone, which is also part of their Appeal.

No idea whether there's some control on Sky not shifting content to Sky Sports 3, but would assume so.

That's not to say I think Real Digital is viable alternative.

basill

Yes but companies like UPC sell bundled deals including data and telephone packages. They are able to take a hit on tv in order to profit from their other services.

In my opinion the whole system is flawed. In order to have true competition there should be no restriction on the content. By that I mean you should be able to watch football and all your favourite tv programmes on whichever provider you choose. Sky and the other tv channels should only be able to have exclusive rights to programmes that they have commissioned itself. As a consumer you then choose who delivers this content in the best way to suit your needs.

Tony

Sorry but thats just nonsense, cable companies were making money from selling on Tv long before data and telephone services were available via cable.

basill wrote: »

Yes but companies like UPC sell bundled deals including data and telephone packages. They are able to take a hit on tv in order to profit from their other services.

obliviousgrudge

Whats happening with this?

galtee boy

Absolutely nothing by the looks of it.

pa990

i think that the thread title should be amended to have the word "OUT" added at the end

rlogue

A lot is going on behind the scenes.

An encryption deal has been signed and should be announced at a major trade show coming up in a few weeks. Set top boxes have been developed and will have up to date interactive technology. Speculate if you wish on what that technology is! Certainly a key feature will be convergence.

Agreements with major broadcasters including most Irish broadcasters are in progress.

I can't give any timescales because I don't know what they will be but there's a lot happening. Once deals are signed then I will no doubt know more.

galtee boy

rlogue wrote: »

A lot is going on behind the scenes.

An encryption deal has been signed and should be announced at a major trade show coming up in a few weeks. Set top boxes have been developed and will have up to date interactive technology. Speculate if you wish on what that technology is! Certainly a key feature will be convergence.

Agreements with major broadcasters including most Irish broadcasters are in progress.

I can't give any timescales because I don't know what they will be but there's a lot happening. Once deals are signed then I will no doubt know more.

I want to believe you, I really do, but forgive me for being a "doubting Thomas" due to the track record of Real Digital's lack of ability to meet past "deadlines" and announcements etc.
"Agreements with major broadcasters including most Irish broadcasters are in progress." Does this mean RTE/TV3 are about to come on board, albeit with the requirement of encryption ?

kindalen

any news on this?