Crash First Officer had a salary of $16,000

bobblepuzzle

Colgan Air flight 3407 crashed outside of Buffallo, USA killing around 50 people and two on the ground...

Both pilots had serious fatigue when the accident happened... the first officer was in fact working part-time in a restaurant to make ends meet. The captain earned a modest $60,000 a year, well below what a captain would earn if working for a major airline...

$16,000 A YEAR! For someone who has that responsibility... I hope Ryanair is not doing this!

bobblepuzzle

bobblepuzzle wrote: »

Colgan Air flight 3407 crashed outside of Buffallo, USA killing around 50 people and two on the ground...

Both pilots had serious fatigue when the accident happened... the first officer was in fact working part-time in a restaurant to make ends meet. The captain earned a modest $60,000 a year, well below what a captain would earn if work for a major airline...

$16,000 A YEAR! For someone who has that responsibility... I hope Ryanair is not doing this!

60k or 16k ? 16 must be a typo, surely...

linky..?

Spunge

Should have moved here and went on the dole.

bobblepuzzle

Deleted User wrote: »

60k or 16k ? 16 must be a typo, surely...

It isn't, 16k

Spore

First officer earned 16k, captain 60k

It has a wiki entry, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407

saywhatyousee

16k is about right pilots wages in america are a disgrace

m@cc@

bobblepuzzle wrote: »

Colgan Air flight 3407 crashed outside of Buffallo, USA killing around 50 people and two on the ground...

Both pilots had serious fatigue when the accident happened... the first officer was in fact working part-time in a restaurant to make ends meet. The captain earned a modest $60,000 a year, well below what a captain would earn if working for a major airline...

$16,000 A YEAR! For someone who has that responsibility... I hope Ryanair is not doing this!

To put things in context and take the sensationlism out of it......

ABC wrote:

In terms of salaries, here hasn't been a significant shift for pilots hired at regional airlines, reports jetjob.com, which tracks jobs in the aviation industry. The starting pay for these pilots is as low as $18,300 a year.

dvpower

bobblepuzzle wrote: »

It isn't, 16k

Link?

bobblepuzzle

m@cc@ wrote: »

To put things in context and take the sensationlism out of it......

What do you mean... would you like the pilot of your plane to be earning that? That is all the context you need... if you still can't figure it out (proven in the official report) don't post again

Mr. Presentable

You need people who want the work - not just the 16k

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056204943

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X48_jWtuOQ

dvpower

http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Ryanair

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]FO base[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]£21000. All sector pay for direct contract is now taxed - (20 to 30% drop in pay). Brookfield contract is now 55.5 euro/sbh till >500hrs, 70.5/sbh till >1500hrs then 78.5/sbh.[/FONT]

:eek:

dvpower

dvpower wrote: »

Link?

A quick google produces this http://www.google.com/search?q=Colgan+Air+flight+3407&rls=com.microsoft:en-ie:IE-ContextMenu&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLA_en#hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&pq=colgan%20air%20flight%203407&xhr=t&q=Colgan%20Air%20flight%203407%20%2416%2C000&cp=30&qe=Q29sZ2FuIEFpciBmbGlnaHQgMzQwNyAkMTYsMDAw&qesig=kuPMx0QWsWwQiIhT6Agn3A&pkc=AFgZ2tn-edCYuTXA0h5AXo95ooj_VbbeWZjcmRIir2tVyKW_69F8rknJZsG1apOatXzmSNJCOPnS2Botm1exjo4BtTXF5_xAzw&pf=p&sclient=psy&rls=com.microsoft:en-ie%3AIE-ContextMenu&rlz=1I7GGLA_en&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=Colgan+Air+flight+3407+%2416,000&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=e0d385de12773c20

It appears to be true, but then again Bus drivers don't get great pay either.

m@cc@

bobblepuzzle wrote: »

What do you mean... would you like the pilot of your plane to be earning that? That is all the context you need... if you still can't figure it out (proven in the official report) don't post again

I'll post whenever the fcuk I want. What does the salary of a pilot matter when thousands of flights throughout the US go without a problem despite being on the same salary? I don't see it as a contributing factor. Since when has salary being linked to competency?

bobblepuzzle

m@cc@ wrote: »

I'll post whenever the fcuk I want. What does the salary of a pilot matter when thousands of flights throughout the US go without a problem despite being on the same salary? I don't see it as a contributing factor. Since when has salary being linked to competency?

Oh so you are OK with your pilots arguing about wages, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT THIS CREW WAS DOING a few minutes before the crash, read the fcuking report then post

m@cc@

bobblepuzzle wrote: »

Oh so you are OK with your pilots arguing about wages, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT THIS CREW WAS DOING a few minutes before the crash, read the fcuking report then post

You haven't linked any report, just some banal OP.

dvpower

Deleted User wrote: »

It appears to be true, but then again Bus drivers don't get great pay either.

And they leave me closer to to my house.

bobblepuzzle

m@cc@ wrote: »

You haven't linked any report, just some banal OP.

Look mate, seriously, just go to youtube or wikipedia... or do you need me to hold your hand... as I said, come with the facts, DON'T TALK **** when you have no idea what you are talking about!!

m@cc@

bobblepuzzle wrote: »

Look mate, seriously, just go to youtube or wikipedia... or do you need me to hold your hand... as I said, come with the facts, DON'T TALK **** when you have no idea what you are talking about!!

If you can't be bothered to have some kind of reference to what your posting about in your OP, that I can't be bothered to research it.

What I will say, is that a lack of pay does not excuse incompetency? If they paid these people more, would it eradicate the incompetency. From what I've read, they paid a little less than the going rate.

bobblepuzzle

m@cc@ wrote: »

If you can't be bothered to have some kind of reference to what your posting about in your OP, that I can't be bothered to research it.

What I will say, is that a lack of pay does not excuse incompetency? If they paid these people more, would it eradicate the incompetency. From what I've read, they paid a little less than the going rate.

Up to yourself mate, you havn't researched it yet you spout ****e about salary not being a factor when officially it was... just gwan out of that!

Rabies

bobblepuzzle wrote: »

What do you mean... would you like the pilot of your plane to be earning that? That is all the context you need... if you still can't figure it out (proven in the official report) don't post again

I didn't realize we had a new mod in training. AC never sent a memo around.
Because you still have your training wheels on, can you refrain from telling peope when can/cannot post here.

Apart from that, gave a nice day and stop bitch fighting with posters or I'll send this thread to The Thunderdome

Senna

Pay and ability to do that job are not linked. The harder the job usually the more money they earn. But if people are willing to work for less, private companies will pay less.

bobblepuzzle

Rabies wrote: »

I didn't realize we had a new mod in training. AC never sent a memo around.
Because you still have your training wheels on, can you refrain from telling peope when can/cannot post here.

Apart from that, gave a nice day and stop bitch fighting with posters or I'll send this thread to The Thunderdome

Well he posted here that he can "post whatever the fcuk he likes". Go on, warn him....

dvpower

bobblepuzzle wrote: »

Up to yourself mate, you havn't researched it yet you spout ****e about salary not being a factor when officially it was... just gwan out of that!

Can you link to the NTSB finding on that? I've only read the executive summary and it makes no mention.

Rabies

bobblepuzzle wrote: »

Well he posted here that he can "post whatever the fcuk he likes". Go on, warn him....

I only earn $16k a year.
I can post what I want.

bobblepuzzle

Rabies wrote: »

I only earn $16k a year.
I can post what I want.

Good man

m@cc@

bobblepuzzle wrote: »

Well he posted here that he can "post whatever the fcuk he likes". Go on, warn him....

Just to make it clear, I'll post whatever the fcuk I like, within the realms of the charter. Not to the dictation of whether another poster likes what I post or not.

bobblepuzzle

m@cc@ wrote: »

Just to make it clear, I'll post whatever the fcuk I like, within the realms of the charter. Not to the dictation of whether another poster likes what I post or not.

Your post was stupid and void of facts... if you are going to post on something you do not know about, at least do some research

m@cc@

bobblepuzzle wrote: »

Your post was stupid and void of facts... if you are going to post on something you do not know about, at least do some research

You haven't posted any 'facts' here. Links or GTFO.

jam_mac_jam

m@cc@ wrote: »

Since when has salary being linked to competency?

Is that not the point? are we living in the USSR?

bobblepuzzle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407 there you go, you enjoy that now

Rabies

bobblepuzzle wrote: »

Well he posted here that he can "post whatever the fcuk he likes". Go on, warn him....

His comment was in retaliation to yours. Hence the tone of it.
The rest of his posts are fine.

dvpower

bobblepuzzle wrote: »

Up to yourself mate, you havn't researched it yet you spout ****e about salary not being a factor when officially it was... just gwan out of that!

bobblepuzzle wrote: »

Your post was stupid and void of facts... if you are going to post on something you do not know about, at least do some research

Can you post the research you've done that says that salary was officially a factor in the crash?

m@cc@

bobblepuzzle wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407 there you go, you enjoy that now

You know more about this than me, so you can save us all time. Where is the reference to the staff's salary?

bobblepuzzle

m@cc@ wrote: »

You know more about this than me, so you can save us all time. Where is the reference to the staff's salary?

Federal investigators hammered Colgan Air executives about the pay of their pilots — in Shaw's case, she made between $16,000 and $20,000 a year

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,520028,00.html

This is also in the final NTSB report which I can't find... but I will

Samba

Train wreck of a thread due at platform boards.ie at approximately....now.

dvpower

^^
Well. That's a fox news report, so I'm convinced.

m@cc@

bobblepuzzle wrote: »

Federal investigators hammered Colgan Air executives about the pay of their pilots — in Shaw's case, she made between $16,000 and $20,000 a year

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,520028,00.html

This is also in the final NTSB report which I can't find... but I will

Straining to do some explaining.

dvpower

bobblepuzzle wrote: »

This is also in the final NTSB report which I can't find... but I will

Here's the entire set of evidence. Happy hunting.
http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation/DCA09MA027/default.htm

the_syco

m@cc@ wrote: »

What does the salary of a pilot matter when thousands of flights throughout the US go without a problem despite being on the same salary? I don't see it as a contributing factor. Since when has salary being linked to competency?

A lot of people fly for the love of the job. Unfortunately, "love of the job" doesn't pay your wages, and thus you'll have to work elsewhere as well to pay bills. For a job that entails keeping tin can with me in it, in the air, I'd want the pilot and co-pilot to be alert.

=-=

Read http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/etc/script.html from the section that read:

MILES O'BRIEN: [voice-over] There were other warnings about the safety culture at Colgan in 2008. In this NTSB file, we found a case that alarmed the FAA. It involved the actions of a Colgan captain on a flight out of New York City. The first officer on the flight was Ben Coats. It was Coats's job to calculate the weight limit on the flight, and his calculations showed the plane would be too heavy to fly.

[on camera] And you say to the captain, "Captain, we're even more overweight than we thought." What did he say?

BEN COATS, Colgan pilot, 2007-'08: Well, he said, "Well, why don't we just count three of those adults as children."

...to the bottom. It shows just how fucked up the airline was. They defended a pilot, who they called a model pilot, who fixed the planes manifesto so that it would appear within the max weight.

=-=

From final report: http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2010/AAR1001.pdf

During the previous 14 months, the first officer lived in Phoenix (when hired by the company), then expected to be based in Houston before being sent to Norfolk, Virginia and then at the time of the accident, was based in Newark, New Jersey but lived in Seattle, Washington. Flight crew salaries are also problematic. It is financially challenging for pilots, whether earning $60,000 or $16,000, to regularly relocate their families or hold down multiple residences

They acknowledge that earning lots or little still means that moving around constantly will not be easy.

=-=

So you are earning a small amount, constantly moving house, sometimes having to stay at a "crash pad" (search for reference to them in the first link) as they hadn't enough money to stay in a hotel, never mind having enough money to pay the bills in the house which you do "live" in.

If you want someone alert, at least pay them enough so that they don't have to double job.

donkey balls

A ryanair first officer starts off on about 60e per block hour(flying time) this goes up with the more hours he flies upto 85e after 1500hrs of flying A captain gets about 138e plus extra pay if he instructs the cadets.
The pay scales in the USA for regional carriers are crap one of the instructers at the school I flew at was one but got laid off due to the recession,And yes it's in around the $20k mark the likes of Aer Arran pay around 30k euro for somone starting off with gradual increases upto about 80k for a captain.
With pay being so low in the USA alot of these guys will have other jobs to pay off their loans of about 100k euro,It's known that some accidents/incidents are caused by pilot fatigue so yes I would much prefer a professional flight crew to be rested and not have to break there balls doing two jobs because their salary is crap

dvpower

the_syco wrote: »

They acknowledge that earning lots or little still means that moving around constantly will not be easy.

The report highlights commuting to work (leading to fatigue) as a problem, not pay.

At the time of the accident both pilots were living in Seattle and commuting to New Jersey for work. That's the other side of the country!!

the_syco wrote: »

If you want someone alert, at least pay them enough so that they don't have to double job.

That's fair enough, but double jobbing wasn't found to be a factor in the crash.