Fish Oils

SanoVitae

Hi everyone,

I came across this site today and though I'd share.

"Prof. Brian Peskin is a world-leading scientist specializing in parent EFAs — termed PEOs — and their direct relationship to both cancer and cardiovascular disease."

On his website, he speaks about the dangers of fish oil supplementation.

Certainly a different opinion to the majority of trainers who heavily advocate the use of fish oil supplements:

http://www.brianpeskin.com/

Also, Udo Erasmus speaks about fish oil supplementation:

http://www.udoerasmus.com/articles/udo/good-fish-oils-not-enough.htm

Well worth checking out.

Cheers,

Paul

d'Oracle

I will have a look, but as a rule I am skeptical of any doctor who puts their face on a website.

"What you're about to see will likely SHACK and inFURiate you."

But hey, he is an Electrical Engineer who founded the field of Life-systems Engineering Science.

rocky

I liked the part where Udo cited scientific studies for his ALA-to-EPA/DHA efficiency conversion claims.

Also the part where he didn't have a product to sell...

Hanley

Udo's article is clever and sorta makes sense... go straight to the source rather than faffing about thru several stages.

But he sells a 3, 6, 9 blend - I thought the average diet's already over-rich in 6 and 9 which can lead to inflammation, additional omega 3 being what balances it out and brings everything back to par?

d'Oracle

http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/Peskin/peskin.html

SanoVitae

Just to make it clear, I take fish oils myself so I have no bias either way.

I just thought they were interesting articles.

Yeah, I've always wondered that about Udo's recommendations. Does he believe that Omega 6 and 9 have to be included in the oil mix because they make it easier for the body to utilise and make best use of the Omega 3?

cc87

I read somewhere recently, cant remember where but it wasnt anywhere scientific or anything like that, that since one of the properties of fish oils is that they reduce inflammation you shouldnt take them soon after a heavy training session since inflammation is part of the bodies recovery process.

This was just someones own thoughts but was wondering if anyone here ever came across anything similar??

metamorphosis

Check out the nutrition myths thread in nutrition forum - i linked a few studies that showed that although there were greart short term benefits to supplementing fish oils (< 5 years), taking grams daily long term was not so wise for a number of reasons on top of the fact that most people take a low quality grade oil thats prone to oxidation in the body. It also advises of the bes types of fish oil (FCLO been one of them)

Transform

Br J Nutr. 2007 May did a review in cancer patients and concluded -

"Our findings suggest that administration of n-3 FA (EPA and DHA) in doses of at least 1.5 g/day (quite low really IMO) for a prolonged period of time to patients with advanced cancer is associated with an improvement in clinical, biological and QoL parameters".


on the weight los front - Int J obesity 2007 concluded in a study with over 300 men that -

"In young, overweight men, the inclusion of either lean or fatty fish, or fish oil as part of an energy-restricted diet resulted in approximately 1 kg more weight loss after 4 weeks, than did a similar diet without seafood or supplement of marine origin. The addition of seafood to a nutritionally balanced energy-restricted diet may boost weight loss".

you could go on and on with regards to EPA/DHA and positive results for neurodegenerative conditions, joint degereration, heart disease, cholesterol, etc there really is a massive weight in favour of EPA/DHA from fish versus omega 6's or even 3's when they come from plant based foods.

should we just all EAT more fish - YES. Most dont so thats why a supplement might be your second best bet

SanoVitae

d'Oracle wrote: »

But hey, he is an Electrical Engineer who founded the field of Life-systems Engineering Science.

Udo Erasmus' background is in Zoology and Counselling Psychology. Hardly the typical background for someone involves in the nutrition industry. Yet, he is regarded by many as the world's leading authority on fats.

What do you think of Peksin's theories and what he says about fish oils?

Red Cortina

I used to take a lot of fish oil as advised by the trainer I used to go to:eek:

I don't do that any more as, from what I've read, it seems that polyunsaturated fats (which include the Omega 3, 6 & 9 fatty acids) are prone to oxidation both prior to and after consumption.

Chris Kresser referenced this long-term study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12571649 which concluded that fish oils increased the risk of heart disease and sudden death.

I now try and take a teaspoon full of this stuff http://www.greenpasture.org/public/Products/ButterCodLiverBlend/index.cfm when I remember

phelixoflaherty

http://www.badscience.net/category/fish-oil/

SanoVitae

Transform wrote: »

Br J Nutr. 2007 May did a review in cancer patients and concluded -

"Our findings suggest that administration of n-3 FA (EPA and DHA) in doses of at least 1.5 g/day (quite low really IMO) for a prolonged period of time to patients with advanced cancer is associated with an improvement in clinical, biological and QoL parameters".

Any link to the study?

I'd be interested if there was a test group who were supplementing with another form of fats/oils (i.e. a non-fish source) and what the comparison in results was.

I'd expect an improvement in all those parameters if they supplemented with coconut oil,for example, simply because the majority of people don't eat enough (or take supplements) of the right kinds of fats.

SanoVitae

phelixoflaherty wrote: »

http://www.badscience.net/category/fish-oil/

Ben Goldacre is the man!

Not a big fan of Patrick Holford!

Transform

SanoVitae wrote: »

Any link to the study?

I'd be interested if there was a test group who were supplementing with another form of fats/oils (i.e. a non-fish source) and what the comparison in results was.

I'd expect an improvement in all those parameters if they supplemented with coconut oil,for example, simply because the majority of people don't eat enough (or take supplements) of the right kinds of fats.

link here - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17408522

i generally go for whole study reviews or the best would really be a cochrane review (massively respected)

e.g. Clin Cardiology 2009 - "We identified 11 studies that included a total of 39 044 patients".

Conclusion - "Dietary supplementation with omega-3 fatty acids should be considered in the secondary prevention of cardiovascular events".

there is lots more stuff coming out in the journals you just have to sift through them.

Again overall its a good idea to A) first of all clean up your diet as no amount of supplementation is going to make up for a diet filled with proinflammatory foods,

eat more fish

C) still not eating enough fish or any fish - ok take a supplement.

Parsley

ahhhh... anyone see the bit on the homepage of peskin's site saying "studies ARE NOT science"?? wtf. That sentence is one of the most astoundingly erroneous statements i've ever read.

L, can you get me a "science: ur doin it rong" picture, with a cat?

Red Cortina

Transform wrote: »

link here - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17408522

i generally go for whole study reviews or the best would really be a cochrane review (massively respected)

e.g. Clin Cardiology 2009 - "We identified 11 studies that included a total of 39 044 patients".

Conclusion - "Dietary supplementation with omega-3 fatty acids should be considered in the secondary prevention of cardiovascular events".

there is lots more stuff coming out in the journals you just have to sift through them.

Again overall its a good idea to A) first of all clean up your diet as no amount of supplementation is going to make up for a diet filled with proinflammatory foods,

eat more fish

C) still not eating enough fish or any fish - ok take a supplement.

I think that the overall health strategy to achieve a 2:1 ratio of n-6 to n-3 should be to limit the total amount of PUFAs in your diet overall rather than trying to eat more n-3 to compensate for all the n-6 in your diet. Do you not think?

Transform

Red Cortina wrote: »

I used to take a lot of fish oil as advised by the trainer I used to go to:eek:

I don't do that any more as, from what I've read, it seems that polyunsaturated fats (which include the Omega 3, 6 & 9 fatty acids) are prone to oxidation both prior to and after consumption.

Chris Kresser referenced this long-term study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12571649 which concluded that fish oils increased the risk of heart disease and sudden death.

I now try and take a teaspoon full of this stuff http://www.greenpasture.org/public/Products/ButterCodLiverBlend/index.cfm when I remember

really like chris kresser and did a good interview with robb wolf there the week before last.

I think there is not enough total evidence to show fish oils are essential for overall health (certainly beneficial in particular conditions) but were are getting closer to becoming conclusive that excessive omega 6 consumption (yes the veg oil in your food is BAD) is certainly a bad thing and consuming more long and medium chain FA

Transform

sorry you just asked a question i was addressing above - yes i agree and thats why i think Udo is barking up the wrong tree and hanging on to his hat for all its worth as he knows he is wayyy off base (though he did give us fats that heal, fats that kill which was a good fat intro all those years ago)

d'Oracle

SanoVitae wrote: »

Udo Erasmus' background is in Zoology and Counselling Psychology. Hardly the typical background for someone involves in the nutrition industry. Yet, he is regarded by many as the world's leading authority on fats.

What do you think of Peksin's theories and what he says about fish oils?

I think he is a BS merchant.
Twice in his hilarious little Video which was meant to SHACK me, he said studies are trash.
And that people need to do more experiments.

He made a frankly absurd suggestion that supplementing fish oil would "lead you down the road to diabetes" his theories seem to be based on small sample "experiments" conducted by himself and pretzel logic.

Transform

udo did a great job of helping people understand the benefits of good fats at a time when everyone was fat phobic but things have moved on and he cant move on as he has too much vested interest in selling his oil.

I must say i went to a lecture given by him and a guy from holland (years ago) and their talk on digestion (importance of optimal digestion and benefits of probiotics etc) was one of the best lectures i have ever been too.

He has some good general info but overall he has been surpassed by many current thinkers on nutrition.

dont get me started on patrick holford - it all went down hill after his book optimal nutrition. Been to see him a few times and have never seen so many sick people in a room all looking for the magic bullet solution!

Compak

d'Oracle wrote: »

I think he is a BS merchant.
Twice in his hilarious little Video which was meant to SHACK me, he said studies are trash.
And that people need to do more experiments.

He made a frankly absurd suggestion that supplementing fish oil would "lead you down the road to diabetes" his theories seem to be based on small sample "experiments" conducted by himself and pretzel logic.

Udos is wrong in many regards and his products flawed.

With regard to diabetes, yes indeed it was true there was an initial fear but it's not seen as true now.

"Concerns have been raised that fish oils reduced glucose tolerance, specifically in diabetics [89]. A meta-analysis of 26 trials, containing diabetic patients, showed no negative impact on HB1AC at 3gEPA/DHA/day [90]. In fact, within populations there was a reduction in insulin resistance and
diabetes incidence [91], possibly through the exertion of fish oil actions to activate PPARγ [56]."

d'Oracle

Compak wrote: »

Udos is wrong in many regards and his products flawed.

With regard to diabetes, yes indeed it was true there was an initial fear but it's not seen as true now.

"Concerns have been raised that fish oils reduced glucose tolerance, specifically in diabetics [89]. A meta-analysis of 26 trials, containing diabetic patients, showed no negative impact on HB1AC at 3gEPA/DHA/day [90]. In fact, within populations there was a reduction in insulin resistance and
diabetes incidence [91], possibly through the exertion of fish oil actions to activate PPARγ [56]."

I haven't cast any aspersions on Udo.
Don't know enough about him.
That other guy is a charlatan though.

Compak

d'Oracle wrote: »

I haven't cast any aspersions on Udo.
Don't know enough about him.
That other guy is a charlatan though.

Apologies if I implied that with my quote. However, I still stand by my comment as an independent post.