New commuter route Newry - Dublin

Unshelved

Saw this on the Irish Rail website today -

Iarnród Éireann, in cooperation with Translink, is to begin operating a new cross-border commuter service from Newry to Dublin from Monday next 21st March.

The existing 07.10 Dundalk to Dublin to Bray service is now extended to operate from Newry at 06.45 (Monday to Friday), offering a new option to those commuting from Newry to Dublin, as well as to Dundalk and Drogheda.

The service will be operated by Iarnród Éireann commuter trains, and is being introduced with the assistance of Translink, and following discussions at the North-South Ministerial Council.

This train is already unbelievably overcrowded in the mornings, and now they're adding further passengers? How about some consideration for existing commuters before Irish Rail start extending the service to new ones?

As usual, Northern Line commuters are the poor relations again :mad:

dowlingm

Mark Gleeson has been muttering some dark things about this service on RUI forums...

T Corolla

I cant see many from Newry using this service. With the cost of the fair it would be cheaper to rent near Dublin or drive up and down

Losty Dublin

T Corolla wrote: »

I cant see many from Newry using this service. With the cost of the fair it would be cheaper to rent near Dublin or drive up and down

It was tried already and failed due to low numbers.

L1011

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It was tried already and failed due to low numbers.

I knew of one regular user, he just started driving to Dundalk after it stopped.

shamwari

Excuse my French but this is f**king ridiculous. We have serious issues with the timekeeping and quality of service into Dublin on this route, and on this service in particular. And now they propose to start the thing in Newry? The word "contempt" spring to mind. :mad:

OurLadyofKnock

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It was tried already and failed due to low numbers.

I thought the reason was the upgrade to the line and it was halted but was never resumed? I took it once around 1996 I think and the train was busy from Newry. There was still a lot of paramilitary stuff going on then too.

Then again the service is still rubbish so I can't see this taking off with so many buses and new roads now.

OurLadyofKnock

dowlingm wrote: »

Mark Gleeson has been muttering some dark things about this service on RUI forums...

Sounds like the kind of excuses the train drivers unions whip out to kill off service enhancement. "train not safe..." Reminds me of the Mk4 "747" bollox.

Losty Dublin

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

I thought the reason was the upgrade to the line and it was halted but was never resumed? I took it once around 1996 I think and the train was busy from Newry. There was still a lot of paramilitary stuff going on then too.

Then again the service is still rubbish so I can't see this taking off with so many buses and new roads now.

Nah, it was the numbers that saw to it as it was badly patronised more often than it did well The relaying and the lack of rolling stock at the time didn't help it's cause either but it wasn't destined to last. Hopefully the future for it will be better this time around.

DWCommuter

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Sounds like the kind of excuses the train drivers unions whip out to kill off service enhancement. "train not safe..." Reminds me of the Mk4 "747" bollox.

All one has to do is look at the source. Good night, God bless and safe home.:D

foggy_lad

DWCommuter wrote: »

All one has to do is look at the source. Good night, God bless and safe home.:D

Who is Mark Glesson? Some kind if railways expert?

Oh and the thread title is wrong, its not a new service or a new route. Merely an extra stop added to an existing service and route.

DWCommuter

foggy_lad wrote: »

Who is Mark Glesson? Some kind of railways expert?

No comment.

dowlingm

Here's the real scandal: IE used taxpayer money to buy TPWS for six 22K sets, but is sending 29Ks to Newry rather than train 22K drivers, gauge clear the sets and certify the NIR safety gear. DARTs are being dragged to Drogheda Depot for work but there's probably not a lick of work done to accommodate 22Ks there which could get there just fine on their own.

If they sent 22Ks instead of 29s (that could manage 85-90mph south of the border rather than 70mph), the 0645 ex Newry could leave at 0652 if it could merely keep up with Enterprise timings and still leave Dundalk at 0710.

Hey, maybe we could all go crazy and timetable a stop at Drogheda (~0608) and Dundalk (~0622) while the 22K is on the way north from Drogheda Depot to allow transfer to the 0650 Newry-Bangor service. But then, who would find being in central Belfast by 8am useful, or Sydenham/Belfast City Airport by 0810...

ArseBurger

That's what Louth get for voting in Adams.

Fair dues.

Zebra3

Does nobody in this country take responsibility for where the GDA ends?

At the very time when it's begun to sink in on people that building houses for commuters miles away from Dublin is unsustainable, this happens. :rolleyes:

Aard

@Zebra3:
While I agree with you, there is a trade-off between putting a public transport limit on Greater Dublin, and serving existing communities (whether or not they should've been built). Also I realise that we had absolutely no say in Newry!

===

With this specific corridor, I actually don't mind. It's inevitable that the Dublin-Belfast route will become more urbanised in years to come. "Eastern Seaboard" and all that. Better to have the infrastructure there to aid what's going to come, instead of trying to inhibit the natural course of events.

OurLadyofKnock

Aard wrote: »

@Zebra3:
With this specific corridor, I actually don't mind. It's inevitable that the Dublin-Belfast route will become more urbanised in years to come. "Eastern Seaboard" and all that. Better to have the infrastructure there to aid what's going to come, instead of trying to inhibit the natural course of events.

I think this is a very good and logical point which needs highlighting.

Zebra3

Aard wrote: »

@Zebra3:
While I agree with you, there is a trade-off between putting a public transport limit on Greater Dublin, and serving existing communities (whether or not they should've been built). Also I realise that we had absolutely no say in Newry!

===

With this specific corridor, I actually don't mind. It's inevitable that the Dublin-Belfast route will become more urbanised in years to come. "Eastern Seaboard" and all that. Better to have the infrastructure there to aid what's going to come, instead of trying to inhibit the natural course of events.

The bit I've bolded is true all right, but why should we be extending our commuter services across the border when we can't sell homes in places like Clongriffin on the DART line?

Cookie_Monster

Why in God's name would you commute inter country from Newry to Dublin anyway? That's madness, that kind of time and distance.

OurLadyofKnock

Zebra3 wrote: »

The bit I've bolded is true all right, but why should we be extending our commuter services across the border when we can't sell homes in places like Clongriffin on the DART line?

Things will get better one day and the economy will improve. Always does.

Anyways, this notion that rail lines should be built for developers was a pathological dogma by the insane last government who were basicially an occupational force ruling the country in the name of banks and developers.

This is about providing new rail services to Newry not about building houses and apartments there. Those days of "de train to me block o' flats!!!!" days are in the rubbish bin of Irish history alongside Fianna Fail and the Green Party.

I will give this new Government one chance to prove they can develop public transport for more than developers and priests. Just one chance mind.

Unshelved

The bit I've bolded is true all right, but why should we be extending our commuter services across the border when we can't sell homes in places like Clongriffin on the DART line?

... and when peak-time service is already overcrowded. This train is a particularly congested one - adding this service is completely unfair to existing passengers.

positron

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Why in God's name would you commute inter country from Newry to Dublin anyway? That's madness, that kind of time and distance.

I wonder if there's some demand for Newry-Dundalk, but hard to imagine any major demand that early in the morning there.

May be they should turn that service into a smaller capacity express service, by not calling at any stations past Drogheda or Balbriggan, and have another normal commuter service start from Drogheda immediately after calling at all stations to Dublin. (PS: Yes, I am biased).

PS: This would be hugely beneficial to Newry, Dundalk and Drogheda commuters as they get to work quicker, and to everyone else as the second train will turn up with more capacity.

Run_to_da_hills

They might as well just extend it to Belfast and have it as their 3rd class Enterprise service.

ardmacha

They need an earlier Enterprise from Dublin so that getting to Belfast by 8:30, for anyone on business etc in Belfast. This could serve as an express commuter from Newry northwards. Perhaps this could be achieved by a change a Newry or Dundalk, e.g. a train could leave Dublin at 6am, go to Newry and return to Dublin as a limited stop, allowing passengers proceed on NIR services if they wished.

dowlingm

Tricky part about a pre 0900 Enterprise to Belfast is where it fits in with other NIR services heading in from Portadown to central Belfast.

Oliver1985

Can the mark3s go cross border?:eek:

kingshankly

Unshelved wrote: »

Saw this on the Irish Rail website today -



This train is already unbelievably overcrowded in the mornings, and now they're adding further passengers? How about some consideration for existing commuters before Irish Rail start extending the service to new ones?

As usual, Northern Line commuters are the poor relations again :mad:

can't believe people are worried about capacity this train is down I'd say 100 odd passengers at least from a couple of years ago and will now pick up maybe a dozen or so from newry.

kingshankly

shamwari wrote: »

Excuse my French but this is f**king ridiculous. We have serious issues with the timekeeping and quality of service into Dublin on this route, and on this service in particular. And now they propose to start the thing in Newry? The word "contempt" spring to mind. :mad:

and what difference will stopping in newry make the train still leaves Dundalk at the same time and will still follow the same path

dowlingm

Oliver1985 wrote: »

Can the mark3s go cross border?:eek:

I don't know if they're gauge cleared but as far as AWS/TPWS goes stick a 201 on each end - one driving and one generating - and bob's your uncle

shamwari

kingshankly wrote: »

and what difference will stopping in newry make the train still leaves Dundalk at the same time and will still follow the same path

Because people at the south end asked for that train to stop and call at Malahide and Howth junction, and they were told there wasn't enough capacity on it (which there isn't). But it's funny how there's capacity for it to start in Newry now. :rolleyes:

Assuming it takes off and and becomes popular, how will folk at the last stops (Skerries / Rush & Lusk, Donabate) fair out? They will be left behind like they are now on some occasions, but only more frequently. :mad:

Thank Christ for the 33X

shamwari

dowlingm wrote: »

I don't know if they're gauge cleared but as far as AWS/TPWS goes stick a 201 on each end - one driving and one generating - and bob's your uncle

The MK3's are indeed cleared and I used one several times in '96 to go to Belfast. The topping and tailing bit (engine either end) could be a problem due to that practice not being cleared. Also I'm not sure about the electrics bit though. Think a generator van might be needed as HEP possibly can't be used to power the Mk3's. but I'm not an expert on these things..:p

positron

shamwari wrote: »

Because people at the south end asked for that train to stop and call at Malahide and Howth junction, and they were told there wasn't enough capacity on it (which there isn't). But it's funny how there's capacity for it to start in Newry now. :rolleyes:

Commuter trains are for people commuting from long distance. Malahide and Howth should look to get more DARTs, why make life misserable for those who have no other choice but these trains?

PS: Sorry, couldn't resist.

BenShermin

I'd like to throw a spanner in the works here.

The train departs Newry at 0645 arrives Dublin at 0830.
Ulsterbus departs Newry at 0655 arrives Dublin at 0840.

Both the bus and train take exactly the same amount of time, given the bus leaves from the centre of Newry it is actually tecnically faster. I can't see many people from Newry stupid enough to use this new train service! I know I'd prefer a comfy bus than an overcrowded slow commuter train.

positron

BenShermin wrote: »

a comfy bus than an overcrowded slow commuter train.

You will get a seat from Newry, Dundalk etc, but yes, going back, commuter trains are packed with those who get off at Pormarnock (if train calls there), Malahide etc. Also no denying the fact that the Northern Commuter route is getting slower and slower every year - I don't understand the reason behind it, and it's beyond ridiculous imho!

markpb

BenShermin wrote: »

I'd like to throw a spanner in the works here.

The train departs Newry at 0645 arrives Dublin at 0830.
Ulsterbus departs Newry at 0655 arrives Dublin at 0840.

Is the bus time reliable? The N1 between the DPT portals and Whitehall can be really bad in the mornings.

Hungerford

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Sounds like the kind of excuses the train drivers unions whip out to kill off service enhancement. "train not safe..." Reminds me of the Mk4 "747" bollox.

The whole AWS/TPWS issue is a red herring for me, despite Gleeson's warnings about trains running into the back of each other.

The Newry-Dundalk section of track isn't terribly heavily used and the next train is due to pass through it an hour later which makes me wonder what it is supposed to collide with.

In addition, large sections of the Irish Rail network manage without CAWS quite well...

shamwari

positron wrote: »

Commuter trains are for people commuting from long distance. Malahide and Howth should look to get more DARTs, why make life misserable for those who have no other choice but these trains? PS: Sorry, couldn't resist.

No worries! That request was made by a number of people / groups who wanted to use that service to allow school children disembark at Malahide and Howth Junction to facilitate them going to schools in those areas. Personally I agree that the overriding need is for this service to get into the city center with as few a number of stops as possible and therefore it should not stop, but the excuse given was "lack of capacity", but clearly they can find capacity north of the border when they can't to the south.

markpb wrote: »

Is the bus time reliable? The N1 between the DPT portals and Whitehall can be really bad in the mornings.

The M1 has recently been widened to 3 lanes between the airport and Drynam in each direction, and this has made a significant difference during rush hour. Also, if the bus does through DPT rather than overground, the gains are enhanced.

positron wrote: »

You will get a seat from Newry, Dundalk etc, but yes, going back, commuter trains are packed with those who get off at Pormarnock (if train calls there), Malahide etc.

If this thing takes off, there is no guarantee people in Drogheda will all get seats, plus those at the last stops might be left behind.

positron wrote: »

Also no denying the fact that the Northern Commuter route is getting slower and slower every year - I don't understand the reason behind it, and it's beyond ridiculous imho!

Yep, I could not agree more. It has become something of shambles, between woeful pathing and timetabling, the chicanery and obstructionism that is a daily fact around Howth Junction and Malahide, and a proliferation of prolonged speed limits. I cite those at Laytown bridge, and from Fairview to Connolly as two of my pet hates. The latter has been in place around 10 years and with no outwardly visible need for it, can only be deduced as nothing more than gratuitous.

The collapse of the Malahide viaduct woke many long suffering commuters up to the viable alternatives there are to overcrowded and slow rail. I have been regularly using the 33X bus since then and will use it at every opportunity I can. Rail has lost many customers following the Malahide collapse and Irish rail are doing nothing to try and win them back. Indeed, we could almost be forgiven for thinking they are more focused on winning cross border business instead.

Oliver1985

Why dont they put together a mark3 set , have it serve Newry, Dundalk , drogheda then non stop to Connolly!!!
Having done this commute stopping at every station along the way is a pain in the arse!!

DWCommuter

Hungerford wrote: »

The whole AWS/TPWS issue is a red herring for me, despite Gleeson's warnings about trains running into the back of each other.

The Newry-Dundalk section of track isn't terribly heavily used and the next train is due to pass through it an hour later which makes me wonder what it is supposed to collide with.

In addition, large sections of the Irish Rail network manage without CAWS quite well...

I must admit I was somewhat annoyed at the reaction and recommendations of where people should sit to avoid injury in the event of a collision. I think it was a careless and irresponsible thing to say.

dowlingm

There's always the Gatwicks stock. :rolleyes: You know, the ones NIR bought as "Enterprise backup" and then left to rot while being unwilling/able to bring the DBSO they bought for it into service?

As for EGVs for the Mark 3 fleet - sorry they are busy since they were wired for PP, so they're busy bombing around in DeDietrich sets. Oh wait. They aren't.

At least the C3Ks, 4Ks and 22Ks come in sets to make it harder for NIR and IE to stick bits on here and there to make a balls of it.

SeanW

shamwari wrote: »

The MK3's are indeed cleared and I used one several times in '96 to go to Belfast. The topping and tailing bit (engine either end) could be a problem due to that practice not being cleared. Also I'm not sure about the electrics bit though. Think a generator van might be needed as HEP possibly can't be used to power the Mk3's. but I'm not an expert on these things..:p

The 201s can be used to provide HEP but, like with the DD sets, only under extreme pressure. There would be no need to use 2 201s on any given train as you would most likely continue to use the Mk3 gen vans.

dowlingm

I estimate the chances of Mark 3s ever carrying passengers again to be approximately zero, so let's not get too bothered about whether the RSC and the UK rail regulator would allow top and tail

icdg

dowlingm wrote: »

I estimate the chances of Mark 3s ever carrying passengers again to be approximately zero, so let's not get too bothered about whether the RSC and the UK rail regulator would allow top and tail

The UK Office of Rail Regulation, believe it or not, has absolutely no powers in Northern Ireland. Their rail legislation is completely seperate from GB.

BenShermin

markpb wrote: »

Is the bus time reliable? The N1 between the DPT portals and Whitehall can be really bad in the mornings.

Being honest, I don't know. Whenever I've been on off peak buses between Belfast and Dublin they are always on-time or a few minutes early.

I also note that the bus I mentioned is non-stop from Newry to Dublin Airport, and the airport is a drop off stop only so that it can leave before the timetable time if it's early.

dowlingm

icdg wrote: »

The UK Office of Rail Regulation, believe it or not, has absolutely no powers in Northern Ireland. Their rail legislation is completely seperate from GB.

Interesting. Who runs their show then?

foggy_lad

markpb wrote: »

Is the bus time reliable? The N1 between the DPT portals and Whitehall can be really bad in the mornings.

How reliable are the enterprise train times? it seems almost every day there is at least one train delayed by upwards of an hour whether by security mechanical or other forces.

positron

foggy_lad wrote: »

..it seems almost every day there is at least one train delayed by upwards of an hour whether by security mechanical or other forces.

Very good point. I recall a number of incidents were Enterprise service were targetted by antisocial elements (putting it politely, I should really say ignorant xenophobic animals with no sense of purpose or responsibility, but.. anyway). I wonder this would now make this new service irregular as well?

icdg

dowlingm wrote: »

Interesting. Who runs their show then?

As I understand it, on paper at least, the Health and Safey Executive for Northern Ireland do the health and safety regulation while the Department of Regional Development are the economic regulator.

In reality of course, as the Northern Ireland Transport Holding Company is essentially a state monopoly, it is its own regulator.

ardmacha

In reality of course, as the Northern Ireland Transport Holding Company is essentially a state monopoly, it is its own regulator.

If these matters are devolved, why don't they simply use the same standards for the train safety systems as IR and save a lot of hassle?

L1011

ardmacha wrote: »

If these matters are devolved, why don't they simply use the same standards for the train safety systems as IR and save a lot of hassle?

Because they'd need to refit every single trainset, their three locos, signal control centres, the works basically?

shamwari

MYOB wrote: »

Because they'd need to refit every single trainset, their three locos, signal control centres, the works basically?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't their 5 loco's and the CAF railcars already fitted with these?