Would you?

easyeason3

If you were pregnant & had a scan which revealed that your unborn baby had serious physical & mental disabilities that would result in no quality of life for the child would you abort the baby given the option?

This question cropped up in the pub last night. Don't ask me how it came about but it really divided everyone & got fairly heated to the point that a fight was about to break out. Copious pints had been drank & no one was backing down.

If you were the father of the unborn baby would you be for or against an abortion given the above sceanario?

Oh_Noes

Oh noes.

we'llallhavetea_old

yes i would abort, i don't care how cold that is/sounds.

Spunge

miniature american flags etc

Aidric

easyeason3 wrote: »

If you were the father of the unborn baby would you be for or against an abortion given the above sceanario?

Strongly for. If the child has no prospect of a normal quality of life it would be unfair to bring them in to the world.
I have no doubt that the decision to abort would be a painful one but ultimately a correct one.

RHRN

For...
But did anyone else think was going to be about judging a pic of some random girl?

blow69

No quality of life for the child, no quality of life for the parents/siblings etc.

Definitely a lose lose situation and miserable existence for everyone.

Cheap Thrills!

Yes, i would.

Ironically, I don't agree with abortion on demand........go figure!

Sonics2k

Not only am I disappointed at this thread actual topic, but also by your really bad choice of drunken conversations in a pub.

SeaFields

I just hope to fcuk I am never put in thae position to have to make such a decision

bonerm

easyeason3 wrote: »

If you were pregnant

If I was pregnant I would definitely abort.

tricks

As the mother yes.
I'm pro-choice, although as said above I do not agree with abortion on demand. The choice should be given in certain situations though

RichieC

more importantly, would you abort if the doctors told you your child would be born with a full sized fully grown John C Reilly's head?

OutlawPete

easyeason3 wrote: »

.. serious physical & mental disabilities ..

Define "serious physical & mental disabilities".

Novella

I don't think I can answer this question. I think if I ever found myself in this situation it'd be something I'd have to think long and hard about. I mean, for selfish reasons, it'd be something I'd find incredibly difficult - ending the hopes and dreams I'd been building for the duration of the pregnancy and of course, all the what if's. Secondly, would it be incredibly awful of me to bring into the world a child who would most likely suffer?

Who am I to say the child wouldn't have a wonderful life though? I had a cousin with severe Down's Syndrome. She died 2 years ago at the age of 16, and while her life was far from that of the average kid, it was nothing to be scoffed at. She was amazing, she was unbelievable and as far as I'm concerned and the rest of the family, her life was worth it's weight in gold.

easyeason3

Sonics2k wrote: »

Not only am I disappointed at this thread actual topic, but also by your really bad choice of drunken conversations in a pub.

Thread title is misleading but that's only to lure you all in

As I said I don't know how it started but I was amazed at how some people were definately against abortion even in impossible circumstances.

Kimono-Girl

i am pro-choice, in the situation above i probably would,

in general, my partner is pro-life (he is pro-choice for others) and we now have a 2 year old. So when it came down to me making the choice he made it for me, and today i am happy he did.

philologos

How do you determine quality of life? - By the by, I don't think it would be my decision to kill someone else.

Liam Byrne

The best person I've ever known had a serious disability and I'd have been far, far worse off for not having known her in the 14 years she was around.

Just saying.

easyeason3

OutlawPete wrote: »

Define "serious physical & mental disabilities".

Child having to be tube fed, not being able to walk, talk, see, hear, not being able to recognise his/ her parents or be able to enjoy anything really.

Basically a child in a vegetative state that has no hope of improving with help.

Dave!

I'd abort it even if it were grand

lamanda

I would not abort, because I don't think suffering or disability makes life not worth living.
I don't think you can make that choice for the baby - i.e. the person on his or her way into the world- either. I think everyone deserves a chance to live, whatever their life might look like to you.

RichieC

Jakkass wrote: »

How do you determine quality of life?

will it be able to read the bible?
Will it be able to go to mass on its own?
Will the priest find it attractive?

philologos

RichieC wrote: »

will it be able to read the bible?
Will it be able to go to mass on its own?
Will the priest find it attractive?

If that's how you determine it! :pac:
Priest and mass turn me off straight away.


Personally it is much more simple. Enjoying life to me would be being able to have meaningful relationships with other people, enjoying the world around you, and giving a little back. Aside from having a fruitful relationship with God that is.

Will

I think you gotta ask yourself a serious question - if you decided to abort would it be for the good of the child or yourself?

The general populace seem to think that everyone with an intellectual disability has a terrible quality of life, that they are unhappy and have no hopes or dreams.

Wrong. Even the most profoundly disabled people have a good quality of life. It may not come up to your standards, but as long as they are happy, healthy and safe who's to say that isn't a good quality of life?

we'llallhavetea_old

lamanda wrote: »

I would not abort, because I don't think suffering or disability makes life not worth living.
I don't think you can make that choice for the baby - i.e. the person on his or her way into the world- either. I think everyone deserves a chance to live, whatever their life might look like to you.

yes but what about your own life? i have a daughter and if i found out i was pregnant with a vegetable there's no way in hell i would put my child and myself through that sort of hardship.

Aishae

thats a hard one to answer - maybe it was the emmerdale storyline that sparked the convo.
not seeing, hearing, speaking, walking - thats no life at all. you cant communicate with the world in any way.

OutlawPete

easyeason3 wrote: »

Child having to be tube fed, not being able to walk, talk, see, hear, not being able to recognise his/ her parents or be able to enjoy anything really.

Basically a child in a vegetative state that has no hope of improving with help.

Then you don't think that they should have kept Lorenzo alive?

But, his life saved many from having the same fate as he had.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1aDnGlT-Sg

easyeason3

Jakkass wrote: »

How do you determine quality of life? - By the by, I don't think it would be my decision to kill someone else.

Well I wouldn't be in a position to determine someones quality of life, I'd be going on the advice of experienced doctors & would have sought out a few different opinions before making such a serious decision.
But if it's laid out in front of you in black & white that there is no hope, whatsoever, of the unborn child having any quality of life then it's one of those things you have to accept & make a choice on as best you can.

lamanda

we'llallhavetea wrote: »

yes but what about your own life? i have a daughter and if i found out i was pregnant with a vegetable there's no way in hell i would put my child and myself through that sort of hardship.

That sort of hardship - caring for and loving another human being who is your flesh and blood - is not something I'd want to rid my life of. Even if it is hard.

But I do know what you're saying. Fingers crossed it won't happen!

pragmatic1

Yeah its a tough call. I have a nephew whos severly autistic but hes the happiest kid I know. But if the kid isnt going to have any quality of life, its not fair to have them suffer.

easyeason3

Will wrote: »

I think you gotta ask yourself a serious question - if you decided to abort would it be for the good of the child or yourself?

The general populace seem to think that everyone with an intellectual disability has a terrible quality of life, that they are unhappy and have no hopes or dreams.

Wrong. Even the most profoundly disabled people have a good quality of life. It may not come up to your standards, but as long as they are happy, healthy and safe who's to say that isn't a good quality of life?

I'm talking about both severe mental & physical disabilities with no quality of life at all. Plenty of people function very well with a disability but I'm talking about someone who would not be able to function at all.

we'llallhavetea wrote: »

yes but what about your own life? i have a daughter and if i found out i was pregnant with a vegetable there's no way in hell i would put my child and myself through that sort of hardship.

That is easily the most horrific sentence I have read on AH & that takes some beating.

carwash_2006

I don't think I could say without having been in that situation, definitely seems like one of those situations where you might think you would do one thing for sure, but might be surprised if you actually found yourself facing it.

I also think that you would have to judge each situation on it's own merit, mistakes have been made with diagnoses in-utero before now, would be awful if you decided to abort and then discovered the diagnoses was incorrect or not as severe as they thought. If the diagnoses was really obvious and reconfirmed several times then maybe, but I just couldn't say.

Cheap Thrills!

I'll be honest. I'd be too selfish to look after a special needs child. In essence they never grow up and I would be miserable caring for what would eventually be an adult with the brain of a child/baby. There would always be the worry they would outlive me and end up in some faceless home being mistreated/abused etc

I admit, I'd abort more for my own selfish reasons than the childs.

we'llallhavetea_old

lamanda wrote: »

That sort of hardship - caring for and loving another human being who is your flesh and blood - is not something I'd want to rid my life of. Even if it is hard.

But I do know what you're saying. Fingers crossed it won't happen!

well if it did, i know what i would do.

tricks

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

I'll be honest. I'd be too selfish to look after a special needs child. In essence they never grow up and I would be miserable caring for what would eventually be an adult with the brain of a child/baby. There would always be the worry they would outlive me and end up in some faceless home being mistreated/abused etc

I admit, I'd abort more for my own selfish reasons than the childs.

I agree with you on that one. I think I would just end up resenting them for something that isn't their fault, regardless of how lovely a child they may be

Will

easyeason3 wrote: »

I'm talking about both severe mental & physical disabilities with no quality of life at all. Plenty of people function very well with a disability but I'm talking about someone who would not be able to function at all.

Define no quality of life?

Not being able to talk, feed oneself, walk, use the toilet properly?

There are plenty of people in that situation and worse who still have a good quality of life and who are happy.

Coriolanus

I reserve the right to kill anyone that even momentarily inconveniences me. I'm guessing the fetus would fall into that category.

we'llallhavetea_old

easyeason3 wrote: »

That is easily the most horrific sentence I have read on AH & that takes some beating.

bit dramatic no? you were the one that said "vegetative state", dont see the harm in using the term "vegetable" tbh

Gunsfortoys

easyeason3 wrote: »

That is easily the most horrific sentence I have read on AH & that takes some beating.

but...

easyeason3 wrote: »

Basically a child in a vegetative state that has no hope of improving with help.

Somebody think of the children!

Will

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

I'll be honest. I'd be too selfish to look after a special needs child. In essence they never grow up and I would be miserable caring for what would eventually be an adult with the brain of a child/baby. There would always be the worry they would outlive me and end up in some faceless home being mistreated/abused etc

I admit, I'd abort more for my own selfish reasons than the childs.

Of course they grow up and develop, just not to the degree most of us do. A faceless home being mistreated? Go visit one, do some volunteer work and see how wrong you've got it.

!!!

A lifetime of hospitals? Really?

Mrmoe

It would be very,very rare circumstances that I would approve of aborting a child in this case. I think they would have to be in extreme pain and not live for a very long time after birth. I would be against abortion anyway and this set of circumstances doesn#t really change it.

tricks

Will wrote: »

Of course they grow up and develop, just not to the degree most of us do. A faceless home being mistreated? Go visit one, do some volunteer work and see how wrong you've got it.

There's a day care home a few doors down from my house, they may not be mistreating the kids but it's far from a happy place to spend 5 or 6 days a week.

easyeason3

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

but...



Somebody think of the children!

I didn't call the unborn child a vegetable. I was describing an answer to a question in a fair way.
Saying someone is in a vegetative state is completely different to calling them a vegetable.

Cheap Thrills!

Will wrote: »

Of course they grow up and develop, just not to the degree most of us do. A faceless home being mistreated? Go visit one, do some volunteer work and see how wrong you've got it.

No way.

And no way am I cut out for being a carer 24/7 and I don't want to either.

Will

tricks wrote: »

There's a day care home a few doors down from my house, they may not be mistreating the kids but it's far from a happy place to spend 5 or 6 days a week.

How do you know though? From walking by and possibly hearing the occasional scream? Someone could be having a bad day, or be really excited.

Honestly, before people go making wild assumptions about people with physical & intellectual disabilities of all degrees, educate yourselves even a small bit.

Will

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

No way.

And no way am I cut out for being a carer 24/7 and I don't want to either.

Let's hope you never have a kid so cos parenting regardless of complications is a 24/7 caring job.

easyeason3

we'llallhavetea wrote: »

bit dramatic no? you were the one that said "vegetative state", dont see the harm in using the term "vegetable" tbh

No not a bit dramatic.
I find the term vegetable incredibly insulting tbh. Vegetative state is simply describing how a person is. Calling someone a vegetable is very insulting.

Sorry we don't agree.

Faith

The issue is very black and white to me. There is no doubt in my mind that I would abort. Sure, it's entirely selfish and I'm adult enough to acknowledge that. I still don't care though. It's what I'd do, and nobody could convince me otherwise. To those of you who'd keep the child, I admire your strength. I couldn't do it.

tricks

Will wrote: »

How do you know though? From walking by and possibly hearing the occasional scream? Someone could be having a bad day, or be really excited.

Honestly, before people go making wild assumptions about people with physical & intellectual disabilities of all degrees, educate yourselves even a small bit.

No I've lived here my whole life, it's a small road we know the people who work there. We would be in and out, and all the houses on the road alternate in making different desserts and stuff for the kids to have on sundays. I did a few weeks there in secondary school for a community help-out thing and the kids are lovely don't get me wrong. Where did I say they weren't or that they were in some way below me?
I'm just saying you can see a lot of the kids aren't that happy. Encountering parents who are less than capable and/or willing to take care of them has made me realise that sometimes it's not fair to bring a child into that kind of world. Of course it's hard on the families, I am not saying it isn't but when I compare it to the kids I worked with in Enable Ireland the difference is staggering. A lot of the day care homes just are not up to scratch