How to be an atheist parent?

Mona Olsen

My husband and I are both atheists. Our son is starting school in September in the local Catholic primary school. We have no choice in the matter, there isn't a non-denominational school in the area.
Now I know issues are going to arise, but that's for us to deal with as parents. What I'm not sure about is how to explain all of this 'God stuff' to my child and prepare him for what's to come in September. He has asked questions before that we've dealt with as best we can, but I'd like to prepare him better for the onslaught of morning prayer, religious imagery etc that he will be exposed too.
Can anyone direct me to a website, internet group or recommend any literature or books I should read on raising a good healthy non-god-fearing child??

MagicMarker

Have you spoken to the principle about excluding him from prayers/RE? That would be a good start anyway.

aquarian_fire

I'm not a religious person so I can see where you're coming from. It's really annoying having someone else's faith shoved down your throat if you don't believe in it. My advice would be to explain to your child that some people believe in God and that it's okay, just like it's okay for you to not believe in God, but I also think that it shouldn't be said to him that he can't choose to believe for himself as it is a person's own decision whether to believe in God or not, if you get what I mean? I'm sorry I have nothing to reference with. I'm pretty sure things will work out alright in the end. I do know that in my primary school as a child, that children who were raised in a different religion didn't have to take part in the prayers and stuff and instead got to colour (lucky kids), so you could always go into the school and ask if that would be possible.

Mona Olsen

Not yet, but the open day is coming up soon so I may discuss it then. I will certainly be requesting that he be excluded from regular religious classes etc.
I'm referring more to the fact that he will be exposed to Catholic teachings in some way, and he will have questions on that, plus how to deal with the questions on why he's excluded from classes, and why he's different. I'm not sure how to handle those without inadvertently instilling intolerance of religion, or worse, the feeling that he's missing out on something.

gbee

aquarian_fire wrote: »

said to him that he can't choose to believe for himself as it is a person's own decision whether to believe in God or not, .

Doesn't really work that way does it. In life we teach our children something, it goes in one ear and out the other, you'd be surprised how much they don't listen.

Anyway, after you or your partner has explained something, the child comes home and says "Teacher said ...."

Problem is the child tends to believe teacher ... even if you've told him/her the same thing.

aquarian_fire

What my parents did was they left me take part in religion and all that stuff but I was allowed make my own decision about the whole thing... worked out in the end. Most children would have questions about God and the other things brought up in school, I guess it could be treated like Santa in some ways.

oldrnwisr

Mona Olsen wrote: »

My husband and I are both atheists. Our son is starting school in September in the local Catholic primary school. We have no choice in the matter, there isn't a non-denominational school in the area.
Now I know issues are going to arise, but that's for us to deal with as parents. What I'm not sure about is how to explain all of this 'God stuff' to my child and prepare him for what's to come in September. He has asked questions before that we've dealt with as best we can, but I'd like to prepare him better for the onslaught of morning prayer, religious imagery etc that he will be exposed too.
Can anyone direct me to a website, internet group or recommend any literature or books I should read on raising a good healthy non-god-fearing child??

The best website I can recommend for you is www.teachdontpreach.ie

It has some excellent information as well as sample letters for both primary and secondary schools to opt your son out of religion.

On a personal note, I would recommend teaching your child about as many different religions as possible. When I was a teen I got a lot of books as presents and one was an encyclopedia of world mythology. The more I read the more I saw the same stories and images repeated again and again and I soon realised what a load of crap religion was.

Dades

Just make your child aware that he's likely to hear a lot of prayers and whatnot - but that he's not under any obligation to believe it or take part.

But TBH, I'd just address it as it arises. The religious indoctrination outside of RE class may amount to nothing.

Rev Hellfire

Personally I'd just ignore the whole thing, if its not actively taught at home the sort of 'indoctrination' they get in a RC school from what I can see amounts to little more than fairy tales and some bad poetry.

That way they can do all the nice little rights of passage (by rights of passage I mean money makings schemes) and the rest of it can be ignored.

dvpower

Mona Olsen wrote: »

I'm referring more to the fact that he will be exposed to Catholic teachings in some way, and he will have questions on that, plus how to deal with the questions on why he's excluded from classes, and why he's different. I'm not sure how to handle those without inadvertently instilling intolerance of religion, or worse, the feeling that he's missing out on something.

At junior infants level, the contents of the RE classes are all pretty inoffensive; basically positive messages mixed with religious imagery. I'd be more concerned about the impact of a blanket removal from RE classes than him getting messages that you don't agree with.

Truley

I know it's a while yet but your biggest issue will most likely be when Communion/ Confirmation time arises.

When I was in primary school the school had it set up so that non-Catholic children were welcome to get dressed up, attend the ceremony and attend the after party. This is a great compromise that ensures kid doesn't have to take part in the religious ceremony but at the same time isn't left out. I would discuss coming to an arrangement like this with the school.

I know you might find it hard, but if it becomes a really big issue and kid makes a deal of taking part in prayers/ceremonies then there's no shame in giving in and allowing them to do it. At the end of the day your child's happiness is priority.

Children - people in fact- place a heavy emphasis on feeling part of a group and taking part in community activites. Sometimes this means having to put up with things you think are silly or pointless. But if you're confident that these practices aren't actively damaging, it's sometimes worthwhile to put your own personal opinions on the back burner. For the sake of a peaceful life :P

I'm sure you'll be fine. Best of luck.

lynski

dvpower wrote: »

At junior infants level, the contents of the RE classes are all pretty inoffensive; basically positive messages mixed with religious imagery. I'd be more concerned about the impact of a blanket removal from RE classes than him getting messages that you don't agree with.

i have 2 non-believer friends who by christmas were already fed-up with the religous stuff from school at JL - they have not 'opted-out' their children but thought it would be manageable. however regular trips to church with no prior notice, hymns taught, prayers, visits from religous, trocaire boxes, lenten discussions, etc. so they are re-thinking.
best discuss with school the extent of involvement

dvpower

lynski wrote: »

i have 2 non-believer friends who by christmas were already fed-up with the religous stuff from school at JL - they have not 'opted-out' their children but thought it would be manageable. however regular trips to church with no prior notice, hymns taught, prayers, visits from religous, trocaire boxes, lenten discussions, etc. so they are re-thinking.
best discuss with school the extent of involvement

The best thing for the OP to do is to talk to the school about his position, but its probably too much to ask the school to come up with a tailored solution that allows his son to be included in RE in general but not to be included in some list of specific aspects if it.

At least if the OP can be kept in the loop about what's being thought, he can counter the stuff he objects to.

Mona Olsen

lynski wrote: »

i have 2 non-believer friends who by christmas were already fed-up with the religous stuff from school at JL - they have not 'opted-out' their children but thought it would be manageable. however regular trips to church with no prior notice, hymns taught, prayers, visits from religous, trocaire boxes, lenten discussions, etc. so they are re-thinking.
best discuss with school the extent of involvement

This is what I'm afraid of. He's currently in the pre-school associated with the main school. His teacher is aware of our views as I spoke to her when he started about prayers etc.
On Ash Wednesday a priest visited to give the 3-4 years olds ashes, there was no notice given, no consent asked. I was raging. His teacher took him and another Muslim boy out for it, but every other child was given ashes. So I anticipate a lot of that type of carry on. The principal of the school is a lay-person but is highly involved in religious matters. I'm not confident about her being very co-operative about our views.

cc4life

Just get over it..I doubt he'll be damaged for life by saying his prayers or having a crucifix which he will probably never look at anyway. Id be more worried about how he copes with maths, irish and english than whether he copes with a picture on the wall

Mona Olsen

dvpower wrote: »

I'd be more concerned about the impact of a blanket removal from RE classes than him getting messages that you don't agree with.

What do you mean by this? I'm also concerned about a removal in terms of making him separate from the group, or any attitude his friends might have on his perceived difference to them. There were two CofI boys in my class in school and I remember the class attitude to their lack of involvement.

MagicMarker

cc4life wrote: »

Just get over it..

How about no?

jimmycrackcorm

Mona Olsen wrote: »

On Ash Wednesday a priest visited to give the 3-4 years olds ashes, there was no notice given, no consent asked. I was raging. His teacher took him and another Muslim boy out for it, but every other child was given ashes.

Why are you raging about it when your kids was taken out in accordance with your wishes?

strobe

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why are you raging about it when your kids was taken out in accordance with your wishes?

A Catholic priest being allowed close contact with 3 year old children without their parents permission. I think even plenty of Catholics would be at the least somewhat unhappy about that. All I can say is that hopefully there was another teacher there also when the main teacher took the OP's and the Muslim's child out for it.

whydoibother?

Mona Olsen wrote: »

This is what I'm afraid of. He's currently in the pre-school associated with the main school. His teacher is aware of our views as I spoke to her when he started about prayers etc.
On Ash Wednesday a priest visited to give the 3-4 years olds ashes, there was no notice given, no consent asked. I was raging. His teacher took him and another Muslim boy out for it, but every other child was given ashes. So I anticipate a lot of that type of carry on. The principal of the school is a lay-person but is highly involved in religious matters. I'm not confident about her being very co-operative about our views.

I don't understand your anger if your child was taken out. It seems like what you are really saying is that you don't want a Catholic school engaging in Catholic activities with Catholic children. Why would notice and consent be required for them?

While I personally believe that there should be more non-denominational schools, I don't think criticizing Catholic schools for being Catholic is the way forward.

whydoibother?

strobe wrote: »

A Catholic priest being allowed close contact with 3 year old children without their parents permission. I think even plenty of Catholics would be at the least somewhat unhappy about that. All I can say is that hopefully there was another teacher there also when the main teacher took the OP's and the Muslim's child out for it.

The parents impliedly give consent when they send their kid to a Catholic school and state the childs religion as Catholic. They know what they're signing up for. They've been through it themselves. They're quite free to specify if they don't want anything.

strobe

cc4life wrote: »

Just get over it..I doubt he'll be damaged for life by saying his prayers or having a crucifix which he will probably never look at anyway.

I'm not sure about that. Unfortunately lots of children never shake off the Catholicism like they do their belief in Santa Clause. I would consider a child ending up Catholic to be damage.

strobe

whydoibother? wrote: »

The parents impliedly give consent when they send their kid to a Catholic school and state the childs religion as Catholic. They know what they're signing up for. They've been through it themselves. They're quite free to specify if they don't want anything.

They give implied consent for Catholic priests to have (what may have been unsupervised) physical contact with their 3 year old children? I doubt they do. I think the implied consent they give is for their kids to learn that we celebrate little baby Jesus' birthday at Christmas.

Bullseye1

What if your child comes home and tells you that be believes in a God?

strobe

Bullseye1 wrote: »

What if your child comes home and tells you that be believes in a God?

Exorcism? :pac:

whydoibother?

strobe wrote: »

They give implied consent for Catholic priests to have physical contact with their 3 year old children? I doubt they do.

Ashes are part of the Catholic religion. If they sign their children up for Catholic education, they know very well that it's going to involve ashes. They're Catholics themselves. If you ask for your child to be taught Catholicism, you don't expect to be consulted on normal everyday content of a Catholic lesson.

As for the point about a priest and a three year old, it would never be unsupervised.

Bullseye1

strobe wrote: »

Exorcism? :pac:

LOL.

ShooterSF

whydoibother? wrote: »

Ashes are part of the Catholic religion. If they sign their children up for Catholic education, they know very well that it's going to involve ashes. They're Catholics themselves. If you ask for your child to be taught Catholicism, you don't expect to be consulted on normal everyday content of a Catholic lesson.

As for the point about a priest and a three year old, it would never be unsupervised.

Who are catholics themselves?

And how many atheists do you know that ask for their child to be taught catholicism? I think the words "have to put up with" better fit the situation!

whydoibother?

ShooterSF wrote: »

Who are catholics themselves?

And how many atheists do you know that ask for their child to be taught catholicism? I think the words "have to put up with" better fit the situation!

I was talking specifically about the catholic children - if you read my earlier post!

ShooterSF

whydoibother? wrote: »

I was talking specifically about the catholic children - if you read my earlier post!

I see. Tell me would these children be Fianna Fail/ Labour/ Fine Gael etc. supporters?

whydoibother?

ShooterSF wrote: »

I see. Tell me would these children be Fianna Fail/ Labour/ Fine Gael etc. supporters?

I don't know what kind of children you know but I've never found a three year old strange enough to have political views.

Mona Olsen

First of all, as I said in my OP I have no wish to sign my child up to a Catholic education. I have no choice as there is no non-denominational, multi-denominational or Learn Together, school available. If there was, he'd be going there. So I resent the attitude that I have choosen to send my child to a Catholic school and should therefore shut-up and put-up.
Secondly my child is currently in PRE-school. This is housed on the grounds of the main school but is not part of it. It is a separate entity. We paid fees last year, but are availing of free childcare place this year. As you wouldn't expect a priest in a creche or Montessori school, you wouldn't expect them in a state funded pre-school.

My concern with the priest was not that he would be left unsupervised with the children. There are 2 teachers, and I should have been clearer - the two children were taken aside, but stayed in the room therefore watching the ceremony. Am I alone in thinking this is wholly inappropriate in a state funded or privately funded facility for 3 year olds??
The pre-school does not have a policy on religious education, RE doesn't exist in pre-school facilities, therefore all parents assume this stuff would never happen without expressed consent.

ShooterSF

whydoibother? wrote: »

I don't know what kind of children you know but I've never found a three year old strange enough to have political views.

Exactly. I haven't met many 3 year olds who have views on life, how that life came into existence and what happens after death yet you seemed happy to call them "catholic children".
So I figured while we're picking their supernatural beliefs for them surely we can decide their political views too.

whydoibother?

ShooterSF wrote: »

Exactly. I haven't met many 3 year olds who have views on life, how that life came into existence and what happens after death yet you seemed happy to call them "catholic children".
So I figured while we're picking their supernatural beliefs for them surely we can decide their political views too.

God's a bit simpler to understand than politics. Parents have the right to bring up children in their faith as much as parents have the right not to. This again is coming back to criticizing the practice of Catholicism as apposed to securing appropriate arrangements for Atheist children.

jimmycrackcorm

strobe wrote: »

I'm not sure about that. Unfortunately lots of children never shake off the Catholicism like they do their belief in Santa Clause. I would consider a child ending up Catholic to be damage.

LOL.

Saying a few prayers is really damaging!

strobe

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

LOL.

Saying a few prayers is really damaging!

Saying the prayers isn't my issue. Having them believe the things that Catholics believe could be damaging to them in my opinion.

(and having them say "The Leader is good, The Leader is great. We surrender our will, as of this date." over and over again is part of getting them to believe those things.)

The Mad Hatter

whydoibother? wrote: »

God's a bit simpler to understand than politics.

Tell that to the legions of theologians around the world arguing about who or what God is.

And in any case, belief in Yaweh is not the same thing as Catholicism. As I understand it, the main glut of the beliefs run something like this:

We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from Heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Now, if you can get a three-year-old child to understand and believe all that, then you can call the child Catholic, but not before.

MagicMarker

whydoibother? wrote: »

God's a bit simpler to understand than politics. Parents have the right to bring up children in their faith as much as parents have the right not to. This again is coming back to criticizing the practice of Catholicism as apposed to securing appropriate arrangements for Atheist children.

There are no atheist children, there are no catholic children, there are only children.

20goto10

Unfortunately you are in for a long battle. Every Catholic school has a duty to bring up the children as "good Catholics". Having a non believer will be seen as something that needs to be fixed. Have no doubt they will be doing everything within their power to turn your child. Have you considered sending him to a Protestant school? From what I can see they appear to be more tolerant and less forceful.

gbee

Mona Olsen wrote: »

. So I resent the attitude that I have choosen .

It is your choice. It's *just* a further commute which you've decided not to do.

MagicMarker

gbee wrote: »

It is your choice. It's *just* a further commute which you've decided not to do.

Don't be so ridiculous. You have no idea where the OP lives or how far they would have to commute.

The fúcking cheek of some people! :mad:

robindch

20goto10 wrote: »

Have you considered sending him to a Protestant school? From what I can see they appear to be more tolerant and less forceful.

Not so sure about that.

As far as I'm aware, the Educate Together movement was started by a group of southside parents who were unhappy about the arrival and policies of fundamentalist evangelical protestant headmaster who was appointed to a "protestant" school out in Dalkey. So they set up the unaligned Dalkey School Project in response, and the rest of the movement grew out of that.

Similarly, there's a guy in Sandymount I know who has a kid whose application was rejected by the local "protestant" school because the parents were "insufficiently committed to protestantism". Which isn't a problem that seems to have affected several kids, the parents of whom are friends of my brother, who began attending a certain northside protestant church several years back in order to guarantee them preferential treatment when it came to applying for school places (which they duly received).

Depends on the brand of protestantism I suppose really. Mainstream CofI - fairly relaxed; evangelical - well, whatever they want.

gbee

MagicMarker wrote: »

Don't be so ridiculous. You have no idea where the OP lives or how far they would have to commute.

No I don't or for that matter how committed the OP is either. On the one hand I'm an atheist but I'm sending my child to a catholic school, so how far would I go not to have my child subjected to this.

Well, that could depend on my pocket, how much it would cost, but you know, I know people who moved to different town for this exact reason.

Sure it's ridiculous, but the OPs answer to it being a choice was also IMO ridiculous, it is her choice ~ other circumstance may assuage this choice.

Improbable

As someone who was raised by parents who were atheists by the time I was born, I might be able to give you some information on what the experience was like for me. My parents never forced one particular view on me. They felt that the religious education syllabus was inadequate so they taught me themselves about a lot of different religions and encouraged me to make my own decisions, but perhaps most importantly, they taught me to ask LOTS of questions so that I could make informed decisions. After attending RE classes for a short while, I asked them to get me excluded from religion classes which they did. I did get some questions from my classmates about it and I just told them the truth, never got any hassle over it.

Incidentally, I grew up fairly well adjusted.

gbee

robindch wrote: »

church several years back in order to guarantee them preferential treatment when it came to applying for school places (which they duly received)..

I wanted to send my own daughter to a Protestant School rather than to a Convent School, priority would be given to existing applications of the faith. Whilst I'm not as interested today, I understand the same applies.

Just as an aside here, an educate together style school had Catholic Communion ceremonies last year. I asked as I did not understood and the reply was religion is not banned but many Catholics don't want a Catholic education for their children, even if they want to remain practising Catholics.

Denerick

I think the OP is being dramatic. So what if your child has to endure prayers at school. Its the way it is. He'll come to learn that eventually. What usually happens is that primary school teach a fluffy and meaningless version of Christianity and that by the time the child goes to secondary school he becomes cynical and hardened.

20goto10

Getting back to the OPs original question, what to tell your kid when he asks about god stuff. I would tell him it's just a story, no different to his/her fairy tale books. Teach your child to ask lots of questions and to look at the evidence. He'll quickly learn there is no evidence. It might be a good idea to brush up on your science so you can teach him some facts and why the evidence shows them to be facts.

Denerick

Denerick wrote: »

I think the OP is being dramatic. So what if your child has to endure prayers at school. Its the way it is. He'll come to learn that eventually. What usually happens is that primary school teach a fluffy and meaningless version of Christianity and that by the time the child goes to secondary school he becomes cynical and hardened.

I can't imagine you would have the same blase attitude if the children were being indoctrinated in anything else
or say "it's the way it is"

equivariant

Denerick wrote: »

I think the OP is being dramatic. So what if your child has to endure prayers at school. Its the way it is. He'll come to learn that eventually. What usually happens is that primary school teach a fluffy and meaningless version of Christianity and that by the time the child goes to secondary school he becomes cynical and hardened.

Its not being dramatic. Let me give you an example. When I met my step daughter for the first time, she was 7 and going through the typical Irish catholic primary education, even though her mother never attends mass and is not religious in any way. Anyway, having known this little girl for a few months it somehow came up in conversation that I did not believe in god. She was horrified and it took several conversations with her mother to convince her that I was not a bad person because of this.

Now this attitude did not come from her mother, so where else would she learn to think that atheists are automatically bad people? I'm sure that they are not directly told that atheism is evil. However, children are extremely impressionable and it is very easy to implant (even unintentionally) the idea that anyone who rejects religion is somehow bad.

Another thing that really bugs me about religious education in our schools is that it is such a wasted opportunity. We could be using that time, to teach our kids about ethics/morality/philosophy/how to critically evaluate arguments or opinions/etc. It is very possible to teach that kind of stuff in a fun and interesting way to young kids. Instead, we pollute their minds with morally questionable fairy stories about virgin births and the garden of eden, and all that rubbish. What a waste.

Dades

whydoibother? wrote: »

God's a bit simpler to understand than politics. Parents have the right to bring up children in their faith as much as parents have the right not to. This again is coming back to criticizing the practice of Catholicism as apposed to securing appropriate arrangements for Atheist children.

I'm with you on this one, whydoibother. I think you've got a lot of unwarranted slack, too.

To get hysterical about having a priest give a bunch of toddlers ashes like they'd been left alone with Joseph Fritzl is a bit much. Especially given the teacher actively removed the kids whose parents expressed a wish to not have their kid indoctrinated (at least not in that religion).

Yes, it galls me to see the kids being subjected to it but the onus is on the parents to ensure it doesn't happen against their will - and it this case those parents who did so had their wishes respected. There is positives to be taken from this.

ElectraX

I personally think it is wrong for Atheist parents to enforce their beliefs on their child. Just as much as you don't want Catholicism being shoved down your child's throat at school, you shouldn't be doing it with Atheism at home either.
In an ideal world, every child would go to a multi denominational school, learn about morality and get a broad overview of all religions. Clearly for you OP this is unfortunately not a choice due to geographical circumstances. But you need to let your child grow up an make their own informed decision. You need to ensure they grow up understanding that what they are learning at school is different to your beliefs, but it's ok for them to ultimately choose their own faith.
I went to a staunchly Catholic school myself, from the time I was 3 to 18.I do not consider myself Catholic now,so was clearly not left scarred or brainwashed by the experience.I went to school with plenty of people who are now committed Atheists.
Your child is in pre-school, I don't understand what detrimental affect you think the religion they are learning will have on them??Alienating them from their classmates by convincing them that what they are being taught in school is wrong will have a detrimental affect though.
They will grow up being exposed to Catholicism at school, Atheism at home, Main thing is that your child should eventually understand that everyone has different beliefs and that all faiths should be respected.