Henry de Bromhead

Morgans

Will be serving dollops of humble pie to anyone who wishes to get in line for the next week.

Great performance.

UrbanSea

Just got mine there.
If it were up to me,I would have had him in the Ryanair. However,I did say this morning on here that he'd be a big danger(I'd CCB myself each way)

mike65

Up the Deise etc!

mdwexford

He trained him awful this season, tried to turn a Champion Chaser into a 3miler, lol at how bad he is.

Nulty

He could have had a great crack at the King George in fairness

Morgans

Yeah. Given that he has more winners than nicholls and Henderson combined this year. I think he is doing fine. Imagine if he had their ammunition. Don't be refusing humble pie. If sizing Europe was ruined in the attempt to go for the king George, there might be some point, but he has got his one super horse to win back to back in cheltenham. One of Irelands best

handsomecake

joke of a campaign, luck rather then design

Morgans

Yeah. Luck. Some will still say that he was an idiot for not going for the Ryanair with the horse and that he was destroying an Arkle winner. Maybe he should have taken the Golden Silver route of winning when he could on the build up to the big day. Its ok when Nicholls tries to win the King George with Azertyuiop and Le Roi Miguel but de Bromhead is a fool for doing so. I would like to see him in the King George next year and not the Dial A Bet chase at leopardstown. It costs nothing to give some credit to the man.

Lapin

Aye, credit where its due lads.

Well done the de Bromhead yard.

mike65

Also probably meant the price was right

mdwexford

Morgans wrote: »

Yeah. Given that he has more winners than nicholls and Henderson combined this year. I think he is doing fine. Imagine if he had their ammunition. Don't be refusing humble pie. If sizing Europe was ruined in the attempt to go for the king George, there might be some point, but he has got his one super horse to win back to back in cheltenham. One of Irelands best

Wow eh sample size, two races doesnt prove much.

Humble pie, what are you talking about, i said all along he could win the race.

Lol at being one of Irelands best.

Morgans wrote: »

Yeah. Luck. Some will still say that he was an idiot for not going for the Ryanair with the horse and that he was destroying an Arkle winner. Maybe he should have taken the Golden Silver route of winning when he could on the build up to the big day. Its ok when Nicholls tries to win the King George with Azertyuiop and Le Roi Miguel but de Bromhead is a fool for doing so. I would like to see him in the King George next year and not the Dial A Bet chase at leopardstown. It costs nothing to give some credit to the man.

Are you Henry De Bromhead??

Starting an Arkle winner over 3 miles first time out this year was insane.

First time ive seen you post like this.

Nulty

I'd like to see him in the King George too but if Long Run catches a cold Kempes will be winning that next year I'm afraid.

Morgans

mdwexford wrote: »

Wow eh sample size, two races doesnt prove much.

Humble pie, what are you talking about, i said all along he could win the race.

Lol at being one of Irelands best.



Are you Henry De Bromhead??

Starting an Arkle winner over 3 miles first time out this year was insane.

First time ive seen you post like this.

Yet some would have thought going for the Gold Cup with the Arkle runner up was insane also. But you were encouraging Henrietta Knight to do exactly that. Kauto Star went from favourite in the Champion Chase and Tingle Creek winner to running in 3m chases. Why is Henry so wrong to go for the King George? Its expected that Captain Chris is going to aim for the King George - Hobbs also a fool.

Its humble pie in that Henry de Bromhead clearly knows what he is doing yet plenty of internet posters are ready to assume they know better. Its interesting to hear Lynch say after that the stamina work has helped him settle better

If I had a horse that I wanted to win at Cheltenham Henry would be one of the first on the list of trainers that I would consider. And I have absolutely no connection with him. He has a track record of getting his horses running to their best at Cheltenham. Sizing Australia was carved up in last year's Cross Country and Sizing Europe looked a certainty to win the Champion hurdle. What's the sample size? What is the ratio of cheltenham winners to runners.

Here is a quote from Henry two weeks ago:

Henry de bromhead feels positive tactics could strengthen sizing europe's chances of success in the sportingbet.com queen mother champion chase.
Last season's arkle hero is likely to adopt a prominent berth in the two-mile championship at the cheltenham festival, having earlier this season been ridden with much more restraint over longer distances.
De bromhead said: "he's really coming into himself.
"he's just starting to really come into form, but we haven't had as good a run-up as we had before he won the arkle last year.
"he loves that (being prominent). He loves that pace. The faster we go in the first mile, the better for him - he could have them all off the bridle coming down the hill like he did in the arkle.
"this year he has jumped a lot more deliberately, but we feel that was because he was going at a quite slower pace.
"but if you school him at home, and at speed, he just wings the fences."

Its far from certain that Nicholls is training Master Minded to be right on the day that matters. Twice in a row he has turned up in Cheltenham having his run his best races earlier in the year. Its very difficult for trainers to be as successful as Henry has been at Cheltenham, and he deserves credit for it, not to be assumed that he is some sort of lucky fool. Again, I would love to see the horse in the King George next year and he shouldnt be treated as an idiot for doing so.

UrbanSea

True Morgans. If Nicholls did that with the horse no one would bat an eye lid.

Morgans

The point of the humble pie was to point out to those who were slagging off Henry de Bromhead for the full year the opportunity to acknowledge that he is in fact a very very good trainer.

As for the campaign itself, I think had they won the King George (I think he would have been second had he turned up) they would then have had to make a decision regarding the Gold Cup. And that was why when it was cancelled they had to make an on-the-spot call (around New Year) whether to go for the Champion Chase or not. They got it bang on and full credit should go to them.

mdwexford

Somersby has Gold Cup written all over him, Sizing Europe never did.
Kauto Star is the greatest of the past 30 years and can do anything.
Captain Chris already shapes like a 2.5 miler.
Are you really serious and not getting this.

He had no clue what to do early on and almost ruined the horse.
Nearly wasted a season only the horses class got him out of jail yesterday.

Master Minded doesnt go on the ground, are you trying to say he better than Nicholls or Nicholls cant get horses ready for Cheltenham. Either way your talking complete rubbish in this thread.

Morgans

I am saying that Henry knows how to get horses ready for Cheltenham. That cannot be called into question by anyone other than fools.

I think its clear now that Sizing Europe can stay 2m4f, but that wasnt the target. They wanted to see if they had a gold cup horse - which is more the owner's choice than the trainer. Clearly that has been missed.

Or is that only horses that you think look like they will stay further that should be allowed to target the KG without criticism. Kicking King didnt look like he needed further as a novice. Its clear yesterday that the best stayer out of that lot was sizing europe.

Did Azertyuiop look like a 3m after running in the Champion Chase? Did Le Roi Miguel look like a 3m after winning the 2m novice at Aintree? I take it you believe Nicholls was a fool for attempting this?

Its fine for Nicholls to experiment and to see what he has, but if anyone other than the uncriciticable then they are idiots for attempting it.

He clearly is a fantastic trainer. but Nicholls has ruined more fine animals than most other trainers have had in their stables. Tataniano, Tatenen, Le Roi Miguel. There are numerous examples of horses that owners spent hundreds of thousands on that promised so much to end up in hunter chases aged 8-9 having looked superstars early on. My Will, Turko, Whitenzo, Sporazene, Ornais, Off the top of my head.

If you can say why Im talking rubbish and not just say it, it would be greatly appreciated.

Tataniano is wrong in there, but where is Oslot hese days. Horse whose form fell off a cliff after looking very very smart animals. Mahonia also.

Morgans

Interesting that.

Alastair Down on Ch 4 saying "there's Alan Potts, owner of Sizing Europe and Loosen My Load, his aim in life, to win the Cheltenham Gold Cup"

de Bromhead is still an idiot though.

Nulty

It was always the case that Sizing Europe's campaign was due to the owners. That was public knowledge from day one

mdwexford

Morgans wrote: »

I am saying that Henry knows how to get horses ready for Cheltenham. That cannot be called into question by anyone other than fools.

I think its clear now that Sizing Europe can stay 2m4f, but that wasnt the target. They wanted to see if they had a gold cup horse - which is more the owner's choice than the trainer. Clearly that has been missed.

Or is that only horses that you think look like they will stay further that should be allowed to target the KG without criticism. Kicking King didnt look like he needed further as a novice. Its clear yesterday that the best stayer out of that lot was sizing europe.

Did Azertyuiop look like a 3m after running in the Champion Chase? Did Le Roi Miguel look like a 3m after winning the 2m novice at Aintree? I take it you believe Nicholls was a fool for attempting this?

Its fine for Nicholls to experiment and to see what he has, but if anyone other than the uncriciticable then they are idiots for attempting it.

He clearly is a fantastic trainer. but Nicholls has ruined more fine animals than most other trainers have had in their stables. Tataniano, Tatenen, Le Roi Miguel. There are numerous examples of horses that owners spent hundreds of thousands on that promised so much to end up in hunter chases aged 8-9 having looked superstars early on. My Will, Turko, Whitenzo, Sporazene, Ornais, Off the top of my head.

If you can say why Im talking rubbish and not just say it, it would be greatly appreciated.

Tataniano is wrong in there, but where is Oslot hese days. Horse whose form fell off a cliff after looking very very smart animals. Mahonia also.

Doesnt mean 2m4f is his best trip though.
Kicking King always looked like a stayer to me.

Azertyuiop wasnt a 3miler, Nicholls was a fool for attempting that, it ruined the horse.

How he he ruined them because their form tailed off, what do you think he did wrong.

Morgans wrote: »

Interesting that.

Alastair Down on Ch 4 saying "there's Alan Potts, owner of Sizing Europe and Loosen My Load, his aim in life, to win the Cheltenham Gold Cup"

de Bromhead is still an idiot though.

If it was all the owners idea and the trainer wanted to stay over two miles then i take back anything bad i have said about his campaigning plans this season.

Morgans

Its impossible to say exactly what is causing it. Maybe some resent his training regieme, and in a stable of 100 plus horses he doesnt have the time to give each horse the personalised training regiem required.

If you asked an owner to pay 550,000 on the winner of this race - beating Monet's Garden and Inglis Drever - and given how well he runs for his current trainer, you'd have to suspect that Nicholls failed to get to the bottom of the horse.

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/result_home.sd?race_id=347292&r_date=2004-04-01&popup=yes

The same would have to be said for Garruth - 330,000 sent to Nicholls - and unfortunately couldnt win.

He has the best stable of expensive NH horseflesh and its clear that he can train well, but there are a lot of sob stories with expensive purchases from the point to point field and from french provinces.

Armaturk another very promising french-bred novice to end up hunter chasing before the age of 10. Just Amazin is one this year - but was never as good.

mdwexford

When he has so many horses passing through his stables many will turn out to not live up to expectations though. Again its a numbers thing, the more you have the more will disappoint.

In fairness GC is running well in stupid banks races.

Morgans

No, several of these are grade 1 winning novices who do not progress. Takeroc - 2nd in Aintree Grade 1 in 2008, 3rd in the Tingle Creek behind Master Minded in 2008 - finished 4th in a Ludlow hunter chase two weeks ago. He was a proper graded horse, not a high profile young novice winner who faded. There is no way that he should be running in a hunter chase aged 8. Send him to Ireland and he would mop up prizemoney chasing SE, GS and BZ.

Oslot for instance won the Galway Plate and looked ready to beat Exotic Dancer, Voy Por Ustedes etc between the last two in the Old Roan Chase and within months he was next to useless.

They seem to be trained hard and some respond well to it some dont. Garde Champetre now is a fading light but I would have prepared him for the Grand National (irish or english) when Bolger had got him running sweetly. He was a dog under Nicholls, wasnt in love with the game.

Other horses proved not good enough or got injured. That happens all trainers and the more horses you have the higher proportion of fall out there is. Nevada Royale for instance.

He undoubtedly can train. And the way he has brought back Taranis, Call Equiname, Denman and Kauto Star from injury was been nothing other masterful.

finbarrk

Morgans wrote: »

Interesting that.

Alastair Down on Ch 4 saying "there's Alan Potts, owner of Sizing Europe and Loosen My Load, his aim in life, to win the Cheltenham Gold Cup"

de Bromhead is still an idiot though.

Your last comment makes you sound similar.

smartaform

Morgans, not all Grade 1 winning Novices progress further, some reach a peak at different points and have no extra.

Did you end up joining De Bromheads FB Club??
That is assuming you aren't De Bromhead

Morgans

Indeed. Internet debate position 101. I am Henry de Bromhead indeed.

But its clear from all interviews that Alan Potts wants a runner in the Gold Cup. He pays the bills. Hopefully when people realise how good a trainer De Bromhead is, he wont be so reliant on one owner. And out of his four runners this week, he had two winners and two placed. I know that if I had a horse I would have absolutely no problem sending it to Henry. Yet he is treated as an idiot on here and has been all year.

I also know that not all Grade 1 novices progress. However, Nicholls has a very high attrition rate. And a lot of his horses are very expensive purchases. For instance, Le Roi Miguel won the grade 1 at Aintree, hammering the Arkle runner up, looking a great front running 2m chaser in the making. However, he was tried at 3m after, often held up, because the stable had Azertyuiop, Cenkos, Kadarann and others. Had he been in any other stable he would have been taking on Azertyuiop over 2m. As it turned out, he won 1 race outside of being a novice. It has happened with lots of very good horses.

smartaform

Morgans wrote: »

Indeed. Internet debate position 101. I am Henry de Bromhead indeed.

But its clear from all interviews that Alan Potts wants a runner in the Gold Cup. He pays the bills. Hopefully when people realise how good a trainer De Bromhead is, he wont be so reliant on one owner. And out of his four runners this week, he had two winners and two placed. I know that if I had a horse I would have absolutely no problem sending it to Henry. Yet he is treated as an idiot on here and has been all year.

He does pay the bills, however, if he's paying the bills, surely he has to respect the opinion and knowledge of the trainer. Otherwise he may as well take out the license himself.

Nulty

smartaform wrote: »

He does pay the bills, however, if he's paying the bills, surely he has to respect the opinion and knowledge of the trainer. Otherwise he may as well take out the license himself.

Your getting into Pandorama territory here. What could Meade do to stop the owner wanting Pando to race today? Tell him he won't train the horse anymore? The owners word is final unless he wants to lose one of his stables best horses/owners. By best owners I mean the ones that give him the best horses. If Alan Potts waants a Gold Cup horsse and tells de Bromhead to make one out of Sizing Europe there isn't much he can do bar show the owner the door.

Morgans

I don't see anything wrong with the owner seeing if his horse can stay as long as the trainer is good enough to let it not ruin the horse. I think the presence of Long Run may make him think twice about going for the King George this year.

Potts spent 320,000 on Go All The Way (his horse that ran in the bumper) was sent to three trainers already. Hobbs, Dreaper and now Twiston-Davies. I would imagine that he isn't the easiest to deal with.

Plentyofice

From reading thsi thread there are a fair few knockers who obviously
1. Haven;t a clue how to train horses and know what's involved
2. Are almost certainly speaking out of their arse pockets.

It was a stunning training performance. Horses are animals not machines , they have a mind of their own. They tried him over further and it didn't suit.
With the horses he has, to come away with 2 winners and a third. Brilliant. Every year I hear how stunning a trainer Enda Bolger is (he is brill) for getting a horse to win the cross country....De Bromhead did it and throw in a champion chase. That's a champion 2 miler and a long distance 4m+ race as well.
Twiston davies 0, Venetia Williams 0, Joe Tizzard 1, Nick Williams 0, Howard Johnson 0 Nicky Richards 0, Noel Meade 0, Tony Martin 0,.....cmon men, give the credit.;)

smartaform

Nulty wrote: »

Your getting into Pandorama territory here. What could Meade do to stop the owner wanting Pando to race today? Tell him he won't train the horse anymore? The owners word is final unless he wants to lose one of his stables best horses/owners. By best owners I mean the ones that give him the best horses. If Alan Potts waants a Gold Cup horsse and tells de Bromhead to make one out of Sizing Europe there isn't much he can do bar show the owner the door.

Nulty, it isn't a straight - the owners word is final. The horse is being trained by someone - he is designing the training programme, implementing it and should be targeting where to go. Sure the owners wishes will be there BUT DB should have made it clear the horse wasn't suited by it BASED OFF what he was getting at the training track. I've dealt with owners in 4 countries and they all want thew same thing - honesty about their horse and fact - What is the horse capable of?

If Alan Potts went to any trainer and said make a GC horse out of SE, I DOUBT they would accomodate him... His best form is below 2m 5f... He can stay the same strong pace for a nice distance and break their hearts under 2m 5f.
I recall seeing SE at the foot of the 'Old Vic' in 2008, a week before the Champion Hurdle, he looked like death warmed up. I'd say they learnt some valuable lessons that year!!

In the end it worked out well with him winning the Champion Chase.

Morgans

Just like Meade saying that Pandorama couldnt win a Gold Cup in that ground. Hen Knight ran Somersby in the Champion Chase on the basis of the owner's very special circumstances, Oscar Whisky's main aim this year was the Welsh Champion Hurdle.

The owners own the horses and have their reasons for choosing where they want to go. Owners with egos must be a real pain. Trainers are the hired help to plenty of that kind, and their word is final.

Flagship Uberalles american owners being one of the worst, moved from through Nicholls, Chance and Hobbs.

Potts has already fallen out with Hobbs and moved a 320,000 purchase from his yard without that horse running for him. If de Bromhead wants to have half his stable leave him, he should antagonise Potts.

I think there would be a long long queue of trainers willing to take on Sizing Europe, Gold Cup aim or not.

I still dont think aiming for the King George was foolish. About as foolish as aiming Somersby, MasterMinded, Captain Chris for it.

Winning Ways Racing

To understand why DeBromhead went down the 3m route with Sizing Europe, you have to understand the relationship with his biggest owner. Last year Potts had his first runners with Nicky Henderson, and he sent an expensive purchase to Hobbs. Now I've seen DeB at the sales over the last 12 months with Potts and I feel sorry for the man. Potts is a bag of money and every trainer is trying to pinch him from DeB, who has done well for the man. So you can understand why DeB doesn't bother arguing with Potts. If he falls out with the man, then he loses 15 horses from the yard. It's bigger than just Sizing Europe and sometimes you need to know which battle to lose in order to win the war.

Nulty

But it is smartaform. The owner gets what s/he wants or they move to a trainer that will do what they want. I have no experience of ownership or training but thats the way it looks to me. Look at Marwan Kukash in Britain, probably a horrible owner to train for. Over opinionated and under qualified. Its his prerogative to run his horses where he likes and he runs them all at Chester more or less. If the current trainer doesn't do what they want they find another that will.

Like others have said before, Potts is a bag of money that no trainer wants to lose unless they've got strong principles and other bags of money.

smartaform

Nulty wrote: »

But it is smartaform. The owner gets what s/he wants or they move to a trainer that will do what they want. I have no experience of ownership or training but thats the way it looks to me. Look at Marwan Kukash in Britain, probably a horrible owner to train for. Over opinionated and under qualified. Its his prerogative to run his horses where he likes and he runs them all at Chester more or less. If the current trainer doesn't do what they want they find another that will.

Like others have said before, Potts is a bag of money that no trainer wants to lose unless they've got strong principles and other bags of money.

I'm not denying SOME trainers will please their owners, all i'm saying is based off fact - the trainer is training the horse and he can say what suits and what doesn't and owners prefer honesty.
Yes bags of money are helpful, however if the trainer knows their stuff, the owner will respect and listen.. There are a few BOM who are difficult, which is their call and ultimately they lose out..
Lets look at it this way, Winning Ways i'm sure would love to win a gold cup, he has (another):D Grade 1 winner over 2miles.. Does he tell his trainer that said horse is to be targeted at the Gold Cup OR does he wait until he has one coming thru which shows the right sort of pattern for a stayer both at home and on the track?

Morgans

I dont think it matters if most owners prefer honesty. This is one particular owner, Alan Potts, whose horse did end up running and winning the Champion Chase.

Winning Ways Racing

smartaform wrote: »

Yes bags of money are helpful, however if the trainer knows their stuff, the owner will respect and listen.

It is my experience that there are a lot of Potts type owners out there. And there are some trainers that need to be told what they should be doing. But it's about having a good relationship between owner and trainer. I pay a doctor to take my heart rate, a tax man to do my tax returns, a plumber to look after the pipes, a sparky to check out the car, and a trainer to train our horses. Of course you can always question what your doc is doing and you should be aware of what they are doing. Then decide if you have any reason not to agree with their view. That's my approach.

smartaform

Winning Ways Racing wrote: »

It is my experience that there are a lot of Potts type owners out there. And there are some trainers that need to be told what they should be doing. But it's about having a good relationship between owner and trainer. I pay a doctor to take my heart rate, a tax man to do my tax returns, a plumber to look after the pipes, a sparky to check out the car, and a trainer to train our horses. Of course you can always question what your doc is doing and you should be aware of what they are doing. Then decide if you have any reason not to agree with their view. That's my approach.

The common sense approach!!

Juwwi

A few questions are still un anserwed tho about the horse tho after the (experiment season ) does he stay the gold cup trip?
Does he stay a 3mile Grade 1 King George trip.

Fair enough the owner wanted to go for the Gold Cup but finishing 3rd to Kauto at Down Royal did'nt prove anything and then why did'nt he go for the King George?
There was'nt any injury excuses as far as l can remember it was more the trainer throwing his toys out of the pram because it was re routed.

And why was the horse entered in the Ryanair chase if it was either the Gold Cup that the owner wanted or the Champion Chase that the trainer wanted to go for that he was good enough to win.

Next year will be interesting.

Winning Ways Racing

robbie1977 wrote: »

why did'nt he go for the King George?
There was'nt any injury excuses as far as l can remember it was more the trainer throwing his toys out of the pram because it was re routed.

As I understood, DeBromhead had travelled Sizing Europe over to Kempton and did not want to bring him back, wait the two weeks and travel him over again. Travel does take it out of a horse and travelling twice in a fortnight isn't ideal. I don't think he threw the rattle out of the pram.

hucklebuck

mdwexford wrote: »

Wow eh sample size, two races doesnt prove much.

Loosen My Load placed at the festival too. I only remember seeing three of his at the festival, if I am right even the mighty Dr O Brien would have been happy with those figures.

Backstreet Moyes

4 runners. 2 winners and 2 places. Im sure every other trainer wishes they were as big as idiots as de bromhead.

Winning Ways Racing

Any update on the Facebook syndicate. A lad walked up to me in Leopardstown recently as he recognised the Winning Ways jacket and said he was in the DeBromhead syndicate. He said they had been down to look at horses in the yard but nothing suited and they were going to the sales. Did anyone here join up?

qzy

Looks like they are going with a Classic Cliche 4 yr old thats in the yard

Winning Ways Racing

Sounds like a start. Is it unraced? I think it's going to be a fascinating experiment. I appreciate six months has been paid in advance but if the first run is moderate or it gets injured, there could be a mass exodus of members. One of the benefits of our syndicates is that there is always plenty of cash in the account so when the horse is injured, you don't need any more cash from members which is great.