Inclusivity according to sinn fein

junder

For years the saint patricks day parade in downpatrick has been a shining example of cross community inclusiveness, all political symbols were banned and the day was very much a families day out. Both Protestant and catholic schools and youth clubs would take part in the parade, I have also taken part in the downpatricks saint patricks day parade when I used to volunter for glebe house. However this year sinn fein have decided to in one foul swoop undo those years of cross community work.





Unionists picketed a Down District Council meeting after Sinn Féin councillor Eamonn Mac Con Midhe said he planned to lead Thursday's march carrying the flag.

Speaking to UTV, Mr Mac Con Midhe says he still plans to do so: "I'll be there on Thursday with my tricolour marching down the street with the councillors as I said I would be.

"Very little unionist councillors have ever participated in the parade, so why are they telling people to stay away when they never came themselves?"

Twenty-five years ago, the council made the decision to give out red and white St Patrick's flags to those attending the annual celebrations

In recent times some concerns have been expressed behind closed council doors about the flag's perceived Protestant links.

But this very public challenge to the council's official stance has sparked outrage in unionist circles, who said it could harm community relations.

"What he has done is driven a wedge between the two communities, tried to divide the two communities," local DUP man William Walker told UTV.

"Now if people turn up at the parade with the tricolour he's succeeded at that."

Meanwhile the council's SDLP chairman Eamonn O'Neill said it dishonours the flag to use it as a "taunt".

"I'm very proud of the flag, but it stands for peace between the two traditions on the island," he told UTV.

"In fact, that's the honourable nature of the flag and I would never dishonour it by using it as a taunt."

In a statement from Sinn Féin MLA Willie Clarke, the party clarified its position on the flying of flags, saying the issue has been "blown out of all proportion".

"The display of our national flag on St Patrick's Day is a legitimate position and something I would robustly defend," he said.

"As political representatives we have an obligation to represent the views of our constituents. I also recognise the St Patrick's Day event as an occasion everyone should Unionists picketed a Down District Council meeting after Sinn Féin councillor Eamonn Mac Con Midhe said he planned to lead Thursday's march carrying the flag.

Speaking to UTV, Mr Mac Con Midhe says he still plans to do so: "I'll be there on Thursday with my tricolour marching down the street with the councillors as I said I would be.

"Very little unionist councillors have ever participated in the parade, so why are they telling people to stay away when they never came themselves?"

Twenty-five years ago, the council made the decision to give out red and white St Patrick's flags to those attending the annual celebrations

In recent times some concerns have been expressed behind closed council doors about the flag's perceived Protestant links.

But this very public challenge to the council's official stance has sparked outrage in unionist circles, who said it could harm community relations.

"What he has done is driven a wedge between the two communities, tried to divide the two communities," local DUP man William Walker told UTV.

"Now if people turn up at the parade with the tricolour he's succeeded at that."

Meanwhile the council's SDLP chairman Eamonn O'Neill said it dishonours the flag to use it as a "taunt".

"I'm very proud of the flag, but it stands for peace between the two traditions on the island," he told UTV.

"In fact, that's the honourable nature of the flag and I would never dishonour it by using it as a taunt."

In a statement from Sinn Féin MLA Willie Clarke, the party clarified its position on the flying of flags, saying the issue has been "blown out of all proportion".

"The display of our national flag on St Patrick's Day is a legitimate position and something I would robustly defend," he said.

"As political representatives we have an obligation to represent the views of our constituents. I also recognise the St Patrick's Day event as an occasion everyone should share and enjoy.

"It is unfortunate that the debate around this issue has been blown out of all proportion and I believe that all of us need to be sensitive to causing offence but also mature enough to debate these issues without inflaming passions."

http://www.u.tv/News/Anger-over-SF-t...e-4fed20f23e3b


Now several schools have pulled out of the parade because of this political stunt.


Seven primary schools have pulled out of St Patrick's Day celebrations in Downpatrick on Thursday.

It follows concerns about the flying of the tricolour by a Sinn Fein councillor during a parade in the town.

The schools are in Bangor, Newtownards, Ballynahinch and Drumaness.

Speaking to UTV, Andrew Gibson from the St Patrick's Centre - which was involved in the visit - said teachers feel there may be a risk to the children.



"I have spoken to Sinn Fein about this and they have said it is a one flag, one man situation," he told U105's Frank Mitchell Show.

"They are saying the press have blown this out of all proportion.

"I think the parade has become a political talking point and that is totally against what the project was about," he said.

http://www.u.tv/News/Schools-pull-ou...1-71b8528166b4


Is this the inclusiveness sinn fein always talk about

karma_

See flags, cause so much trouble, we should just ban the lot of them to be quite honest. At the end of the day they are only bits of cloth.

Meeoow

What's wrong with carrying a Tricolour on St. Patricks Day?
A red and white flag signifies a division in this fair country, a bit like the OP's location.

sollar

Is there not tricolours at the new york parade, the bejing, moscow, london parade..... why not downpatrick.

wee truck big driver

sollar wrote: »

Is there not tricolours at the new york parade, the bejing, moscow, london parade..... why not downpatrick.

because its ireland how dare they fly an irish flag in ireland

junder

Yer what's wrong with carrying a tricolour, who cares if it alienates people from what used to be a non political event

wee truck big driver

junder wrote: »

Yer what's wrong with carrying a tricolour, who cares if it alienates people from what used to be a non political event

im guesing nobody except you

sollar

junder wrote: »

Yer what's wrong with carrying a tricolour, who cares if it alienates people from what used to be a non political event

One side is expected to be o-so-considerate of the other but come the 12th anything goes.

junder

wee truck big driver wrote: »

im guesing nobody except you

Me, the several schools that have already pulled out dispite the months of work they have already put in.

junder

sollar wrote: »

One side is expected to be o-so-considerate of the other but come the 12th anything goes.

And come tomorrow Belfast city centre will be awash with tricolours and the students in the holylands will have thier annual saint patricks day celebration / riot. However the point you seem to be missing or ignoring is that the downpatricks saint patricks day parade was NON POLITICAL and CROSS COMMUNITY were the only flag that was allowed was the saint patricks flag, no tricolours and no union flags

wee truck big driver

junder wrote: »

Me, the several schools that have already pulled out dispite the months of work they have already put in.

st patrick is the patron saint of ireland the flag of ireland which includes the orange to represent the protestants. all over the united kingdom there will be marches where the tricolour will be flown people will celebrate and enjoy themselves. strange that the only one part of the u.k has a problem even more strange that it is in ireland or at least it would be if we werent already aware of how stubborn and bigoted the unionist community is.

wee truck big driver

it should also be noted for the unionist community how there orange parades are viewed around the world and compare that with the way st patricks day parades are celebrated around the world

junder

wee truck big driver wrote: »

st patrick is the patron saint of ireland the flag of ireland which includes the orange to represent the protestants. all over the united kingdom there will be marches where the tricolour will be flown people will celebrate and enjoy themselves. strange that the only one part of the u.k has a problem even more strange that it is in ireland or at least it would be if we werent already aware of how stubborn and bigoted the unionist community is.

So you totally comfortable that a NON-POLITICAL, CROSS-COMMUNITY has been turned into a political, single community parade which alienates the unionist community tha used to take part.
Note that I am commenting on the downpatrick parade which was non political and not the Belfast saint patricks day parade which has always been a republican fest.

karma_

junder wrote: »

So you totally comfortable that a NON-POLITICAL, CROSS-COMMUNITY has been turned into a political, single community parade which alienates the unionist community tha used to take part.
Note that I am commenting on the downpatrick parade which was non political and not the Belfast saint patricks day parade which has always been a republican fest.

Are you totally comfortable with the 3500 orange parades per annum which alienates nationalists?

In fairness, there's only one guy making an issue of this, do nationalists have to be the bogey men every time an eijet pops up?

Fratton Fred

wee truck big driver wrote: »

st patrick is the patron saint of ireland the flag of ireland which includes the orange to represent the protestants. all over the united kingdom there will be marches where the tricolour will be flown people will celebrate and enjoy themselves. strange that the only one part of the u.k has a problem even more strange that it is in ireland or at least it would be if we werent already aware of how stubborn and bigoted the unionist community is.

Is the tricolour not the flag of the Republic of Ireland. Surely an all Irish flag would more likely be the harp or st Patrick's cross?

dlofnep

Would Unionists be equally willing to not fly Union Jacks on July the 12th? No, you wouldn't. So pardon me while I go vomit at all this fake-outrage about nationalists flying a tricolour on the national day of Ireland.

This is tolerance and inclusiveness from Unionists.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

Would Unionists be equally willing to not fly Union Jacks on July the 12th? No, you wouldn't. So pardon me while I go vomit at all this fake-outrage about nationalists flying a tricolour on the national day of Ireland.

This is tolerance and inclusiveness from Unionists.

I don't disagree with you, but I've always considered St Patrick's day to be above all that ****. It's a shame that a political party is hijacking this parade for what seems to nothing more than a publicity stunt.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I don't disagree with you, but I've always considered St Patrick's day to be above all that ****. It's a shame that a political party is hijacking this parade for what seems to nothing more than a publicity stunt.

So Nationalists are expected to be "above all that shíte" - and pander to Unionists at every call.. while Unionists get a free pass from you? No party is hijacking the parade.

I have a friend in Downpatrick and she is uttered disgusted with the unionist outrage on this, considering that they march routinely flying the union jack in the faces of nationalists.

Downpatrick is town with an overwhelmingly nationalist population. And yet, they can't fly their flag on their national holiday? Come off it. If this was some town with a strong Unionist population, you'd be defending their right to fly the Union flag on July 12th.

To be fair it does look like a political stunt or at the very least inconsiderate given no tricolours were used at that parade before and that unionists were always involved.

dlofnep

Deleted User wrote: »

To be fair it does look like a political stunt or at the very least inconsiderate given no tricolours were used at that parade before and that unionists were always involved.

It's not a political stunt. He has every right to fly the Irish flag on St. Patricks day. I'm amazed at how easily offended unionists are - especially in this case, where the town has a strong nationalist base.

If I can be sure of one thing, it's that we won't see outrage like this on the 12th when tricolours are burnt on bonfires, and while trawls of people march through towns and cities across the north with union jacks and loyalist paramilitary banners.

Of course he has every right.
But is it the right thing to do from a sensitivity point of view?

You wouldn't expect 2 homosexuals to go to mass,stop half way up the aisle for communion and slap the gob into one another would you?

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

So Nationalists are expected to be "above all that shíte" - and pander to Unionists at every call.. while Unionists get a free pass from you? No party is hijacking the parade.

I have a friend in Downpatrick and she is uttered disgusted with the unionist outrage on this, considering that they march routinely flying the union jack in the faces of nationalists.

Downpatrick is town with an overwhelmingly nationalist population. And yet, they can't fly their flag on their national holiday? Come off it. If this was some town with a strong Unionist population, you'd be defending their right to fly the Union flag on July 12th.

Not at all, I think the 12th should be an inclusive event as well. It does seem though that the town had this one worked out and would be a good day for all, until some media whore ruins it.

Deedsie

Deleted User wrote: »

You wouldn't expect 2 homosexuals to go to mass,stop half way up the aisle for communion and slap the gob into one another would you?

ah, I dont think anyone has ever expected that to happen anywhere really.

dlofnep

Deleted User wrote: »

Of course he has every right.
But is it the right thing to do from a sensitivity point of view?

Sensitivities? Come off it. When I see unionists respect nationalist sensitivities, then we can talk. This is absolute pandering to unionists. If someone created this thread on the 12th, discussing Unionists marching through Downpatrick with Union Jacks - nationalists would be told to get over it.

I'll be sure to pop up to Downpatrick on the 12th and we'll see how much consideration is given.

Nationalists have to live under a union jack across the north - and yet when it comes to them displaying their flag, they are accused of being insensitive. Where was all this consideration of sensitivities before this parade by Unionists?

It's not the principle of a cross-community parade I am annoyed with - it's the utter hypocrisy of unionists to complain about it, when you can be sure - they'd never defend nationalists if they complained about union jacks been flown.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Not at all, I think the 12th should be an inclusive event as well. I

Then, why isn't it?

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

It's not a political stunt. He has every right to fly the Irish flag on St. Patricks day. I'm amazed at how easily offended unionists are - especially in this case, where the town has a strong nationalist base.

If I can be sure of one thing, it's that we won't see outrage like this on the 12th when tricolours are burnt on bonfires, and while trawls of people march through towns and cities across the north with union jacks and loyalist paramilitary banners.

No, but we will see people claiming that the marches are deliberately provocative.

To be honest, it makes me question sinn fein's commitment to peace. Conflict, division and provocation are in their best interest are they not?

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

Then, why isn't it?

I wish I knew. I wish it was.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I wish I knew. I wish it was.

I'll tell you why it isn't - Because Unionists only wish to see their sensitivities respected.

If this was a common thing across the north, where unionists didn't fly union jacks on the 12th, and nationalists didn't fly tricolours on St. Patricks day - then we could accuse one side of being insensitive.

However - given that this isn't the case - I fail to see how anyone is being insensitive when you can be absolutely sure that there will be union jacks towed on the 12th from the very same people who are complaining about the tricolour being an insensitive symbol on the national day of IRELAND in a town that has an almost 90% nationalist population.

dlofnep

dlofnep wrote: »

Sensitivities? Come off it. When I see unionists respect nationalist sensitivities, then we can talk. This is absolute pandering to unionists. If someone created this thread on the 12th, discussing Unionists marching through Downpatrick with Union Jacks - nationalists would be told to get over it.

I'll be sure to pop up to Downpatrick on the 12th and we'll see how much consideration is given.

Nationalists have to live under a union jack across the north - and yet when it comes to them displaying their flag, they are accused of being insensitive. Where was all this consideration of sensitivities before this parade by Unionists?

It's not the principle of a cross-community parade I am annoyed with - it's the utter hypocrisy of unionists to complain about it, when you can be sure - they'd never defend nationalists if they complained about union jacks been flown.

So you're admitting this is an eye for an eye?
That would smack of two things.
Extremely regressive ie non progressive and frankly showing a lack of willingness to show some kind of moral high ground or a willingness to move on leaving the unionists to carry on unchanged and stuck in the past.

It's been pointed out that this parade has been deliberately changed by Sinn Féin meaning some [who cannot march behind a tricolour] to have to bow out and who otherwise were included in this particular one.

What goes on with the 12th always did.No body suddenly decided to exclude nationalists,they always were and now this parade is to be used as an eye for an eye?

Why am I not surprised?

dlofnep

It's not an eye for an eye - it's a person who wishes to express himself on the national holiday of Ireland. If someone doesn't want to march behind him, they only have to walk back 20 feet and they won't be marching next to the flag.

The reality is, Downpatrick is a nationalist town - and anyone I've spoken to from there feel that they should be able to fly the tricolour on St. Patricks day. So when we see the very same people that are complaining about this on the 12th flying union jacks in Downpatrick - we can accuse them of hypocrisy, right?

Fratton Fred

Why this year? Is this part of sinn fein's agenda of keeping in the headlines?

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why this year? Is this part of sinn fein's agenda of keeping in the headlines?

A nationalist wants to fly the Irish flag on the national holiday of Ireland. there obviously must be an agenda there!

I'll look forward to seeing you post on the 12th F. Fred about the unionist agenda in Downpatrick, and their insensitive nature towards nationalists by flying the Union Jack. In the interests of fairness and balance of course.

dlofnep

dlofnep wrote: »

It's not an eye for an eye - it's a person who wishes to express himself on the national holiday of Ireland. If someone doesn't want to march behind him, they only have to walk back 20 feet and they won't be marching next to the flag.

The reality is, Downpatrick is a nationalist town - and anyone I've spoken to from there feel that they should be able to fly the tricolour on St. Patricks day. So when we see the very same people that are complaining about this on the 12th flying union jacks in Downpatrick - we can accuse them of hypocrisy, right?

It is an eye for an eye honestly.
Who gives a toss about the union jack and whether unionists on the 12th wear it on their underpants... and where it has always flown.
Fact of the matter here is, theres been a Sinn Féin driven change to this parade.

Anyone using eyes for their proper reason can see through it as being inflammatory for the crack like.
Pathetic really and quite sectarian and totally unnecessary.
No moving on eh?

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

A nationalist wants to fly the Irish flag on the national holiday of Ireland. there obviously must be an agenda there!

I'll look forward to seeing you post on the 12th F. Fred about the unionist agenda in Downpatrick, and their insensitive nature towards nationalists by flying the Union Jack. In the interests of fairness and balance of course.

conversely, I look forward to your posts supporting them.

karma_

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I wish I knew. I wish it was.

The 12th of July will never ever be inclusive, the whole point about the 12th is to demonstrate the defeat of Catholicism (nationalism) and the unionist ascendency over them. How could anyone ever believe this commemoration could ever be inclusive for nationalists?

junder

karma_ wrote: »

The 12th of July will never ever be inclusive, the whole point about the 12th is to demonstrate the defeat of Catholicism (nationalism) and the unionist ascendency over them. How could anyone ever believe this commemoration could ever be inclusive for nationalists?

Erm, no it's not

Fratton Fred

karma_ wrote: »

The 12th of July will never ever be inclusive, the whole point about the 12th is to demonstrate the defeat of Catholicism (nationalism) and the unionist ascendency over them. How could anyone ever believe this commemoration could ever be inclusive for nationalists?

5th November celebrations used to be anti catholic and involve burning an effigy of the pope.

They are now just an excuse to let off fireworks and build a bonfire.

dlofnep

junder wrote: »

Erm, no it's not

So presumably, the next 12th march will remove all union jacks in an attempt to be inclusive, right?

Wolfe Tone

Im aghast at the hypocrisy of the OP, a self confessed Orangeman I believe?

bmaxi

Unionists, rightly or wrongly, associate the tricolor with the Provos so I don't see why it comes as a surprise to anybody that they might have an objection to marching behind it. I'm sure most people here in the Republic would not look kindly on the St. Patrick's day parade being led by a Union Jack.
The whole peace process has to be based on compromise, I doubt if the councillor involved was under any illusions as to what Unionist reaction would be, so you have to ask, why do it?
I've heard all the "entitlement" arguments and they have some validity but really, like the Royal Mail postbags at the election, it seems to be just more SF **** stirring.
Why are they driving a wedge between the communities? Is this just some guy looking to get an Assembly seat who doesn't give a fcuk about the long term effect.
I don't know much about Downpatrick but it seems to me that a community that cooperates and identifies together in this event, can't be as polarised as some posters on here would suggest.

Max Power1

sollar wrote: »

One side is expected to be o-so-considerate of the other but come the 12th anything goes.

+1

Get rid of all the orange BS then they can reconsider the flags.

Until that point, not a bullet flag, not an ounce inch.

karma_

Fratton Fred wrote: »

5th November celebrations used to be anti catholic and involve burning an effigy of the pope.

They are now just an excuse to let off fireworks and build a bonfire.

There's a bit of a difference now Fred, besides, English people I have always found do not define themselves by the 5th of November.

dlofnep

bmaxi wrote: »

I don't know much about Downpatrick but it seems to me that a community that cooperates and identifies together in this event, can't be as polarised as some posters on here would suggest.

I do - It's a town with a strong nationalist population who actually don't have any qualms about flying a tricolour and are upset with Unionists trying to dictate what they can or cannot do on the national holiday of Ireland, in one of the strongest nationalist populated towns in the north.

This fake-outrage comes from a poster who is a known member of the apprentice boys - a group that would be happy to forget about "inclusivity" come July the 12th in Downpatrick, and indeed across the north. It's the hypocrisy of it all that people are highlighting.



^^ They are upset because an Irish nationalist wishes to fly a tricolour of the national day of Ireland? Right..

dlofnep

dlofnep wrote:

This fake-outrage comes from a poster who is a known member of the apprentice boys

Fake outrage or genuinely held position? Who cares if the op is an apprentice boy...thats personalising the debate.
No one mentioned your position on this being a member of Sinn Féin or a mod here of a republican forum.
Why did no one mention it? because it should be irrelevant who or what we are.
All that should matter here are opinions held and our entitlement to them.


It's the optics with the parade change here that are wrong.
A change made for the sake of being tribal.
Wrong wrong wrong.
No sense at all of moving on which I find sad.

Jaap

I think it is awful that the kids of 7 primary schools have put weeks of effort in to being part of the parade...and now because of one man's actions to unsettle the cross community event the children's day out may have been ruined.
How are teachers going to explain the decision of withdrawing to the pupils...I thought Northern Ireland was supposed to have moved on!
Sinn Fein / IRA may have stopped killing and bombing people...but I think they still have serious issues with trying to share Northern Ireland with people who oppose republicanism.

junder

Typical republican myopia again. As I pointed Already Belfast city centre will be awash with tricolours today, the bars in Belfast city centre will be full of drunk people wearing silly tricolour hats, I am not commenting on the Belfast saint patricks day parade as that's the way it has always been. The point that is being ignored again was that the saint patricks in downpatrick was a neutral parade all political flags were banned that ment the union flag as well as the tricolour. The 12th has always been a celebration of unionism it has never pretended to anything else, was no comparison with the non political parade that was in downpatrick, now with the carrying of the the tricolour the downpatrick is a political event.
Moreover it seems that saint Patrick can only be the patron saint of republicans
And nationalists.

dlofnep

So junder - Why are union flags not banned on the 12th in Downpatrick? I think it's perfectly valid to highlight the hypocrisy in all of this. Your group takes no consideration in the feelings of nationalists when you parade around every town and city in the north with Union Jacks.

dlofnep

Deleted User wrote: »

Fake outrage or genuinely held position?

I'm sure he genuinely doesn't want to see tricolours, anywhere in the north. That doesn't change the fact that it's hypocritical, considering the Apprentice Boys march through nationalist areas all the time with Union Jacks and don't ever consider their sensitivities. Like I said, I have a few friends living in Downpatrick and they have no problems with the tricolour being flown on St. Patricks day and feel that this is a huge fuss about nothing.

Fratton Fred

karma_ wrote: »

There's a bit of a difference now Fred, besides, English people I have always found do not define themselves by the 5th of November.

Not now, no, but it was a very serious anti catholic show of nationalism.

Things can and do change, they just need forward thinking people, like the organisers of the Downpatrick parade.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Things can and do change, they just need forward thinking people, like the organisers of the Downpatrick parade.

Forward thinking only by one half of the community. When it comes around to the 12th, the other half of the community is only all too happy to forget about "forward thinking" and wave union jacks. You don't see the hypocrisy in this?

karma_

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Not now, no, but it was a very serious anti catholic show of nationalism.

Things can and do change, they just need forward thinking people, like the organisers of the Downpatrick parade.

That's the point, it's not the organisers, it's one guy who is making a political point and carrying a flag. However, it's set upon as a gilt edged opportunity to make a polar political expression. The pathetic thing is not the flags, it's the people who jump at any chance to get one over the other side, and believe me there are two playing this particular game in Downpatrick.